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Carrier issue.
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Seeker's's
Praid-inc
#1 - 2014-01-04 04:55:07 UTC
I was wondering if those carriers are going to be rebalanced because
1. They can assist drones to ships with low scan resolution and in big fight u get an awefull instapopper. At the same time u may easily miss the lock from a trigger ship in 1k+ overview.
2. Untill recently (and now too if the fix doesn't help) they could easily avoid or disengage a losing fight by several deploying+abandoning drones to crush the battle node.

Maybe anyone's aware if somefink is gonna be done about it or "high-level pvp" will remain wrecked for another year on.
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#2 - 2014-01-04 06:14:58 UTC
1) Lots of people want a nerf, but the real issue is with drone assist, not carriers. Don't expect carriers to exit the equation just because drone assist is nerfed. CCP hasn't announced anything either way.

2) No one has actually done this, and if they did, CCP would likely hit at least their FC with a ban hammer. Now it is true that a large fleet of carriers contributes more to server load on a per ship basis than most subcaps, but bringing 1500 people to fight 500 also contributes to server load, I suspect a lot more so then the 200 carriers.
Seeker's's
Praid-inc
#3 - 2014-01-04 13:48:57 UTC
Well, close to what I expected. Maybe there's a discussion topic here about ways to fix this? I'd appreciate a link.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#4 - 2014-01-04 14:13:50 UTC
Secret Squirrell wrote:
1) Lots of people want a nerf, but the real issue is with drone assist, not carriers. Don't expect carriers to exit the equation just because drone assist is nerfed. CCP hasn't announced anything either way.

2) No one has actually done this, and if they did, CCP would likely hit at least their FC with a ban hammer. Now it is true that a large fleet of carriers contributes more to server load on a per ship basis than most subcaps, but bringing 1500 people to fight 500 also contributes to server load, I suspect a lot more so then the 200 carriers.


1500 ships, perhaps with 5 drones each = 9000 entities
200 carriers with 10 drones each = 2200 entities

But lets take 1500 carriers ... 10 drones each = 16500 entities


Carriers are a problem as they scale rapidly in the number of entities to look after - server load is HUGE. The sad part about 1500 carriers and one ship controlling 15000 drones is .. its about as broken as it gets in the game.

Make the bonus for carriers be one of drone damage/tracking/hitpoints per level to make them match what 10 drones would give and ti would push the number of entities down, it wouldn't solve the problem of assist.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#5 - 2014-01-04 15:07:43 UTC
This is the long term result of the game balance we've seen thus far. capitals are still stuck in the "this ship is patently awful never fly it" era
Alcorak
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-01-05 20:57:56 UTC
I think that if you have 1500 carriers, you're less concerned with node crashing and more concerned with popping everything around you.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#7 - 2014-01-05 22:01:27 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Secret Squirrell wrote:
1) Lots of people want a nerf, but the real issue is with drone assist, not carriers. Don't expect carriers to exit the equation just because drone assist is nerfed. CCP hasn't announced anything either way.

2) No one has actually done this, and if they did, CCP would likely hit at least their FC with a ban hammer. Now it is true that a large fleet of carriers contributes more to server load on a per ship basis than most subcaps, but bringing 1500 people to fight 500 also contributes to server load, I suspect a lot more so then the 200 carriers.


1500 ships, perhaps with 5 drones each = 9000 entities
200 carriers with 10 drones each = 2200 entities

But lets take 1500 carriers ... 10 drones each = 16500 entities


Carriers are a problem as they scale rapidly in the number of entities to look after - server load is HUGE. The sad part about 1500 carriers and one ship controlling 15000 drones is .. its about as broken as it gets in the game.

Make the bonus for carriers be one of drone damage/tracking/hitpoints per level to make them match what 10 drones would give and ti would push the number of entities down, it wouldn't solve the problem of assist.


I don't know if it's fair to say that 1500 carriers are worse than 1500 Drakes. 1500 Navy Drakes with 3 volleys in the air would have 1500*(5+1+3*8) = 45000 entities on the field. What's worse than that is that due to the way fleet warps and fleet tactics work you'll have 256*(1+8+5)=3584 entities in the same octree cube to make collision detection and culling just that much more fun. Blink

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-01-06 04:14:55 UTC
back in the day they used to crash nodes by exploding a freighter full of cargo containers on purpose....

now its drones.

solution is of course to remove drones and missiles from 'real object' category, have them exist only server-side, but it will require redesign of smartbombs, defender missiles, bombs, etc..

but if CCP could simplify the drone calculations, it would be nice. Instead of actual drone models flying back and forth, you could have a 'cloud' for example with nice visual effect, and that 'cloud' is the drone cloud - like an aura around a ship that is a sentry cloud, applying constant damage like a DoT, or a moving cloud that can be shot, signifying swarm or regular nano drones....

major rework to be sure, but it would make calculations easier.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#9 - 2014-01-06 09:34:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Secret Squirrell wrote:
2) No one has actually done this, and if they did, CCP would likely hit at least their FC with a ban hammer. Now it is true that a large fleet of carriers contributes more to server load on a per ship basis than most subcaps, but bringing 1500 people to fight 500 also contributes to server load, I suspect a lot more so then the 200 carriers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vG6cnS4BsQ
watch carefully @3.00 and 5.10 timemarks. Node has crashed, titans/carriers saved, no one is banned.

9000 drones that were left in space created 10% TiDi even with 100 players in local after node was restarted. GMs were called and had to clear grid manually.

Liang Nuren wrote:
I don't know if it's fair to say that 1500 carriers are worse than 1500 Drakes. 1500 Navy Drakes with 3 volleys in the air would have 1500*(5+1+3*8) = 45000 entities on the field. What's worse than that is that due to the way fleet warps and fleet tactics work you'll have 256*(1+8+5)=3584 entities in the same octree cube to make collision detection and culling just that much more fun. Blink

-Liang

1500 drakes means there are 1500 pilots on grid which makes fight that much more fun. Also with recent buff to heavy missiles' velocity (and overall nerf to range) it is highly unlikely to have 3 volleys in space at the same time.
but 200 carriers are only 200 players that create too much strain on the system by abandoning and deploying cheap t1 sentries from bottomless dronebay/cargo (including collision checks with all those drones and carriers and probably supers jumping in that blob of drones).

Solution is rather tricky one: limit carriers to fighters only, 5 fighters per carrier, change assist mechanic to assign (player cannot control more drones that his skills allow him to), buff fighters (make drone modules affect them maybe?)

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#10 - 2014-01-06 13:29:38 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Secret Squirrell wrote:
2) No one has actually done this, and if they did, CCP would likely hit at least their FC with a ban hammer. Now it is true that a large fleet of carriers contributes more to server load on a per ship basis than most subcaps, but bringing 1500 people to fight 500 also contributes to server load, I suspect a lot more so then the 200 carriers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vG6cnS4BsQ
watch carefully @3.00 and 5.10 timemarks. Node has crashed, titans/carriers saved, no one is banned.

9000 drones that were left in space created 10% TiDi even with 100 players in local after node was restarted. GMs were called and had to clear grid manually.

Liang Nuren wrote:
I don't know if it's fair to say that 1500 carriers are worse than 1500 Drakes. 1500 Navy Drakes with 3 volleys in the air would have 1500*(5+1+3*8) = 45000 entities on the field. What's worse than that is that due to the way fleet warps and fleet tactics work you'll have 256*(1+8+5)=3584 entities in the same octree cube to make collision detection and culling just that much more fun. Blink

-Liang

1500 drakes means there are 1500 pilots on grid which makes fight that much more fun. Also with recent buff to heavy missiles' velocity (and overall nerf to range) it is highly unlikely to have 3 volleys in space at the same time.
but 200 carriers are only 200 players that create too much strain on the system by abandoning and deploying cheap t1 sentries from bottomless dronebay/cargo (including collision checks with all those drones and carriers and probably supers jumping in that blob of drones).

Solution is rather tricky one: limit carriers to fighters only, 5 fighters per carrier, change assist mechanic to assign (player cannot control more drones that his skills allow him to), buff fighters (make drone modules affect them maybe?)


If you change carriers so that the only drones they can use are 5 fighters with a ship bonus on them and with Drone mos working on fighters the effect wil be scarry:

1500 dps 'ceptors? and that just my first thought.
Old Phill
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-01-06 13:49:45 UTC
Solution to this whole drone assist thing is give drones a lock time equal to their owners ship so that would be its not just insta alpha in theory all the ppl with max 5 skills would be the same time but it basicly means the owner has to lock the target even though they wouldnt
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-01-06 14:39:12 UTC
My suggestion in another 'Kill drone assist' thread is that the number of drones a pilot can have assisting him/her is governed by the number of drones she/he can pilot themself. This makes sense as for the drones to target the assistee's primary victim they must be interfaced to the assistees targeting systems, i.e the pilot must be controlling them to some degree.

This does mean that you can have pilots flying more drones than they can usually carry in their small interceptor, but at least then the massive firepower would come from co-ordinated fleet action instead of one person vaporizing each ship in turn.

Maybe another idea could be that large numbers of ships/drones in a condensed area have an AOE effect on sig radius for ships of equal or smaller size. This would represent the targeting computers having to sift the myriad cluttered returns for that group of frigs running through the 1000's of drones sigs.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#13 - 2014-01-06 18:49:23 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:

1500 drakes means there are 1500 pilots on grid which makes fight that much more fun. Also with recent buff to heavy missiles' velocity (and overall nerf to range) it is highly unlikely to have 3 volleys in space at the same time.
but 200 carriers are only 200 players that create too much strain on the system by abandoning and deploying cheap t1 sentries from bottomless dronebay/cargo (including collision checks with all those drones and carriers and probably supers jumping in that blob of drones).

Solution is rather tricky one: limit carriers to fighters only, 5 fighters per carrier, change assist mechanic to assign (player cannot control more drones that his skills allow him to), buff fighters (make drone modules affect them maybe?)


You seem to have not read what I was responding to. I was responding to the idea that X number of carriers is worse for server load than X of any other ship. I provided an example that is potentially (and has historically been) a lot worse than carriers. I don't think that you need to look for ways to nerf them, or to nerf drones any more than you need to look for ways to nerf Drakes or nerf missiles.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-01-06 19:48:58 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:

1500 drakes means there are 1500 pilots on grid which makes fight that much more fun. Also with recent buff to heavy missiles' velocity (and overall nerf to range) it is highly unlikely to have 3 volleys in space at the same time.
but 200 carriers are only 200 players that create too much strain on the system by abandoning and deploying cheap t1 sentries from bottomless dronebay/cargo (including collision checks with all those drones and carriers and probably supers jumping in that blob of drones).

Solution is rather tricky one: limit carriers to fighters only, 5 fighters per carrier, change assist mechanic to assign (player cannot control more drones that his skills allow him to), buff fighters (make drone modules affect them maybe?)


You seem to have not read what I was responding to. I was responding to the idea that X number of carriers is worse for server load than X of any other ship. I provided an example that is potentially (and has historically been) a lot worse than carriers. I don't think that you need to look for ways to nerf them, or to nerf drones any more than you need to look for ways to nerf Drakes or nerf missiles.

-Liang


AFAIK, The 8 missiles are counted as 1 if volleyed, same with gun grouping.
IMHO, drone assist needs major nerf and as a far away goal, the whole 'entity' engine will need work or at the very least upscaling.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#15 - 2014-01-07 02:03:39 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:

AFAIK, The 8 missiles are counted as 1 if volleyed, same with gun grouping.
IMHO, drone assist needs major nerf and as a far away goal, the whole 'entity' engine will need work or at the very least upscaling.


Yes, but we are talking about worse case scenarios here - and the worst case for missiles is significantly higher than for carriers. However, even if we're talking about carriers vs group missile NDrakes:
10/carrier vs (3+5+1)=9/Ndrake.

Basically if you want to argue that drone assist needs a nerf then don't try to justify it based on "server load" semantics that you may or may not have an understanding of.

-Liang

Ed: Also, all of the **** about preventing carriers from even using drones. What the ****, seriously?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#16 - 2014-01-07 06:57:44 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Secret Squirrell wrote:
2) No one has actually done this, and if they did, CCP would likely hit at least their FC with a ban hammer. Now it is true that a large fleet of carriers contributes more to server load on a per ship basis than most subcaps, but bringing 1500 people to fight 500 also contributes to server load, I suspect a lot more so then the 200 carriers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vG6cnS4BsQ
watch carefully @3.00 and 5.10 timemarks. Node has crashed, titans/carriers saved, no one is banned.

9000 drones that were left in space created 10% TiDi even with 100 players in local after node was restarted. GMs were called and had to clear grid manually.


Except in that fight, the side with carriers was the side that was in the process of massacring enemy dreads when the node went down. All the drones were the result of the natural progression of the fight.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Also, all of the **** about preventing carriers from even using drones. What the ****, seriously?

Its standard tactics amongst certain entities, that when they are unable to overcome a tactic on the battlefield, to try to get it nerfed into the ground. They aren't sure that a drone assist nerf will be enough for them to overcome slowcats, so they propose something much more radical. Limit carriers to fighters, can only carry 1-2 flights, bomb fighters twice, battle won. Supers already have that problem, but it is somewhat balanced by the insane DPS of fighter bombers.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#17 - 2014-01-07 11:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Seeker's's wrote:
I was wondering if those carriers are going to be rebalanced because
1. They can assist drones to ships with low scan resolution and in big fight u get an awefull instapopper. At the same time u may easily miss the lock from a trigger ship in 1k+ overview.
2. Untill recently (and now too if the fix doesn't help) they could easily avoid or disengage a losing fight by several deploying+abandoning drones to crush the battle node.

Maybe anyone's aware if somefink is gonna be done about it or "high-level pvp" will remain wrecked for another year on.


no, carriers arent the issue.
They are issue for your alliance/coalition, because it is not willing to field the counter in shape of dread fleets/supers.
Bigger fish eats smaller fish, thats the way of this game and always been this way.

Seeker's's wrote:
Maybe anyone's aware if somefink is gonna be done about it or "high-level pvp" will remain wrecked for another year on.

so, fielding 1500 dudes half of which are frig sized trash is "high-level-pvp" you say?
There is real high level pvp happening right in front of you, but you refuse to take on it.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#18 - 2014-01-07 14:13:14 UTC
Oddly descended into the 'we use this, you suck, we win, you cant defeat it' type discussion.

One thing that bears out from the simple analysis is that carriers and the multiplicity of their drones can cause server load issues, as well as exploit an unforseen broken mechanic. Sentry boat buffs illustrate this as well.

So my idea would be to reduce drone numbers on carrier but up their stats per level. 5 uber sentries rather than 10.

For assistance, make it squad leader can be assisted by 25, Wing 50, Fleet 250. Fielding a fleet commander for the job would be interesting and risky.

Of course, changing both would mean that 25 would be '50' with the new buffed carrier drones, and 250 would be 500 ....
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#19 - 2014-01-07 19:54:58 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Of course, changing both would mean that 25 would be '50' with the new buffed carrier drones, and 250 would be 500 ....


I know that you don't care too much about unexpected side effects of nerfing things you don't like, but there are a lot of semantics with non-combat drones that can't really be emulated this way. Again, I want to reiterate the idea that you should suggest nerfs based on game imbalances instead of your perceived server load issues.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Seeker's's
Praid-inc
#20 - 2014-01-09 00:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Seeker's's
GE-8 faced a battle of 3k players involved some time ago and there was TiDi ofc. But guess what? It was completely OK, it wasn't goddamn 1%, the node wasn't convulsed. Why not?
There were neither drone fleets nor carriers involved.

I just dunno, I personally no wanna spoil anyone's super-fleet or anomaly farm or stuff, but gosh, I hope CCP at least admit this problem and start fixing it.
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