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Honor in Modern Combat

Author
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#61 - 2011-11-17 09:21:13 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:

If you lose a cheaply-fitted frigate in a duel, you won't exactly be losing any sleep over it.

If you lose a pirate battleship worth more than a billion ISk and several thousand crew members along with it, then you might suffer for the loss.

Nothing risked, nothing won. In general, solo-piloted frigates are children's toys.



You clearly have no understanding of frigate combat and the mentality it entails whatsoever. There is plenty risked, particularly reputation! If you lose a frigate, it is simply because of your own lack of skill, tactical reasoning, fitting correctly, and things of that nature. In other words, you are not able to point fingers at the crew and place any blame on them. This, truly, is why frigates are suitable for dueling.
Codo Yagari
Carmine Industries
#62 - 2011-11-17 10:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Codo Yagari
Silas Vitalia wrote:
True Amarrians do not take lessons on morality from those not of the blood.

A true Amarrian would know good advise when it is heard.

Fundamental aspects of the good faith are "universal", "all is one" and "love". A true Amarrian knows this, and humbles himself when faced with the grandeur of the rest of the universe. He does not go around thinking he is better than everything else. A true Amarrian is humble, not inflated with visions of his own grandeur.

Also, all this talk about immortality. Dont you know that it is established belief that all beings are considered immortal, it is well known and many millenium old. Thus it is also quite irrelevant and carries no value if you live a billion years, what matters is how you live your life, and in what condition you keep your soul. Thus, being immortal is not necessarily a blessing, if it is a life spent in ignorance and vain.

Humble yourself and be considerate. Lower your head and keep it lower than anyone elses. See to that which is best for the one next to you, and put your self in the 2nd room. And remember, speech may be silver, but silence is gold.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#63 - 2011-11-17 13:52:15 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
The only thing that is at stake is your own assertion that the person is wrong for having said what they did, and that by besting them in combat, you are asserting dominance over them and devaluating their claim, shaming them and punishing them for their impudence. There can be nothing else to it if it is to be a duel for honor, which was the topic of the discussion.


Would that this were so. In a perfect world perhaps. It is a rare capsuleer that would see something that does not effect their pocketbooks or recruitment quotas as mattering much to them, and sees duels as more than cheap sport for diversion.


My insistence on raising the stakes forces those sorts to have something at risk, when honor means nothing to them. See?


Sabik now, Sabik forever

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#64 - 2011-11-17 13:57:09 UTC
Codo Yagari wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:
True Amarrians do not take lessons on morality from those not of the blood.

A true Amarrian would know good advise when it is heard.

Fundamental aspects of the good faith are "universal", "all is one" and "love". A true Amarrian knows this, and humbles himself when faced with the grandeur of the rest of the universe. He does not go around thinking he is better than everything else. A true Amarrian is humble, not inflated with visions of his own grandeur.

Also, all this talk about immortality. Dont you know that it is established belief that all beings are considered immortal, it is well known and many millenium old. Thus it is also quite irrelevant and carries no value if you live a billion years, what matters is how you live your life, and in what condition you keep your soul. Thus, being immortal is not necessarily a blessing, if it is a life spent in ignorance and vain.

Humble yourself and be considerate. Lower your head and keep it lower than anyone elses. See to that which is best for the one next to you, and put your self in the 2nd room. And remember, speech may be silver, but silence is gold.


If Humility were the chief aspect of the faith we would still be chanting in caves on Athra, instead of having bent it to our will. We would still be confined to a single continent on a single planet, instead of spreading our will to billions.

Perhaps we should continue this privately however as I have allowed things to stray off topic. A rare apology to the OP for a breach in manors.


Sabik now, Sabik forever

Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-11-19 05:45:35 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:

By saying you are willing to kill thousands of your own crew members (and yes: by choosing to bring them willingly knowing they will die, you are killing them yourself) to preserve your own honor, I wonder if you have any to preserve in the first place.

It is impractical, dishonorable and inhumane to use large crews in duels when you are perfectly capable of restoring your honor in a less costly (for others uninvolved in petty squabbles between capsuleers) manner.


True Amarrians do not take lessons on morality from those not of the blood. How to put this nicely.... it would be anathema for one such as myself to take moral or spiritual succor from a heathen half-breed. Your opinion is duly noted, however.



I was not aware that birth had anything to do with morality, as opposed to the choices we make. Interesting.

It's pretty clear we are very different people.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2011-11-20 08:46:37 UTC
While it has been interesting to view the wandering thoughts of those who have voiced their opinion here I find the original point to be mute and lost.

Honour has always been a simple thing to me. Put in layman terms it is merely the way one handles the consequences of ones choices. Nothing more, nothing less. To have great honour is to accept responsibility, in the given example if the pilot who lost his ship in a 1v1 duel that turned out to be a 1v5 fight accepted the defeat with grace and dignity, accepting that the loss was his responsibility then I would state that the pilot was honourable. Likewise, if he instead placed the blame on his opponent then I would argue that the pilot was not as honourable as he might have been.
Understand, the outcome of the fight is irrelevant in assessing his/her honour, merely the way in-which they DEAL with that outcome. Whether or not the loss was due to underhanded tactics or not the pilots honour is shown through his actions and words.

"Chivalry" is however another thing entirely and is very easy to determine. Every warrior society has held a similar code in the past and in some cases, continue to maintain some kind of code. One need only analyse a "chivalrous" pilots actions and cross-reference them with their code of honour in order to determine if they are chivalrous or not. That said, the true test comes when you must make a choice to maintain your code, or to make the easy choice. Especially if that choice is made "in the dark" where nobody but you will know the outcome.

Personally I have always tried to follow a simple set of rules: Do the best you can with what you've got, Do as little harm as is reasonably possible to as few people as you can, and in all fairness let no one call you a hypocrite.



On a side note, why do you continue to debate with Miss Vitalia on this matter of crew safety in duals? She has already made it abundantly clear that her position is not falsifiable, there is no reason what-so-ever to continue to any debate.
I truly mean no offence by that Miss Vitalia by the way. It is merely my experience that Amarrian people tend to argue from a position of faith rather than reason and while I do not believe one or the other to be superior one cannot reasonably argue from the position of faith because faith is not falsifiable and in order to hold reasonable discourse both parties position must be falsifiable or there is no rational reason to hold the debate in the first place.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#67 - 2011-11-23 18:27:04 UTC
Kel hound wrote:

Put in layman terms it is merely the way one handles the consequences of ones choices.
[...]
Understand, the outcome of the fight is irrelevant in assessing his/her honour, merely the way in-which they DEAL with that outcome. Whether or not the loss was due to underhanded tactics or not the pilots honour is shown through his actions and words.

An interesting perspective on the matter. It's less about whether or not there was underhanded tactics, then, and more about whether or not the pilot(s) took the proper action and held up to their word?

Kel Hound wrote:

"Chivalry" is however another thing entirely and is very easy to determine. Every warrior society has held a similar code in the past and in some cases, continue to maintain some kind of code. One need only analyse a "chivalrous" pilots actions and cross-reference them with their code of honour in order to determine if they are chivalrous or not. That said, the true test comes when you must make a choice to maintain your code, or to make the easy choice. Especially if that choice is made "in the dark" where nobody but you will know the outcome.

Choices made in the dark, where only you know the outcome, are perhaps the most trying. Too often do people think of the stereotypical swordsman saving his lady from a tower when they think of "chivalry", and thus there's many many stereotypes and misconceptions about the chivalric mindset. Put in an expression, I'd say chivalry is "helping and defending the weak and needy".

Kel Hound wrote:

On a side note, why do you continue to debate with Miss Vitalia on this matter of crew safety in duals?
[...]
It is merely my experience that Amarrian people tend to argue from a position of faith rather than reason and while I do not believe one or the other to be superior one cannot reasonably argue from the position of faith because faith is not falsifiable and in order to hold reasonable discourse both parties position must be falsifiable or there is no rational reason to hold the debate in the first place.

If I continue to debate with her (which, for the sake of keeping this thread on-track I won't), I'd at the very least be showing the rest of the public her views. Perhaps some young would-be midshipman might reconsider signing up to crew her ship, if such word got around.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#68 - 2011-11-23 19:36:57 UTC
Mr. Hound,

I will agree with you on one point, in that accepting personal responsibility is extremely important in our lives. It touches all aspects of our lives as capsuleers; how we carry ourselves, how we interact with others, etc. This goes to my earlier point that your reputation is what truly matters, be it good or bad.



Rek Jaiga wrote:
I'd at the very least be showing the rest of the public her views. Perhaps some young would-be midshipman might reconsider signing up to crew her ship, if such word got around.


My views are well known. Taking a brief look at your own combat record Jaiga it would appear ship crews are far, far safer in my ships than in yours. Perhaps "word should get around" about you? Twisted



Sabik now, Sabik forever

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-11-23 19:39:21 UTC
Honor is something reserved when you are among friends.

The enemy like you, is a wolf. The wolf will not hold back and will take the opportunity when the time is right.

Eat or be eaten.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#70 - 2011-11-24 03:32:41 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:

My views are well known. Taking a brief look at your own combat record Jaiga it would appear ship crews are far, far safer in my ships than in yours. Perhaps "word should get around" about you? Twisted




You mean the hordes upon hordes of frigates? Yes, those. But bits of metal and pride, Lady Vitalia.

Now, on the occasion that I am out and about in something larger and I lose it, rest assured that I'm quite angry for the rest of the week. Have you ever wondered why I've adopted such pro-frigate stances?