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Drone's getting nerfed?
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Prie Mary
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#241 - 2014-01-04 19:57:31 UTC
Changing a pretty big game mechanic because a few thousand people are loosing a war when it would impact on EVERY player is surely a great business model to follow.

3000 > rest of eve population - CCP doesn't have favourite'sQuestion

Dont just [u]think[/u] outside the box, [u]Live[/u] outside of it...
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#242 - 2014-01-04 20:07:34 UTC
all in all they're doing a pretty bad job w/r/t achieving their coalition's ~prime directive~ if they call that "winning"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#243 - 2014-01-04 21:07:05 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Can't you stay over there, with the kids who don't know what they're talking about?

Why should he? He's making as much sense as you are. Maybe you need to stand in the corner.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#244 - 2014-01-04 21:14:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:
Use 500 Megas then?



Still not enough and we would be losing one mega every cycle or two of the sentry drones.

If it was as simple as throwing a few hundred mega at the problem we wouldn't be working on getting dreads that do have the firepower to alpha them



still no one has explained why you should only need sub capitals to fight a sov war?

as i recall the standard for cfc is out blob with sub caps and as soon as the other side gives up they break out the super caps and take out all the sov stuff...

goons say caps should need sub caps for a fleet fight so why does this not work backwards and mean that sub caps needs caps to fight a sov war?

the thing is the cfc does not want to use caps because they are not confident enough to use them and then complain about game mechanics.

the best part is the cfc decided to participate in this war they chose to become members of it... if they wanted they could go home and defend thier space and use boots to do it... but yet they choose to go on the offensive and then complain that the other side is using capitals to defend stuff that takes capitals to kill... FML

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#245 - 2014-01-04 22:08:09 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Can't you stay over there, with the kids who don't know what they're talking about?

Why should he? He's making as much sense as you are. Maybe you need to stand in the corner.

This whole forum is "the corner"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#246 - 2014-01-04 22:08:58 UTC
Andski wrote:
all in all they're doing a pretty bad job w/r/t achieving their coalition's ~prime directive~ if they call that "winning"

Wait wait, I thought we were ~done for~ because of test.

Is test part of n3

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#247 - 2014-01-04 22:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
MeBiatch wrote:
still no one has explained why you should only need sub capitals to fight a sov war?

Nobody said anything of the sort.
The only requirement should be that you shouldn't require supercapitals to fight a sov war, since that could potentially lock non-sov-holders out of sov entirely. As it is now, this is the case, although supercapitals tend to make sov war a lot easier as long as you're not stupid with them.

MeBiatch wrote:
the best part is the cfc decided to participate in this war they chose to become members of it... if they wanted they could go home and defend thier space and use boots to do it... but yet they choose to go on the offensive and then complain that the other side is using capitals to defend stuff that takes capitals to kill... FML

We've used boots before. We've seen boots used before. Nobody quite realized how overpowered they were until N3PL started spamming several hundred of them per battle. Kind of like how a lone titan was never really that powerful (after remote DD was removed), but fleets of tracking titans massacred everything in their path with absolute impunity.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#248 - 2014-01-04 22:29:42 UTC
remote aoe doomsday titans

much cost

so balanced

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#249 - 2014-01-05 01:31:06 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Once again, while the blob-seccer's whinge, the bulk of Eve cares not one whit about the issues a tiny minority of the player base has, especially since it is self-inflicted.

Where we do care is when your whining and CCP caving to your demands affects gameplay for the majority of the playerbase.

But it is a fait accompli.

goons batphone CCP, and CCP does what is demanded of them by goons.
Been that way for a long time now.

This would be a so much more dynamic game if CCP got its collective head of its ass and realized that catering to the tiny minority in this game is terrible business sense, then ignored their crying, dismantled the game mechanics and meta that created this mess in the first place, and re-created null sec mechanics that precluded any giant blue blankets.

Absolutely. Unfortunately since the CSM election process is stacked to ensure that only the alliances are represented - you and I will never likely get to meet and talk to a dev face to face while the alliance CSM reps get free flights to Iceland, sit down at CCP HQ to recommend 'changes'... the alliances want.

I think what Baltec understands but pretends he doesn't is 'A' counter to slow cats (capitals) is dreads (capitals) its not the only counter. Another is subcapitals but of course being subcapitals you need a lot more vs an archon. If 300 is not enough, 400 is not enough, adding more will eventually be 'enough'. That's how it works. So stop whining and add more.

Mega's and bombers... bombers add more to that 13 seconds. They wipe sentries or cause redeployment, while inflicting damage and masking which archon is being primaried.

But really, the reason capitals exist is to kill capitals, the fact GS is too scared to drop caps is not a very good excuse to nerf a doctrine that another group is currently using with good effect. You cannot nerf that during a war. Before or afterwards fine. GS should have been smarter, they knew about slowcats before they started, they knew they would be used. Why punish someone else for GS tactical errors?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#250 - 2014-01-05 02:45:41 UTC
There's a lot of people in this thread who make me laugh, as their arguments towards an idea of what they think EVE should be about is just as bias as anyone they are arguing against, but refuse to see it.

The people on the "N3/NCDot/PL Side" of the debate basically say there's not a problem with anything at all and they think it's fine for 300 guys to be easily be able to take on about 600 other guys and win. Their arguments for this are always the same, counters that don't exist (or allegedly do exist, but refuse to explain what they are) or counters that are ridiculous (Why don't you just bring 600 Battleships into a node that keeps crashing every time you get 600 people into it?) or even just think it's fine due to cash/SP investment in capital ships.

What it boils down to is they don't like the fact the CFC has grown in size so large that no other single entity in the game can stand up to it in terms of numbers. I'm not saying every fight in the history of EVE has to be won on numbers, but generally if you're outnumbered 2:1 you should get your arse kicked.

The counter to capitals ships is, of course, capital ships according to these people. So they don't want a world where the numerical superiority of subcaps wins, but instead want a world where the numerical superiority of capitals win.

Unless you're actually in NCDot/N3/PL I struggle to see why you would want their playstyle to triumph. The CFC is held together by a good leadership team within GSF and across the CFC alliances, and that is what provides it it's strength (numbers). The moment those links start breaking and falling apart, the whole thing will become a free for all. It may take a while but it will probably happen some day.

The more "elite" view of the world though means anyone not already in the lead will get left well behind, the rental income from NCdot, PL and N3 will keep them well ahead of the rest of the galaxy in terms of capital and super capital numbers, and no-one will be able to challenge them. It would take outside intervention from CCP to change that balance.

Personally if I were on the fences if I had to pick between one group or the other dominating nullsec politics I'd pick the one that could fall apart if everyone starts arguing amongst themselves rather than the ones that will retain their position indefinitely through bizarre mechanics. I've played a game before where players were able to "level up" to infinite levels and the distance over a few years of playing they could put between themselves and the starting players was so huge it killed any real PvP action in the game.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#251 - 2014-01-05 02:52:52 UTC
You're just a goon pet or something.

progodlegend is salvation for the dying EvE online.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#252 - 2014-01-05 02:55:25 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
The counter to capitals ships is, of course, capital ships according to these people. So they don't want a world where the numerical superiority of subcaps wins, but instead want a world where the numerical superiority of capitals win.

So basically, the ones blobbing more caps.

It's a good thing the omegafleet concept has utterly failed and will be the last thing blobbers like us try before being stamped out by a wrecking ball of supercapitals

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#253 - 2014-01-05 03:11:08 UTC
I like this "CCP shouldn't do rebalancing during wars" argument.
Because alliances totally wouldn't start wars just to prevent CCP from nerfing things.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#254 - 2014-01-05 03:13:37 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I like this "CCP shouldn't do rebalancing during wars" argument.
Because alliances totally wouldn't start wars just to prevent CCP from nerfing things.

1. Find overpowered doctrine
2. Keep a war active by shooting CVA or someone endlessly
3. Profit :)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#255 - 2014-01-05 03:36:48 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
There's a lot of people in this thread who make me laugh, as their arguments towards an idea of what they think EVE should be about is just as bias as anyone they are arguing against, but refuse to see it.

The people on the "N3/NCDot/PL Side" of the debate basically say there's not a problem with anything at all and they think it's fine for 300 guys to be easily be able to take on about 600 other guys and win. Their arguments for this are always the same, counters that don't exist (or allegedly do exist, but refuse to explain what they are) or counters that are ridiculous (Why don't you just bring 600 Battleships into a node that keeps crashing every time you get 600 people into it?) or even just think it's fine due to cash/SP investment in capital ships.

What it boils down to is they don't like the fact the CFC has grown in size so large that no other single entity in the game can stand up to it in terms of numbers. I'm not saying every fight in the history of EVE has to be won on numbers, but generally if you're outnumbered 2:1 you should get your arse kicked.

The counter to capitals ships is, of course, capital ships according to these people. So they don't want a world where the numerical superiority of subcaps wins, but instead want a world where the numerical superiority of capitals win.

Unless you're actually in NCDot/N3/PL I struggle to see why you would want their playstyle to triumph. The CFC is held together by a good leadership team within GSF and across the CFC alliances, and that is what provides it it's strength (numbers). The moment those links start breaking and falling apart, the whole thing will become a free for all. It may take a while but it will probably happen some day.

The more "elite" view of the world though means anyone not already in the lead will get left well behind, the rental income from NCdot, PL and N3 will keep them well ahead of the rest of the galaxy in terms of capital and super capital numbers, and no-one will be able to challenge them. It would take outside intervention from CCP to change that balance.

Personally if I were on the fences if I had to pick between one group or the other dominating nullsec politics I'd pick the one that could fall apart if everyone starts arguing amongst themselves rather than the ones that will retain their position indefinitely through bizarre mechanics. I've played a game before where players were able to "level up" to infinite levels and the distance over a few years of playing they could put between themselves and the starting players was so huge it killed any real PvP action in the game.


So you think 600 rifters should beat 300 megathrons?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2014-01-05 03:46:44 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
So you think 600 rifters should beat 300 megathrons?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what he actually said.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#257 - 2014-01-05 04:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
So you think 600 rifters should beat 300 megathrons?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what he actually said.


Actually he did

Quote:
The people on the "N3/NCDot/PL Side" of the debate basically say there's not a problem with anything at all and they think it's fine for 300 guys to be easily be able to take on about 600 other guys and win


600 rifters vs 300 bs is the same as 600 bs vs 300 caps

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#258 - 2014-01-05 04:14:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
So you think 600 rifters should beat 300 megathrons?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what he actually said.

Numbers can and will defeat slowcats. Goons murdered Test with 2000 pilots to kick them out of fountain. Pretending you couldn't field 600 megathrons to beat 300 Archons is bullshite. Or how about megas and dreads or supers, or titans. Stop lying, stop being afraid of losses, you don't win every war through decisive victories, some wars need to be fought through attrition.

The Russians beat a superior force in WW2 with numbers, they just had to take losses (massive ones), but they did win. Same strategy will work here. Maybe you won't get decisive victories in one battle but it's going to be lot easier to replace subcaps than it'll be to replace carriers.



CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#259 - 2014-01-05 04:20:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
So you think 600 rifters should beat 300 megathrons?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what he actually said.

600 rifters huh...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#260 - 2014-01-05 05:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Infinity Ziona wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
So you think 600 rifters should beat 300 megathrons?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what he actually said.

Numbers can and will defeat slowcats. Goons murdered Test with 2000 pilots to kick them out of fountain. Pretending you couldn't field 600 megathrons to beat 300 Archons is bullshite. Or how about megas and dreads or supers, or titans. Stop lying, stop being afraid of losses, you don't win every war through decisive victories, some wars need to be fought through attrition.

The Russians beat a superior force in WW2 with numbers, they just had to take losses (massive ones), but they did win. Same strategy will work here. Maybe you won't get decisive victories in one battle but it's going to be lot easier to replace subcaps than it'll be to replace carriers.





I think the number is 1200 megas to be honest. Archons have 4m+ buffers and a big F1 fleet locking the archon will let the pilot know its time to remove the DDAs and add and overheat resists. (the mega is the wrong boat for defeating slowcats).

Archons move more effectively between non cyno jammed systems than megas do as well - megas have to retreat to the bridging titan or gate themselves - and gating a big fleet just mires the fleet in TIDI as you'll be on unreinforced nodes, ie battleship fleets are terrible at out moving cap fleets.