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Tier 1 Battlecruisers

Author
Orakkus
Southern Cross Monopoly
Flying Dangerous
#1 - 2011-11-23 17:57:25 UTC
Okay, now that we have the uberness of the Tier 3 Battlecruisers behind us, well, at least a little bit of it. What should we do with the old and classic Tier 1 Battlecruisers? For the sake of shameless posting and a desire to get more of a readership, I have broached this subject today here at my blog: 2nd Anomaly from the Left - Tier 1 Battlecruiser Love. That being said, and blatently advertised, I know I am not the only one out there with ideas on this and so I'd love to hear what other suggestions people have come up with.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-11-23 19:07:28 UTC
Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.
Slade Hoo
Retired Gunslingers
#3 - 2011-11-23 19:14:16 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.


This
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#4 - 2011-11-23 19:36:23 UTC
I disagree that tier 2's are too good. It's tier 1's could use a boost. I don't think they need much love, they just need their slots/HP/CPU/PG increased to be comparable to tier 2's (obviously mineral costs should go up too). All of them have their own little flavor, so no change in bonuses are needed. CS's would require slot adjustments as well to reflect their new tech 1 counterparts.

I think it's appropriate to also say why I think tier 2 BC's are fine as is since many think them overpowered. They fit into the brawler line up perfectly, being between BS's and cruisers (t1 or t2) in dps/tank. Now yes they can have BS level dps but then have cruiser tank or they can have cruiser dps with BS tank. But they can't have both at the same time. HAC's and other t2 cruisers make their name on mobility, not dps/tank. And there is no disputing that a vagabond, ishtar, zealot or cerberus has an overwhelming speed/agility advantage over even the quickest tier 2 BC's. The recons can claim the same too. Even CS's have their place.

CS's fit into the brawler lineup pretty well despite their unpopularity. They don't have any major advantage in dps or buffer, although both are slightly better. Their advantage is in resistance which results in logi being far more effective. The last few times I went out in a BS heavy fleet (ages ago tbh), I actually favored the absolution. I didn't regret that move despite being one of the higher priority targets for the opposing side. A good CS with skilled logi support is far more difficult to kill than a BS or t1 BC with the same logi support. And they don't have to sacrifice any dps to be that tough.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
#5 - 2011-11-23 19:43:49 UTC
I think one of the problems CCP faces with changing a Tiered system is that not only are the ships in that tier, but also the arbitrary cost of the BPO for the item. If either the Tier 2's were nerfed or the Tier 1's buffed, there would be an epic whine post that would never end over the advantage or disadvantage that current BPO owners have.

IIRC a Ferox BPO costs roughly 250M, and Drake close to 300M (estimate). If I've spent the last year researching the heck out of my BPO's, and all of a sudden CCP says that my Ferox BPO is way better, or my Drake BPO is way worse, you'd better believe there would be some forum posts.

To undo the tier system, they'd almost have to release "mk II" blueprints for whichever ship they decided to change. That doesn't sound like much fun for those of us that are in the research game.

Dunno...thats the best I can do.

Ced

Cedric

Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-11-23 19:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
I disagree that tier 2's are too good.


The vast blobs of Drakes and Hurricanes beg to differ.
Tier 1 BCs are not bad ships based on slot layout etc. - they're bad ships because tier 2s exist.

Quote:
Now yes they can have BS level dps but then have cruiser tank or they can have cruiser dps with BS tank.

Do you even play this game? It doesn't look like it.

To be honest, the only tier 1 BC that actually needs a rework is the Prophecy. Why? Because it's the only one where, if you nerfed its tier 2 counterpart, it would still be useless. It needs a distinct role or style. For example; making it a missile boat instead.
egola
NSFW federation
#7 - 2011-11-23 20:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: egola
one word: HELLCATS, tier 2 BCs aren't too good, they're too good for their PRICE. in a fight where both sides have equal numbers hellcats will beat the living carp out of Canes and Drakes, they have buffer but nowhere near BS extent, they also have dps but once again they don't have BS dps.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-11-23 20:36:58 UTC
Quote:
tier 2 BCs aren't too good, they're too good for their PRICE.

Basically this. ^
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#9 - 2011-11-23 20:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
egola wrote:
one word: HELLCATS, tier 2 BCs aren't too good, they're too good for their PRICE. in a fight where both sides have equal numbers hellcats will beat the living carp out of Canes and Drakes, they have buffer but nowhere near BS extent, they also have dps but once again they don't have BS dps.



So I am sorry, but I have been gone a while, and have been out of 0.0 for a good bit. Can someone explain to me what Hellcat fleets are? I presume they are some kind of counter to Alpha fleets or RR fleets, but that is the extent of my understanding. Are they Blaster/AC/Pulse/Ham fit BS fleets?

Thanks in advance.

Edited for fail spelling.
grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
#10 - 2011-11-23 20:41:24 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.



And once we are done nerfing this lets nerf everything els ohh the rifter and punisher are the best frig they need a nerf too and then lets nerf all of eve down to the point where its only a ibis and a civi rail gun and you know what i get you still cry nerf.

Instead of having that pig headed nerf everything attitude how about be buff the under performers instead bring the tier ones close CLOSE to the performance of tier 2 but still not quite as good.
Alara IonStorm
#11 - 2011-11-23 20:49:19 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Can someone explain to me what Hellcat fleets are?

Amarr Battleships equipped with Pulse Lasers and Scorch.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-11-23 20:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Von Sydow
Tier 2 BCs are too good compared to cruisers. BCs got more of everything compared to cruisers with very few drawbacks. They should be to cruisers what destroyers are to frigates.

Edit: Also, get rid of the tier system!
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-11-23 20:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
And once we are done nerfing this lets nerf everything els ohh the rifter and punisher are the best frig they need a nerf too and then lets nerf all of eve down to the point where its only a ibis and a civi rail gun and you know what i get you still cry nerf.


Umm, how about because the Rifter doesn't obsolete every other frigate? Idiot. Try actually thinking about the problem rather than making stupid generalisations.

Besides, the comparison you made there has a completely different context to the matter at hand.

Then again I wouldn't expect much else from a moron that can't understand the difference between "all the same" and "situationally better".

Quote:
They should be to cruisers what destroyers are to frigates.


To an extent they are. Higher sig radius, better DPS, but still capable of swatting the size below them. The big difference however is that BCs actually have decent tank to go with their mobility and firepower - something destroyers currently don't.

Thankfully it seems CCP have the right idea with the new tier 3s, making them trade tank and point defence for their firepower.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-11-23 21:06:49 UTC
Yeah, but BCs have more mids and lows compared to the top tier cruisers while the destroyers actually have less mids and lows than the top tier frigs.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-11-23 21:07:48 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
Yeah, but BCs have more mids and lows compared to the top tier cruisers while the destroyers actually have less mids and lows than the top tier frigs.


Point.
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp
#16 - 2011-11-23 21:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: X Mary
The only "nerf" tier 2 battlecruisers need is that some of their rigslots need to be large rigslots.

Tier 2 battlecruisers come close to battleships and battleships if you lose the lower tiered ones aren't even that more expensive after insurance. The thing that makes the big big difference is the large vs medium rig size, where with a battlecruiser the lost rigs are just a bit of isk, for a battleship pilots the rigs are the largest part of the costs when his ship blows up.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-11-23 21:59:14 UTC
my ferox needs +1 or 2 mids
Songbird
#18 - 2011-11-23 22:26:48 UTC
^^ that.

I think an extra slot + powergrid + CPU could do wonders for tier 1 BC's. Most of them have different functions than tier 2:

- ferox is turrets , drake is missiles, cane is passive tank , cyclone is active, brutix is turrets , myrm is drones. prophecy has bonus to armor , harbi to guns.

Look at tier 1 BS's vs tier 2 , different function and used differently but can achieve similar tank and gank.

What we need is tier 1 normalization : similar amount of weapon mounts ,highs, mids, lows and of course the grid + CPU to fit them. Different functions - this they already have. A bit less EHP than tier 2. That's what tier 1s should look like.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#19 - 2011-11-23 23:02:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Knock a mid off the Drake and/or change the resist bonus - preferably both actually.
Harbinger ia basically fine, has to pick between firepower, tank and mobility, but the Prophecy needs a new niché.
Myrmidon is basically fine, possibly remove a slot or two
Hurricane knock off a turret and highslot and reduce the speed or agility slightly

But the biggest nerf that needs to happen to bring BCs in line?
Nerf insurance payouts on them.
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-11-23 23:20:54 UTC
Tier 1's are fine in theory. In practice they suffer from having terrible bonuses, or terrible pilots.

Cyclone: Probably the best tier 1. A good cost efficient solo PVP boat that will get many to engage when they wouldn't engage against a hurricane.

Ferox: Suffers from hybrids being bad. Will have to wait until the buff really goes through to see how well they'll do.

Brutix: Active armor rep bonus is useless, especially when we have the myrmidon for all active armor needs. The ship needs something else to make it more viable than a shield gank fit.

Prophecy: The worst of the bunch. The armor resist bonus is great, but the laser capacitor use bonus is worthless, as with no corresponding damage or rate of fire bonus, autocannons become the best option in every situation. Switch the capacitor use bonus to a damage bonus.

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