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Drone's getting nerfed?
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Josef Djugashvilis
#221 - 2014-01-04 13:57:27 UTC
Politically, the goons are in serious trouble here.

If CCP give in to them and alter the game mechanics as mittens wants, it will look like favouritism towards a group of players because they (the goons) get the game welcome publicity.

The goons would then be forever laughed at, "please mommy we are special snowflakes"

The goons face being forever laughed at If CCP do not give in to their pleas of "we are special snowflakes" as potentially, the goons could lose the war, despite begging for help from CCP.

If the goons do come up with an effective counter (as I hope they do) then again, they will be forever laughed at, as they went begging to CCP, when in fact, all they had to do was to use the current game mechanics to deal with the issue.

This is not a signature.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#222 - 2014-01-04 14:08:47 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Politically, the goons are in serious trouble here.

If CCP give in to them and alter the game mechanics as mittens wants, it will look like favouritism towards a group of players because they (the goons) get the game welcome publicity.

The goons would then be forever laughed at, "please mommy we are special snowflakes"

The goons face being forever laughed at If CCP do not give in to their pleas of "we are special snowflakes" as potentially, the goons could lose the war, despite begging for help from CCP.

If the goons do come up with an effective counter (as I hope they do) then again, they will be forever laughed at, as they went begging to CCP, when in fact, all they had to do was to use the current game mechanics to deal with the issue.


Things are going more or less exactly as when the supers were nerfed from using clouds of sentries/titan turret tracking nerfed/ titan DD were nerfed/ titan DD were nerfed again, dreads were nerfed.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-01-04 14:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Sub capitals aren't obsolete or useless.
There, done.


quick, devise a counter to massed slowcats with supercarrier reps under a jammer

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#224 - 2014-01-04 15:23:37 UTC
Andski wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Sub capitals aren't obsolete or useless.
There, done.


quick, devise a counter to massed slowcats with supercarrier reps under a jammer
F4R showed that a jammer is a perfect hardcounter to slowcats and supers.
Any other questions the CFC master tacticians can't solve but a random N3 grunt/forumwarrior can?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#225 - 2014-01-04 15:28:43 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Andski wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Sub capitals aren't obsolete or useless.
There, done.


quick, devise a counter to massed slowcats with supercarrier reps under a jammer
F4R showed that a jammer is a perfect hardcounter to slowcats and supers.
Any other questions the CFC master tacticians can't solve but a random N3 grunt/forumwarrior can?


All we need to do is get a cynojammer into an enemy held system or spawn an incursion before the slowcat fleet deploys...
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#226 - 2014-01-04 16:11:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Andski wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Sub capitals aren't obsolete or useless.
There, done.


quick, devise a counter to massed slowcats with supercarrier reps under a jammer
F4R showed that a jammer is a perfect hardcounter to slowcats and supers.
Any other questions the CFC master tacticians can't solve but a random N3 grunt/forumwarrior can?


All we need to do is get a cynojammer into an enemy held system or spawn an incursion before the slowcat fleet deploys...
If you want to attack our SOV., then yes that's one thing. I'd dare a guess there are smarter ways though.
And still, you have other ways to counter slowcats, the GSF CEO even laid some out for you.

This isn't a case of you having no way to deal with a slowcat fleet. It's a case of you not wanting to. It's easier to get mommy CCP to sort it out, so you cry until it happens, right?
I already gave a number of pointers, for example using the low mobility of slowcats against it.
- And I am not an FC or anything. I'm sure all your tactical geniuses have access to more intel and experience than I.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#227 - 2014-01-04 16:46:21 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
If you want to attack our SOV., then yes that's one thing. I'd dare a guess there are smarter ways though.
And still, you have other ways to counter slowcats, the GSF CEO even laid some out for you.

This isn't a case of you having no way to deal with a slowcat fleet. It's a case of you not wanting to. It's easier to get mommy CCP to sort it out, so you cry until it happens, right?
I already gave a number of pointers, for example using the low mobility of slowcats against it.
- And I am not an FC or anything. I'm sure all your tactical geniuses have access to more intel and experience than I.


Our counter is more capitals.

Capitals have been nerfed many times in the past for this very reason.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#228 - 2014-01-04 16:58:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Andski wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Sub capitals aren't obsolete or useless.
There, done.


quick, devise a counter to massed slowcats with supercarrier reps under a jammer
F4R showed that a jammer is a perfect hardcounter to slowcats and supers.
Any other questions the CFC master tacticians can't solve but a random N3 grunt/forumwarrior can?


All we need to do is get a cynojammer into an enemy held system or spawn an incursion before the slowcat fleet deploys...

Mmm, an incursion you say? Where do you want one, I'll use my True Sansha LP to buy one.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#229 - 2014-01-04 17:00:47 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:


If CCP give in to them and alter the game mechanics as mittens wants, it will look like favouritism towards a group of players because they (the goons) get the game welcome publicity.

The goons would then be forever laughed at, "please mommy we are special snowflakes"


Too late, already happened. Bear Just another handout won't matter.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#230 - 2014-01-04 17:20:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
If you want to attack our SOV., then yes that's one thing. I'd dare a guess there are smarter ways though.
And still, you have other ways to counter slowcats, the GSF CEO even laid some out for you.

This isn't a case of you having no way to deal with a slowcat fleet. It's a case of you not wanting to. It's easier to get mommy CCP to sort it out, so you cry until it happens, right?
I already gave a number of pointers, for example using the low mobility of slowcats against it.
- And I am not an FC or anything. I'm sure all your tactical geniuses have access to more intel and experience than I.


Our counter is more capitals.

Capitals have been nerfed many times in the past for this very reason.
200 megas with 425 IIs and 2 magstabs can melt a full tank archon in ~25 seconds. 5 seconds locktime or so?
400 megas can melt that same archon in ~13 seconds.

Along with an archons locktime (~8 sec), the fact that armour reps land at the end of cycles (5s) and just the slightest bit of unawareness from the targeted archon (Such as watching pornography/netflix or napping, which I have from good sources all pilots do in drone fleets) you will be able to kill an archon every 20 seconds if you put 2 fleets of megas on grid.
Your counter is more capitals out of choice, not necessity.

So please, cry more, lie more, beg CCP to hand you that victory, as long as you know why.
Because you chose to.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#231 - 2014-01-04 17:45:04 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:

]200 megas with 425 IIs and 2 magstabs can melt a full tank archon in ~25 seconds. 5 seconds locktime or so?
400 megas can melt that same archon in ~13 seconds.

Along with an archons locktime (~8 sec), the fact that armour reps land at the end of cycles (5s) and just the slightest bit of unawareness from the targeted archon (Such as watching pornography/netflix or napping, which I have from good sources all pilots do in drone fleets) you will be able to kill an archon every 20 seconds if you put 2 fleets of megas on grid.
Your counter is more capitals out of choice, not necessity.

So please, cry more, lie more, beg CCP to hand you that victory, as long as you know why.
Because you chose to.


OK let's assume your figures are right, for the sake of this argument.

It takes 5 seconds for the megathron fleet to lock an archon then 25 seconds to "melt" it. This obviously assumes that all 200 megathrons are pressing buttons at the exact same time.

You're saying that all the other archons in the fleet take 8 seconds to lock another archon, and then 5 seconds to start repping, at which point the carrier essentially lives.

That means that the archon just needs to survive for 13 seconds with a 200 mega fleet right?

In your next example, you're saying that 400 megathrons will kill an archon in 13 seconds, and the archon needs to live for 13 seconds right?

wow that sounds pretty close run! I mean if the archon is even a SECOND too slow it dies right?

Apart from the fact that 650 players in system, 250 of them in carriers with drones out will be in 10% TiDi, meaning ACTUALLY there isn't 1 second either way, there is 10 seconds either way.

Plus it's a lot harder to get 400 guys to lock and shoot something then 250, meaning there is going to be wastage.

Even if you assume both fleets have the same amount of people not paying attention, you have to realise that:

Every megathron shooting isn't "decreasing" that 13 seconds
Every megathron NOT shooting is INCREASING that 13 seconds
Every Archon repping is INCREASING that 13 seconds
Every Archon NOT repping isn't decreasing that 13 seconds.

The only way the time works perfectly at 13 seconds for the megathrons is if all lock and shoot at the same time doing the same DPS. If the Archons don't rep the carrier at all it will die in 13 seconds.

However for every Megathron NOT shooting that 13 seconds is actually slightly longer, buying the archon pilots more time in order to lock and kill the carrier.

You're talking utter rubbish, the only reason you're defending a ridiculous tactic is because you are the one using it. If you were fighting us we would (as expected) do the same thing and you'd be complaining that we were breaking the game.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2014-01-04 18:07:22 UTC
Use 500 Megas then?

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#233 - 2014-01-04 18:13:56 UTC
Or a thousand megas.

It's not like they are expensive compared to carriers.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#234 - 2014-01-04 18:14:39 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
You're talking utter rubbish, the only reason you're defending a ridiculous tactic is because you are the one using it. If you were fighting us we would (as expected) do the same thing and you'd be complaining that we were breaking the game.
Maybe I would get some better reasons to complain in that case.
My example serves to show that you turn to capitals out of choice, not necessity.

That dismantles the argument baltec1 has about the solution to capitals being more capitals.

All you have to do is come up with some arguments that do not rely on BS. "Oh no, sentry drones are OP, nerf!" relies on ignoring a large number of drone mechanics, "Sentry fleets has 1 participant: The FC, the rest are wanking" is bollocks (And the FC triggering isn't much better than F1, especially when you take the drone interface into account), "Carriers have effectively unlimited drones" is both untrue, ignores that drones costs ISK and that recalling-redropping drones will significantly lower that carriers ability to deal damage, "slowcats can only be killed by other capitals" is untrue (As I showed just before, and as more competent and knowledgeable people have shown before).
I'm not sure if any CFC members this time 'round has attacked the mobility of slowcats?

Are there any arguments that does not fall into one of those categories?

See, it's CFC who wants a change, so it's up to you to handle the burden of proof.
Why does it need to be changed?
Until you come up with a good reason, I won't even have to defend the mechanic itself.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#235 - 2014-01-04 18:21:27 UTC
Charlie Firpol wrote:
Use 500 Megas then?



Still not enough and we would be losing one mega every cycle or two of the sentry drones.

If it was as simple as throwing a few hundred mega at the problem we wouldn't be working on getting dreads that do have the firepower to alpha them
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#236 - 2014-01-04 18:33:46 UTC
Once again, while the blob-seccer's whinge, the bulk of Eve cares not one whit about the issues a tiny minority of the player base has, especially since it is self-inflicted.

Where we do care is when your whining and CCP caving to your demands affects gameplay for the majority of the playerbase.

But it is a fait accompli.

goons batphone CCP, and CCP does what is demanded of them by goons.
Been that way for a long time now.

This would be a so much more dynamic game if CCP got its collective head of its ass and realized that catering to the tiny minority in this game is terrible business sense, then ignored their crying, dismantled the game mechanics and meta that created this mess in the first place, and re-created null sec mechanics that precluded any giant blue blankets.
Josef Djugashvilis
#237 - 2014-01-04 18:41:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:
Use 500 Megas then?



Still not enough and we would be losing one mega every cycle or two of the sentry drones.

If it was as simple as throwing a few hundred mega at the problem we wouldn't be working on getting dreads that do have the firepower to alpha them


Are you saying that dreads are the answer to the problem and that if enough of your pilots could fly them well, mittens would not be crying into his milk?

This is not a signature.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#238 - 2014-01-04 18:47:02 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Where we do care is when your whining and CCP caving to your demands affects gameplay for the majority of the playerbase.


I know that removing drone assist would impact a lot of players like mission runners, incursion guys and even myself as whoring killmails when I fly a logistics ship would become a lot harder. I really dont want them to just remove drone assist.
But I really cant remember any change CCP made because of a nullsec war, that actually impacted my gameplay (me being a FW pilot).

moon mining? didnt change anything
doomsday nerf? hell no
blabdread nerf? I am not sure, I know WH guys used them to do their capital escalations, is that now impossible?

I wouldn´t count changes like drone alloys, nullsec mining site changes etc as actually impacting the rest of the game, other than that the prices on the market fluctuating a bit, but that happens all the time anyway.

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#239 - 2014-01-04 18:47:40 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:
Use 500 Megas then?



Still not enough and we would be losing one mega every cycle or two of the sentry drones.

If it was as simple as throwing a few hundred mega at the problem we wouldn't be working on getting dreads that do have the firepower to alpha them


Are you saying that dreads are the answer to the problem and that if enough of your pilots could fly them well, mittens would not be crying into his milk?


yes.

they have a counter

but because its annoying to buy and use the counter, that is justification to nerf the enemy fleet.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#240 - 2014-01-04 18:48:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Once again, while the blob-seccer's whinge, the bulk of Eve cares not one whit about the issues a tiny minority of the player base has, especially since it is self-inflicted.

Where we do care is when your whining and CCP caving to your demands affects gameplay for the majority of the playerbase.

But it is a fait accompli.

goons batphone CCP, and CCP does what is demanded of them by goons.
Been that way for a long time now.

This would be a so much more dynamic game if CCP got its collective head of its ass and realized that catering to the tiny minority in this game is terrible business sense, then ignored their crying, dismantled the game mechanics and meta that created this mess in the first place, and re-created null sec mechanics that precluded any giant blue blankets.
Look, I like your signature, but when your posts look like this... You're hard to take serious.
Can't you stay over there, with the kids who don't know what they're talking about?

First of all, if goons could batphone CCP, they wouldn't need to make this show.
Second, the lowsec/NPC 0.0/SOV. 0.0/WH-sandboxes are what really makes EVE distinct. You can get HS on PvP servers in a few other games as well. Not that interesting PvE, not a lot of demand for industry on massive scale (Since less destruction), not a lot of player ability to create stories, (meaningful) groups or enforce their will.
That "small minority" brings EVE to the frontpage of national and international newspapers' web editions.

When a miner or mission runner does that, your "HS > 0.0" argument can actually have validity.