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EVE is PVE
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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#121 - 2014-01-04 06:08:14 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see NPC corp members be made unable to target anyone not in their corp.

This way, either you, as a ganker, are limited to attacking only members of YOUR NPC corp, or you have to join a player-run corporation, and thus can be war dec'd.

Not a perfect solution, I know, but it would go a long way towards solving the neutral-alt rep issue, and would expose gankers to some form of retribution from their victims (if your victim can afford to have mercs hunt your mains AND alts every minute you're logged in for the next six months because you've irritated them badly enough, hey, too bad for you, Buddy).

My 0.02 ISK worth of opinion.


Gankers in NPC corps are a very small minority.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#122 - 2014-01-04 06:14:53 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see NPC corp members be made unable to target anyone not in their corp.

This way, either you, as a ganker, are limited to attacking only members of YOUR NPC corp, or you have to join a player-run corporation, and thus can be war dec'd.

Not a perfect solution, I know, but it would go a long way towards solving the neutral-alt rep issue, and would expose gankers to some form of retribution from their victims (if your victim can afford to have mercs hunt your mains AND alts every minute you're logged in for the next six months because you've irritated them badly enough, hey, too bad for you, Buddy).

My 0.02 ISK worth of opinion.


Gankers in NPC corps are a very small minority.

only a small portion of players?

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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2014-01-04 10:49:20 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see NPC corp members be made unable to target anyone not in their corp.

This way, either you, as a ganker, are limited to attacking only members of YOUR NPC corp, or you have to join a player-run corporation, and thus can be war dec'd.

Not a perfect solution, I know, but it would go a long way towards solving the neutral-alt rep issue, and would expose gankers to some form of retribution from their victims (if your victim can afford to have mercs hunt your mains AND alts every minute you're logged in for the next six months because you've irritated them badly enough, hey, too bad for you, Buddy).

My 0.02 ISK worth of opinion.


Gankers in NPC corps are a very small minority.

only a small portion of players?



Actrually an awful lot of people leave their high sec suicide gank alts in the original starter schools.

Main reason ... if you take out a multi billion ISK target, the victim cannot then hire mercs to war dec you and your corp.
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Menace of Morons
#124 - 2014-01-04 10:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodmyst Ranwar
Meyr wrote:
Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'


This is something that really grinds my gears, can't stand when people say this. Despite what YOU may or may not classify as PvP holds absolutely no weight.

Fact, this is PvP. It is a player/s shooting at another player/s. Just because you or others may look down on this type of play style it doesn't mean it is not PvP.

Yes, this I say this as a soloist (gankers also annoy me at times as well). But there are just some things in this game that isn't possible unless you gank another player. At the end of the day, it is PvP no matter what way you look at it.


/endrant.

EDIT: Also, hunting explorers and PI industrials is a form of PvP which pays for itself. What about Faction Warfare? Bounty Hunting?
Lopti Grey
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2014-01-04 11:29:00 UTC
Good original post.
I just started playing again on this new account, I played almost purely pvp up until I stopped playing about 2 years ago, I got really bored with pvp and just stopped playing. I liked the look of some of the new features so decided to start new with a new character/account etc... this time around I am just doing PvE and I have to say I am loving it. I am having way more fun doing PvE content now then I did with my years of PvP...

Some people love PvE, some love PvP some people like me it depends on the point in my life and/or my mood... I do have to say though I can understand what I can tell fueled the original posters rant and that is a ton of PvP players complaining whenever CCP comes out with PvE content.... It is really annoying... when you PvP guys get a new ship or new content I am happy for ya, have fun with that! don't be a little B!$#& and cry about how we PvE players are ruining "your" game all the time.

I really do think it would be funny if all the PvE players just stopped playing all at once though because the PvP players would start begging for our return as they start to run out of ships and equipment and the market crashes lol not to mention all the idiots who find their giggles in killing PvE players who are not paying attention.
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#126 - 2014-01-04 11:31:38 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Yes, I know some of you are going to threaten revenge for (insert whatever you want here).

Too bad.

EVE Online is PVE. PVP is what DRIVES EVE Online. The desire for fights, space, vengeance, and much more, but it's all based upon PVE.

You can disagree all you want to, but, at its core, PVE is what enables all of the PVP.

Wether it's mining (yes, all of you nullsec hardcases, MOON MINING IS STILL MINING - it's just the ultimate in AFK PVE), manufacturing, ratting, Faction Warfare, trading (yes, at the highest levels, trading is PVP, but not to 99% of the PEOPLE doing it), or mission-running, PVE is what EVE is based upon.

NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'

Just because someone doesn't want to PVP doesn't mean they're "doing it wrong." Quite the contrary - they're doing it how they want to. They're paying their subscription fee to CCP, and getting something they enjoy in return.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the ultimate sandbox. Stop your moronic, short-sighted, and stupidly egotistical sneering at those evil, lazy, cowardly, and dirty mission-runners - who do you think just bought that X-Type X-Large Shield Booster from you? Some idiot looking to pad your killboard in the next fleet fight? Of course not.

Some people want to 'pew-pew!' Nothing wrong with that. Others just want to build things. Great - someone has to make new stuff to replace the losses, or supply new doctrines.

Others just want to have the shiniest, most ISK-per-module 'blinged-out' "ain't no rat gonna kill this" mission-running ship. It's a goal - just like that top-end Bougatti you'll never even come close to pushing to its limits.

So, stating that EVE is only a 'harsh, cold, dangerous place' is, at best, myopic - it merely goes to show how self-centered you are. I've made great friends of people I'll probably never meet in person. I've spent time enjoying solo play, and I've been one more name in local during huge fleet fights.

EVE is what you make of it - but it's all paid for by PVE. No PVE, no PVP.

Yes, it really is that simple.



EvE is about walking on stations imho

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TharOkha
0asis Group
#127 - 2014-01-04 11:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Just how do you want to accomplish pure PVP game without environment interaction? Please tell me. Yes we can remove every rat, every L4, every NPC ship and corporation...

Then what?

Just imagine EVE on the first day. No goods are on market, no resources, nothing. Every player has zero wallet, but there are no rats, no asteroid belts, nothing...

If you want to build something you need resources and that cannot be accomplished without environmental interaction, no matter if you play EVE or if you live RL.

So your post is nothing more than silly rant without any real suggestion. Roll

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
WASPY69
Xerum.
#128 - 2014-01-04 12:06:26 UTC
I'm sure it has been mentioned already but there's oh so many ways to make isk in EVE without "engaging" in PVE.

First let me clarify, PVP means "Player Versus Player", and non consensual PVP is still PVP. So let me give a few examples.
Suicide ganking expensive mission runners or Freighters (or the occasional idot with plex in his cargo hold) is very profitable.
Baiting multi-billion fit mission runners into a limited engagement and blowing up their ship is profitable.
Scamming is profitable.
The right War dec can be profitable.
Going on a Safari (shoutout to fellow belligerents) is very profitable.
Gatecamping in lowsec, alone or with friends can be profitable. (until someone drops a carrier on your camp lol)

And the list goes on and on... Of course all these activities requires player cunning and skill and isn't for everyone. But the point is they're not PVE activities and they're still profitable and so many people make their living on these activities.
Of course I agree that larger entities will eventually have to rely on some sort of stable income, or a bad month could spell a failscade.
But for the solo player and for small corps, all the above mentioned is more fun, and more profitable than PVE.
I respect the people that only play EVE because they like missioning or like mining, but don't come and say it's the kinda gameplay that EVE boils down to, because it's seriously not.

This signature intentionally left blank
Sid Crash
#129 - 2014-01-04 12:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Crash
I'm not quite sure that people who fly PVE domis like this one are capable of fully understanding what EVE is about and how it works.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#130 - 2014-01-04 12:17:15 UTC
Full disclosure: I have been a hi-sec mission runner for almost 6 years. I tried a PvP corp briefly but found it really wasn't my thing.

ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
The scales are terribly unbalanced. Those in favor of the PK style can't have fun if I am not there as a target for their cowardly activities.


I will say it again. Do not be a target. When I am running missions I am piloting ships that a PvP enthusiast will not be tempted to bait and gank. Alternatively, I can pilot a ship that may be somewhat lucrative but not nearly as lucrative as the other guy in the system missioning in a Raven N.I with officer and faction mods stacked to the rafters.

I also never AFK. I am constantly evaluating the situation that I and my ship are in. I am also, being extraordinarily paranoid (see signature), evaluating how I will respond to an unknown suddenly landing on grid in the mission site.

ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
They won't allow that we have a legitimate gripe about Eve, whereas we are willing to compromise so that we all can have fun in game together!


Your "legitimate" gripe is that you feel helpless, alone, and vulnerable. You, and others like you who want to "compromise", come to the forums and lose their **** about their helplessness, loneliness, and vulnerability. You, and others like you, actively engage in a lobbying effort to make changes. Changes to the existing mechanics and environment are unnecessary. PvP enthusiasts, including gankers, are allowed to play their game and you are allowed to play yours. Because no capsuleer is in a bubble (metaphorically speaking), there will be times when you will meet these PvP enthusiasts. How you fare in these engagements is as much up to you as it is to them.

ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Notice also I have tried a couple time to suggest constructive ways to improve the game for your side! But then, you don't seem to see any need to change it since you seem to like ganking helpless people.


Again, the problem you are having is not rooted on the server side of the equation here. No changes are required in mechanics or environment to make this game fun for everyone. Any changes that need to be made are centered on the client side, more specifically on the individual pressing the keys and clicking the mouse on the client side. The only "helpless" people in this game are those that choose to be helpless.


ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
"That's the game, suck it up!" Right?


Yes. That is correct.

Also, and I reiterate this only because of its importance, don't be a target.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#131 - 2014-01-04 12:19:38 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Actrually an awful lot of people leave their high sec suicide gank alts in the original starter schools.

Main reason ... if you take out a multi billion ISK target, the victim cannot then hire mercs to war dec you and your corp.


Because mercs can totally stop you from ganking people during a war.

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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2014-01-04 12:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'


This is something that really grinds my gears, can't stand when people say this. Despite what YOU may or may not classify as PvP holds absolutely no weight.

Fact, this is PvP. It is a player/s shooting at another player/s. Just because you or others may look down on this type of play style it doesn't mean it is not PvP.

Yes, this I say this as a soloist (gankers also annoy me at times as well). But there are just some things in this game that isn't possible unless you gank another player. At the end of the day, it is PvP no matter what way you look at it.


/endrant.

EDIT: Also, hunting explorers and PI industrials is a form of PvP which pays for itself. What about Faction Warfare? Bounty Hunting?



Sorry

Having played PvP games since the mid 90s including all the original FPS such as counterstrike, tribes, unreal torunament through to the new ones like CoD as well as running up 1000s of hours in PvP WWII flight sims and virtual online wars and various MMPORG ... it is pretty clear that PvP involves two or more Players fighting or shooting at each other.

EVE ganking of miners and industrials is NOT in any way PvP because quite simply two players are clearly NOT shooting at each other. One player is shooting at an object controlled by the other player.

OTHERWISE ... shooting at a POS or POCO or ganking a players MTU would ALSO be called PvP. As would market scams.

That doesnt mean suicide ganking is easy it requires a lot of planning to pull off well and make profitable. But it is simply not PvP.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#133 - 2014-01-04 12:54:23 UTC
The only part of EvE that's not PvP is the login screen, and even that can be PvP if you have a keylogger on your computer.

The Tears Must Flow
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Menace of Morons
#134 - 2014-01-04 13:39:31 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'


This is something that really grinds my gears, can't stand when people say this. Despite what YOU may or may not classify as PvP holds absolutely no weight.

Fact, this is PvP. It is a player/s shooting at another player/s. Just because you or others may look down on this type of play style it doesn't mean it is not PvP.

Yes, this I say this as a soloist (gankers also annoy me at times as well). But there are just some things in this game that isn't possible unless you gank another player. At the end of the day, it is PvP no matter what way you look at it.


/endrant.

EDIT: Also, hunting explorers and PI industrials is a form of PvP which pays for itself. What about Faction Warfare? Bounty Hunting?



Sorry

Having played PvP games since the mid 90s including all the original FPS such as counterstrike, tribes, unreal torunament through to the new ones like CoD as well as running up 1000s of hours in PvP WWII flight sims and virtual online wars and various MMPORG ... it is pretty clear that PvP involves two or more Players fighting or shooting at each other.

EVE ganking of miners and industrials is NOT in any way PvP because quite simply two players are clearly NOT shooting at each other. One player is shooting at an object controlled by the other player.

OTHERWISE ... shooting at a POS or POCO or ganking a players MTU would ALSO be called PvP. As would market scams.

That doesnt mean suicide ganking is easy it requires a lot of planning to pull off well and make profitable. But it is simply not PvP.


So lets use Counter-Strike as an example. By your definition, the terrorist planting the bomb who is getting shot at isn't classified as PvP because the bomb planter can't shoot back?

No matter how much you try to fluff it up, it is PvP.
Snagletooth Johnson
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2014-01-04 13:53:08 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'


This is something that really grinds my gears, can't stand when people say this. Despite what YOU may or may not classify as PvP holds absolutely no weight.

Fact, this is PvP. It is a player/s shooting at another player/s. Just because you or others may look down on this type of play style it doesn't mean it is not PvP.

Yes, this I say this as a soloist (gankers also annoy me at times as well). But there are just some things in this game that isn't possible unless you gank another player. At the end of the day, it is PvP no matter what way you look at it.


/endrant.

EDIT: Also, hunting explorers and PI industrials is a form of PvP which pays for itself. What about Faction Warfare? Bounty Hunting?



Sorry

Having played PvP games since the mid 90s including all the original FPS such as counterstrike, tribes, unreal torunament through to the new ones like CoD as well as running up 1000s of hours in PvP WWII flight sims and virtual online wars and various MMPORG ... it is pretty clear that PvP involves two or more Players fighting or shooting at each other.

EVE ganking of miners and industrials is NOT in any way PvP because quite simply two players are clearly NOT shooting at each other. One player is shooting at an object controlled by the other player.

OTHERWISE ... shooting at a POS or POCO or ganking a players MTU would ALSO be called PvP. As would market scams.

That doesnt mean suicide ganking is easy it requires a lot of planning to pull off well and make profitable. But it is simply not PvP.


So lets use Counter-Strike as an example. By your definition, the terrorist planting the bomb who is getting shot at isn't classified as PvP because the bomb planter can't shoot back?

No matter how much you try to fluff it up, it is PvP.

Bad analogy. What you just describe are 2 combatants. The terrorists is engaging in PvP by planting a bomb. PvE is a soldier shooting a no-combatant, farmer tilling his field, in the back. Even if you are a miner working in a mine getting the ore used to make a tank, you are considered a non-com, ei PvE.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#136 - 2014-01-04 13:58:52 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
EVE ganking of miners and industrials is NOT in any way PvP because quite simply two players are clearly NOT shooting at each other. One player is shooting at an object controlled by the other player.

An argument could be made that bot-aspirant miners don't really play the game. Therefor they are not players and it would not be PvP, more like PvB, Player vs. Bot-aspirant.

But this are just some word games and they clearly originate from your limited notion what PvP is if you compare it with other games. The abbreviation PvP is not limited to some "fair" duel/arena mechanic, it simply says that a player plays against another player in the game, this doesn't even have to involve shooting at each other. And yes, market trading is PvP as well.

PvP is not another word for combat.
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Menace of Morons
#137 - 2014-01-04 14:33:22 UTC
Unfortunately some people will never get it............
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#138 - 2014-01-04 14:33:29 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
OP, I'm sorry that you are too poor to buy PLEX and you have to grind PVE.



And, here we have an excellent example of tunnel-vision, along with a really bad case of "wow, did you get that one wrong."

Please, go back, engage your brain, spend 30 seconds thinking, and then start typing.

The results are far more interesting if you do things in that order.


In and out, yes and no but this is what makes EVE a PvE ISK grind.

Goons can make an empire over 3 or 4 regions and avoid PvE burnout but it only works because most people aren't doing it. Add in the very bread and butter of EVE online, ISK is also a method of paying for the game and yes, the game suddenly has competing mechanics for very different reasons.

EVE is not truly a PvE game. EVE is an ISK grind, done through PvE. The elephant in the room. PLEX.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#139 - 2014-01-04 15:11:45 UTC
Meyr wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
Meyr wrote:
NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'


So you agree changes must be made to make PVP more profitable so you aren't forced to PVE if you want to PVP?

You believe in the sandbox right?


This would be a welcome change - i just have absolutely zero concept of how it could be done.


Easy - start classifying PK and structure grind as real PVP. Even when fighting a structure with AI guns on it, you are still fighting someone's intellect in POS layout and potential changes thereof. Even if it doesnt have guns you are facing potential retribution and hindrance from neutrals. As such profit gained from any activity that involves destroying or hindering progress for another player/group, can be classified as profit gained from a PVP activity. Ship-to-ship combat is merely the most basic way of driving/resolving a conflict.

Secondly - social engineer the game and get people to pay you too shoot stuff, gank stuff, hinder stuff, or whatever. Hisec wars are an easy, visible and somewhat dependable form as they can be supported officially for ISK. Another alternative is to agree for straight up payments when objectives are met. This requires trust between at least two parties, or a gamble on at least one end.

Then there is piracy, which I leave to others to properly classify. I too operate on somewhat of a 'code', honour my ransoms, but I don't explicity go for them... they are more of a situational thing that might happen when conditions are right. Truth is that I've made enough money with PVE to no longer be seeking it's riches all the time, and I find more enjoyment in attempting to make ISK or gain assets via PVP.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#140 - 2014-01-04 17:49:08 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Just name something that would be worse for you if you had to work harder or sacrifice more to gank?


Just name something that would be worse if potential victims worked harder or sacrificed more to survive. Oh right, isk/hr.

Holy crap that is easy. I have to spend more time replacing modules I lose when I *still* get ganked. That means loss of income, loss of time. Fitting would have to sacrifice more for defense, which means less ore coming in, or fitting for missions in a less effective way (since the fit for pvp isn't always also the best fit for missions), which means more chance of failing missions, or taking longer. Having to wait for an alt to scout. Having to depend on a corpmate to defend me which means I don't get to set my own schedule.

But of course you didn't answer the question, which suggests you have no good answer. Thus, again, we see the imbalance.