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[CSM] December Summit - Game Balance

First post
Author
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-11-23 16:25:15 UTC
Please discuss issues related to this session in this thread. We look forward to your comments and suggestions.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

MNagy
Yo-Mama
#2 - 2011-11-23 17:18:55 UTC
Things should be about Risk VS Reward in this game.


2 main issues I always have a beef with....

#1
Why would I want to go to LS or Null to do a mission when my HS mission pays enough / gives me a tonne of loot.
I will never go to LS or Null with my mission running as I make enough isk vs no risk in hs.

#2
HS missions provide LP + Bounty + Loot + Salvage

this should not be the case, you are flooding the market with Loot / or refined loot (minerals)... thats a miners / industrialist toons job.
A mission should only ever provide at most LP + Bounty + Salvage.

Let the Items be built by players for profit.
That is my biggest beef about game balance. Too much is given to missioners that takes away from industrialists...
Raid'En
#3 - 2011-11-23 17:24:07 UTC
low sec need to be more rewarding given it's risk.
btw i don't see any mention of low sec on any of the subjects... you won't talk about it at all ? or it is limited to FW ?
Solo Player
#4 - 2011-11-23 20:39:33 UTC
Agreed on risk vs. reward.

As a rule, avoid nerfing wherever possible. You will always face a huge threadnaught doing so, as you are taking stuff away from people.
If one element is to advantageous, introduce a counter (a new item, or an improved version of an old one - without removing the old one, mind, just letting it become obsolete) wherever possible, instead. That's how these things work in real life, and I don't see why they shouldn't in New Eden.
StukaBee
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-11-23 22:14:28 UTC  |  Edited by: StukaBee
Solo Player wrote:
Agreed on risk vs. reward.

As a rule, avoid nerfing wherever possible. You will always face a huge threadnaught doing so, as you are taking stuff away from people.
If one element is to advantageous, introduce a counter (a new item, or an improved version of an old one - without removing the old one, mind, just letting it become obsolete) wherever possible, instead. That's how these things work in real life, and I don't see why they shouldn't in New Eden.


That's dumb.

The reason that things work differently in real life is that it's, you know, real life. During the Cold War when it became clear that humanity just might annihilate itself, there was no Dev available to nerf the laws of nuclear physics and make superpowers develop more balanced and interesting defence spending priorities rather than ever-bigger and more gruesomely effective nukes. In Eve we can and should go back and revert things that don't work or which work too well, despite the shrieking and rage from bandwagoners.

An endless cycle of broken ships followed by counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters just makes for a tedious one-dimensional grind of chasing the latest FOTM.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#6 - 2011-11-24 03:57:13 UTC
StukaBee wrote:


That's dumb.

(...)

An endless cycle of broken ships followed by counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters just makes for a tedious one-dimensional grind of chasing the latest FOTM.

+1

Although I agree with the statement that risk/reward needs assessing, and that nerfing any high sec methods for making profit would fail due to "zomg rage" threads. As it stands, high sec is more profitable than low sec (possibly not so for null), this should be changed.

Then again, exploration changes coming up in crucible might address that, we'll see.
Eperor
Machiavellian Empire
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#7 - 2011-11-24 11:51:09 UTC
i tink personaly need remove from isions loot or make it not reprocesable. Aderways miners dont have job eny more not in high, not in low, not in 0.0.

Ader ting its wht to do with drone lands then they to give minerals.

I tink need to chenge drone PO into data libery 9or namethen ader ways) how its by sleepers that thos they can sell to npc.
There again its problem how corp can resive taxes then form thos liberys (probably by adresing if soem corp memebrs sels labery to npc his corp ressives tax from that sold item.

Actualy the same problem its with miners that corps not have eny tax from them att all only one hoo suports nof corps are ratters or mision runes that even not close fear.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#8 - 2011-11-24 13:09:19 UTC
Eperor wrote:
i tink personaly need remove from isions loot or make it not reprocesable. Aderways miners dont have job eny more not in high, not in low, not in 0.0.

Ader ting its wht to do with drone lands then they to give minerals.

I tink need to chenge drone PO into data libery 9or namethen ader ways) how its by sleepers that thos they can sell to npc.
There again its problem how corp can resive taxes then form thos liberys (probably by adresing if soem corp memebrs sels labery to npc his corp ressives tax from that sold item.

Actualy the same problem its with miners that corps not have eny tax from them att all only one hoo suports nof corps are ratters or mision runes that even not close fear.
What?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Eperor
Machiavellian Empire
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2011-11-24 13:30:28 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Eperor wrote:
i tink personaly need remove from isions loot or make it not reprocesable. Aderways miners dont have job eny more not in high, not in low, not in 0.0.

Ader ting its wht to do with drone lands then they to give minerals.

I tink need to chenge drone PO into data libery 9or namethen ader ways) how its by sleepers that thos they can sell to npc.
There again its problem how corp can resive taxes then form thos liberys (probably by adresing if soem corp memebrs sels labery to npc his corp ressives tax from that sold item.

Actualy the same problem its with miners that corps not have eny tax from them att all only one hoo suports nof corps are ratters or mision runes that even not close fear.
What?


I wil true get evenignthat soem one translatre it to normal english from my acient caldari.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#10 - 2011-11-25 08:18:18 UTC
Iterative cruiser/frig balance, ever go: "A bellicose/burst/bantam/osprey/augoror on scan? What's that?"

AF Balance, make them relevant again

Citadel sized missile explosion radius/velocity tweaking
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#11 - 2011-11-25 17:29:31 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Please discuss issues related to this session in this thread. We look forward to your comments and suggestions.


- Decrising incursion rewards in high-security space

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#12 - 2011-11-25 17:55:27 UTC
Shaidar Hussan wrote:
StukaBee wrote:


That's dumb.

(...)

An endless cycle of broken ships followed by counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters just makes for a tedious one-dimensional grind of chasing the latest FOTM.

+1

Although I agree with the statement that risk/reward needs assessing, and that nerfing any high sec methods for making profit would fail due to "zomg rage" threads. As it stands, high sec is more profitable than low sec (possibly not so for null), this should be changed.

Then again, exploration changes coming up in crucible might address that, we'll see.


Nullparrot much?

"BRAAAWK!!! Let's steal money from the people who chose to live a quieter, less dissipative lifestyle and give it to the people who spend ships like addicts smoke crack...WELFARE FOR NULLBEARS!!!"

There is ZERO risk in EVE. Death and ship loss are extremely temporary setbacks at worst.

Low and null-sec are lifestyle choices and SUPPOSED to be hardscrabble, riskier and less profitable than high-sec. Make the payments equal to the so-called "risk" in a game where death and ship destruction have zero consequences and you obviate the need for low and null-sec in the first place and you may as well make it all high-sec and install an arena/ladder system instead.

Burn through fewer ships and you won't need so much money. Resources automagically renew in this game, remember?. You are basically asking for government bailout money to support your poor/shady business practices.

Get your tree fiddy from your friends and quit begging CCP to take it from people with better, smarter business practices than you.

Here's a cookie!Big smile

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams

Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#13 - 2011-11-25 18:22:22 UTC
Thredd Necro wrote:
Nullparrot much?

"BRAAAWK!!! Let's steal money from the people who chose to live a quieter, less dissipative lifestyle and give it to the people who spend ships like addicts smoke crack...WELFARE FOR NULLBEARS!!!"

There is ZERO risk in EVE. Death and ship loss are extremely temporary setbacks at worst.

Low and null-sec are lifestyle choices and SUPPOSED to be hardscrabble, riskier and less profitable than high-sec. Make the payments equal to the so-called "risk" in a game where death and ship destruction have zero consequences and you obviate the need for low and null-sec in the first place and you may as well make it all high-sec and install an arena/ladder system instead.

Burn through fewer ships and you won't need so much money. Resources automagically renew in this game, remember?. You are basically asking for government bailout money to support your poor/shady business practices.

Get your tree fiddy from your friends and quit begging CCP to take it from people with better, smarter business practices than you.

Here's a cookie!Big smile

I'm not a nullsec toon, and I'm certainly not a carebear (look at my sec status). Although I must admit I do run complexes regularly, this game is still not supposed to be risk free, if you want to earn large amounts of money the more dangerous areas should be the best places for it. Without risk PvE is just a boring grind, and low/null are completely pointless areas.

You are the one asking for "welfare", you wish for the highest ISK/hour but do not want to work for it nor risk your ships. For you there is no concern about what pops up on directional, no scouting, no checking local and for all intents and purposes, no skill.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-11-25 18:49:56 UTC
It should never be possible to build something, refine it down and wind up with the same minerals used to build it. There should be at least a 25% loss.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-11-25 19:00:19 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Eperor wrote:
i tink personaly need remove from isions loot or make it not reprocesable. Aderways miners dont have job eny more not in high, not in low, not in 0.0.

Ader ting its wht to do with drone lands then they to give minerals.

I tink need to chenge drone PO into data libery 9or namethen ader ways) how its by sleepers that thos they can sell to npc.
There again its problem how corp can resive taxes then form thos liberys (probably by adresing if soem corp memebrs sels labery to npc his corp ressives tax from that sold item.

Actualy the same problem its with miners that corps not have eny tax from them att all only one hoo suports nof corps are ratters or mision runes that even not close fear.
What?


I'll try:

I think personally they need to remove loot from missions, or make it non-reprocessable. Anyways, miners don't have a job anywhere anymore... not in high, not in low, not in 0.0

another think is what to do with the drone lands, they give minerals. [hurting miners]

I think there needs to be a change to drone BPO in to a data library or name them other ways, like how sleeper loot is sold to NPCs. Of course, there is a problem as to how a corp can receive taxes from those libraries (probably by addressing if some corp member sells his library to an NPC his corp will get a sales tax on the item).

Actually, the same problem is with miners- that corps don't get any tax from them at all, the only ones who support corps are mission runners and ratters, and it's not even close. Fear.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-11-25 19:01:18 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
It should never be possible to build something, refine it down and wind up with the same minerals used to build it. There should be at least a 25% loss.

+1 to ending module compression.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-11-25 19:04:17 UTC
Black Ops battleships:

ArrowIncrease range 40%.

ArrowGive resists comprabale with T2 counterparts of other ship classes

ArrowMatch EHP with T1 counterparts (currently the Widow has less shield HP than the Scorp has Armor HP!)

ArrowEach ship needs a 2nd bonus, combat related.

ArrowCONSIDER... consider...... the option to use a Cov Ops cloak.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#18 - 2011-11-25 19:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Thredd Necro
Shaidar Hussan wrote:
I'm not a nullsec toon, and I'm certainly not a carebear (look at my sec status). Although I must admit I do run complexes regularly, this game is still not supposed to be risk free, if you want to earn large amounts of money the more dangerous areas should be the best places for it. Without risk PvE is just a boring grind, and low/null are completely pointless areas.

You are the one asking for "welfare", you wish for the highest ISK/hour but do not want to work for it nor risk your ships. For you there is no concern about what pops up on directional, no scouting, no checking local and for all intents and purposes, no skill.


Sigh...same lack of understanding of human nature, same mindless parroting, same self-entitled whining, the same tired "We have to work harder for our money therefore we should make more money than carebears. Carebears are just lazy."

LolLolLol

Oh please. This is a game. No one does any actual risky work here. There is ZERO risk in EVE. All EVE is, is a series of speculative investments, (suicide ganking included). Death and ship loss are basically meaningless.

You aren't special because you choose to live a low/null-sec lifestyle and therefore are not entitled to better payouts, it's that simple. Low and null-sec SHOULD be harder than high-sec. High-sec SHOULD be easier than low/null-sec, otherwise why have them?

Nullbears and nullparrots are quick to point out that this is a sandbox game and should be more reflective of dark, gritty reality, at least when it suits them.

Here's some dark, gritty reality:

Games like EVE can't accommodate the reality of a lone gunner with little skill being able to ambush and neutralize people and other assets with a crew served weapon, for instance.

In reality, the military and police are much more effective than they are in EVE, (excepting CONCORD, of course).

In "reality" many of the things that EVE players do would get them and their DNA imprisoned or hunted down and permanently terminated, neither of which can be accommodated by this sort of game. Scaling fines would make fine ISK sinks though and I am not sure why they have not been implemented. Perhaps it is because the player segment that would have the most fines would have the least money to pay them overall because of their crack/ship habit?

In reality many more people enjoy READING about low-sec and null-sec than actually want to live there. True story.

In reality MOST humans seek the GREATEST reward for the LEAST risk because that is part of our survival mechanism, NOT the other way around. Greater risk with greater payout is no longer greater risk now is it, not in a game where resources automagically renew and death and ship loss are merely setbacks of time? The game curve already GUARANTEES a payout MUCH better than the casino of your choice.

In reality there are FAR more carebears than nullbears because humans as a group like to feel more safe rather than less.

Shaidar Hussan wrote:
You are the one asking for "welfare", you wish for the highest ISK/hour but do not want to work for it nor risk your ships. For you there is no concern about what pops up on directional, no scouting, no checking local and for all intents and purposes, no skill.


There is much to be gained by awareness and tactical and strategic acumen but skill points can wash all of that away, other things being relatively equal. Like other games there are some rock/paper/scissors aspects to EVE but it's still pretty simplified and I hardly think basic tactical awareness, scouting and checking local constitutes skill rather than good play and simple sense. In any event, taking money out of carebear pockets to put in nullbear pockets won't make them work any better.Blink

I have never asked for anything to be taken from null-sec to give to high-sec and I have never asked for anything to be outright given to high-sec. All I have said is to stop trying to use illogical, emotionally based reasons like the ones you gave above to make game changes, especially ones that involve taking from one group and giving to another based almost ENTIRELY on the emotional premise that "They don't deserve it and we do because we think they are lazy/we feel special and therefore entitled." Roll

If ANY conversation SCREAMS to most make EVE like "WOW in space" it's the idea that because life gets harder the further you move from empire space that the further you move away from Empire the more money you are ENTITLED to and the closer in you are the LESS money you are entitled to in complete defiance of reality.

Make the nullbears happy at the expense of the carebears because in reality the nullbears aren't that hardcore and really want a lifestyle more like the carebears they talk trash about.

"WELFARE FOR NULLBEARS!!!"

THERE'S your "WOW in Space"...P

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-11-25 20:35:33 UTC
Thredd Necro wrote:
stuff



I think you're either trolling, or playing the wrong game, m8.

This game, according to CCP, has been about Risk v Reward

More risk, more reward
Less risk, less reward

It's why ABC ore isn't in hisec
It's why Ice isn't in 1.0
It's why rat bounties in null are 900k+ compares to 15k in a 0.7
It's why level 5 missions are not in hisec
It's why incursions pay 100% in low/null as opposed to 80% in hisec.

No, genius, it isn't about taking away what you have in your precious little bubble of safety. It's that you pay the price for being a coward, and that is in less of a reward.

To be honest, if the hisec fountian keeps increasing while null is ignored, eventually highsec players will find their lives much more difficult.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#20 - 2011-11-25 21:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Thredd Necro
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Thredd Necro wrote:
stuff



I think you're either trolling, or playing the wrong game, m8.

This game, according to CCP, has been about Risk v Reward...


What you say is absolutely true, there's no question about that.

There's also no question that EVE opened almost a year and a half before WOW and recently celebrated 350K subs...I think the numbers speak for themselves, do they not? It's not like people talk that much about EVE's allegedly steep learning curve. EVE is complex, yes, but it is NOT complicated.

My position is still to cut the attitude about carebears vs nullbears and look more towards gaining and retaining more players in every tier, as that by itself will create a richer environment for interaction for everyone, (and of course a more target rich environment), instead of kowtowing to the droogs which is much of what CCP seems to have done over the years.

EVE is still unique in many ways. If CCPs aim was to sacrifice new customer business and current customer retention in order to create a game that was more about allowing people to entertain themselves at other peoples expense rather than create an experience that was collaboratively enjoyable for as many players as possible, then I think they succeeded admirably and I think the subscription numbers reflect that.

P.S. I am happy for you that you managed the word "genius". Tomorrow you can move on to four syllables Here's a cookie...Big smile

P.P.S. Did you really call me a coward? In a video GAME? What are you, twelve?...Bear

P.P.P.S. In a game that has ZERO consequences other than time spent to recover? Roll

P.P.P.P.S. Let's all sing, "I wanna be a nullbear ranger, livin' a life of virtual danger, sound off..." Roll

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams

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