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[Proposal] - Trusted Developer/Referrer Program
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Rewind Montegue
Universal Moose Federation
Moose Alliance
#1 - 2013-12-16 04:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rewind Montegue
Create a trusted referrer/developer program for which corps (in game/out of game) can generate additional in game content from referral plex sales. Create guidelines upon which these groups can operate both in game and out of game and what the exact PLEX -> Bonus Content ratio may be.

Eve Online is a very unique game in that it is a huge sandbox, and is ultimately expandable via API and In Game Browser. There should be incentives for players or companies to generate in game content. The best incentive is always money, and best through the PLEX referral purchases.

I think the issue with SOMER Blink and other corps/players that did this did not have a clear set of guidelines on which to proceed. I believe a developer program would be the perfect way for everyone to be able to meet requirements, process transactions, and utilize maybe an advanced integration API. Even the "chance games" could be required to use "CCP's RNG" (as opposed to Chiribba's Dice), at least giving some more transparency for those "developer" organizations. Code / advanced transaction audits could even required on anyone generating more than x dollars in referrals or y isk in content.

SOMER Blink is not, however, the only potential recipient of such potential allocations. Goonswarm Federation, TEST, RvB, Eve University, BNI, etc all generate content. All of them drive people to the game in one way or another. Some churn out ships and smash them together. Others teach new players not to be afraid to lose ships. In one way or another, all of them make New Eden better. I am certain that this can be (and has been) quantified by your analysts. All of these groups have out of game costs and time wrapped up in content management. Hard work is often its own reward, but this sandbox game gains far more from the hard work of its users than any other mmo game.

I understand why this was taken away in a storm of butt-hurt, as some users stretched the model to extreme cases, but I believe a controlled environment for this type of activity would be beneficial to everyone.


Thank you,

-R
Ishadraeka
XLostCauseX
Now You're Gone
#2 - 2014-01-02 20:08:47 UTC
i agree, signed
Shalia Ripper
#3 - 2014-01-02 20:09:11 UTC
OP needs to learn the difference between "loose" and "lose" but otherwise....

/signed

Sig blah blah blah blah
Echorest
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-01-02 20:18:49 UTC
/signed


Developer frameworks can only help protect both CCP and "emmergent gaming" content developers, although risks are that a developer framework can restrict creativity, this must be considered.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#5 - 2014-01-02 20:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
SOMER Blink is not, however, the only potential recipient of such potential allocations. Goonswarm Federation, TEST, RvB, Eve University, BNI, etc all generate content. All of them drive people to the game in one way or another. Some churn out ships and smash them together. Others teach new players not to be afraid to lose ships. In one way or another, all of them make New Eden better. I am certain that this can be (and has been) quantified by your analysts. All of these groups have out of game costs and time wrapped up in content management. Hard work is often its own reward, but this sandbox game gains far more from the hard work of its users than any other mmo game.


So you're proposing a system where people get cash for "generating content". How do you propose that this is handled even remotely fairly? How does CCP distinguish between an organization that "generates content" vs one that doesn't?

My corp isn't as large or as well-known as BNI, but we certainly help new players and teach them how to lose ships. How much ISK should we get? Or is this feature only limited to very large, well-known corps? If one corp provides better help to new players, does that corp get paid more, or are we encouraged to simply flood through as many new players as we can? If we do try to ensure that only "good" "content creators" are part of this referral program, then who determines what is "Good"?

Quote:

There should be incentives for players or companies to generate in game content.


People generate content by playing the game.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#6 - 2014-01-02 20:36:18 UTC
I'm all for a special "trusted developer" program and would be one of the first in the line to sign up if it offered special development resouces, APIs, etc.

However, the problem with the SOMER debacle was not how many PLEX they were giving out. You can give out PLEX all day. The problem was that the process could be summarized as:


  1. Player pays money
  2. Money (or part of it) ends up in SOMER's wallet
  3. SOMER gives player "virtual" item that has a very clear ISK value


This has absolutely nothing to do with content creation, and everything to do with the summary of "player pays SOMER, somer gives in-game stuff". No matter what content created, no player can monetize in-game items or wealth in that manner. Seriously, it's in the ToS:
Quote:
10. You may not market, sell, advertise, promote, solicit or otherwise arrange for the exchange or transfer of items in the game or other game services unless it is for in-game sales of in-game services or items.


The sale of Eve Items is not an income source for anyone but CCP and their authorized GTC retailers. Period.

-1

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Echorest
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-01-02 20:39:21 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:

So you're proposing a system where CCP arbitrarily hands out cash to ingame organizations for "generating content". How do you propose that this is handled even remotely fairly? How does CCP distinguish between an organization that "generates content" vs one that doesn't?

My corp isn't as large or as well-known as BNI, but we certainly help new players and teach them how to lose ships. How much ISK should we get? Or is this feature only limited to very large, well-known corps?
[quote]
There should be incentives for players or companies to generate in game content.


People generate content by playing the game.



This comment makes me want to randomly insult you , but i won't .

The proposal is a developer framework, a set of rules where ANY person or organisation can benefit in FAIRNESS. If you take advantage of the framework all good. If you don't that is your problem.

The suggestion is that if a content creator creates content and they wish to monetize it with something like a GTC offer, then if they work within the guidelines they can.

Put your damn pitchfork away.
Echorest
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-01-02 20:42:15 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

The sale of Eve Items is not an income source for anyone but CCP and their authorized GTC retailers. Period.

-1


Of which somer and Marquee dragon are.

Marquee dragon are authorised GTC retailers/ resellers and somer are their affiliate.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#9 - 2014-01-02 20:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Echorest wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:

So you're proposing a system where CCP arbitrarily hands out cash to ingame organizations for "generating content". How do you propose that this is handled even remotely fairly? How does CCP distinguish between an organization that "generates content" vs one that doesn't?

My corp isn't as large or as well-known as BNI, but we certainly help new players and teach them how to lose ships. How much ISK should we get? Or is this feature only limited to very large, well-known corps?
[quote]
There should be incentives for players or companies to generate in game content.


People generate content by playing the game.



This comment makes me want to randomly insult you , but i won't .

The proposal is a developer framework, a set of rules where ANY person or organisation can benefit in FAIRNESS. If you take advantage of the framework all good. If you don't that is your problem.

The suggestion is that if a content creator creates content and they wish to monetize it with something like a GTC offer, then if they work within the guidelines they can.

Put your damn pitchfork away.


Be more specific. If BNI were to take advantage of your proposed system to reward them with cash, how would they do it? Would it be some bonus they get if a member buys GTC from them or something? Because if so, then that's not rewarding content creation, that's just handing out bonuses for GTC sales.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2014-01-02 20:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Echorest wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

The sale of Eve Items is not an income source for anyone but CCP and their authorized GTC retailers. Period.

-1


Of which somer and Marquee dragon are.

Marquee dragon are authorised GTC retailers/ resellers and somer are their affiliate.

GTC retailers are authorized to buy bulk GTC from CCP and sell them as distinct out-of-game items. They cannot obtain PLEX (or any other in-game items) and sell those. Even if Somer were allowed to ride on their coattails (which they're not, that's not how exclusive contracts work), they still cannot sell in-game items, since at no point is that allowed even for GTC retailers.

Again, GTCs are out of game items. You can buy them at a store, trade them to your friend for a crate of beer, whatever.

PLEX are in-game items. If you buy a crate of beer using an in-game PLEX, you're up for the ban-hammer for RMT.

This proposal would be effectively authorizing the latter, but only for selected "trusted" entities. I do not happen to think that Eve needs institutionalized RMT. It's CCP's prerogative to implement it or not, and I'll live with it, but I don't think it's a good idea.

If Goonswarm wants to monetize on their large public image, they can already apply to be a GTC reseller under the current system. They can tell their members to buy GTC through them, resulting in $$$ for Goonswarm and PLEX for their members.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Echorest
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-01-02 20:50:59 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:


So what you're saying is that in order to be competitive as a corp, we should

-Set up our own GTC selling service,
-Tell our members to buy GTC from us

?




Competitive as a corp? nope, keep flying.

Wanna make a couple bucks on the side, sure get your members to buy GTC from you if you want. Its up to them if they choose to buy from you.

Let me make it clear, you can, at the time of this writing, become an affiliate, and sell GTC, doesn't matter who you are, if you want to sign up as an affiliate, there is a registration process and you can sell all the GTC you want for a small markup.

Will people want to buy from you, do they think you are wroth supporting? well thats up to them.

The developer framework that is being suggested as i understand it will allow those who provide content, such as yourselves, to provide benefits beyond 10% off a GTC.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#12 - 2014-01-02 20:54:15 UTC
Echorest wrote:
The developer framework that is being suggested as i understand it will allow those who provide content, such as yourselves, to provide benefits beyond 10% off a GTC.

If those "benefits" do not include in-game items or services, you can already do that as a GTC reseller. I can resell GTC, bundling them with wallpapers and a mail-order case of chocolates, but not with Rifters or PLEX.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#13 - 2014-01-02 20:55:35 UTC
Quote:
The developer framework that is being suggested as i understand it will allow those who provide content, such as yourselves, to provide benefits beyond 10% off a GTC.


And who decides what a content provider is?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#14 - 2014-01-02 20:58:05 UTC
Rewind Montegue wrote:
There should be incentives for players or companies to generate in game content. The best incentive is always money, and best through the PLEX referral purchases.


The only necessary incentive is FUN.

Quote:

I think the issue with SOMER Blink and other corps/players that did this did not have a clear set of guidelines on which to proceed.


This is misunderstanding the issue. The only people that lacked a set of guidelines was CCP.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Echorest
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-01-02 20:59:49 UTC
I swear you two are trolling but you are aware that a GTC can be converted into ANY in game item, via converting into plex right?

And who decides who a content provider is ?

The people who support you of course, just like twitch, or youtube or any user content source. You will be supported by those who use your content, if they don't support you then maybe your content isn't worth supporting.
Shalia Ripper
#16 - 2014-01-02 21:06:06 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


However, the problem with the SOMER debacle was not how many PLEX they were giving out. You can give out PLEX all day. The problem was that the process could be summarized as:


  1. Player pays money
  2. Money (or part of it) ends up in SOMER's wallet
  3. SOMER gives player "virtual" item that has a very clear ISK value




That is where you are wrong. Unlike other gambling sites that let you withdraw funds, the ONLY way to get ISK out of SOMERblink is to win. Something that is not guaranteed unless you take a loss on your "gamble".

The fact of the matter is that barely over 25% of ISK blinked is taken as ships or as ISK payout on wins.

But this isn't about just SOMERblink, this is about people that provide content rewarding those that contribute to that content by making real money, which can greatly reduce the real world cost of providing that content. A good website isn't cheap to run.

Sig blah blah blah blah
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#17 - 2014-01-02 21:07:46 UTC
Quote:
I swear you two are trolling but you are aware that a GTC can be converted into ANY in game item, via converting into plex right?

And who decides who a content provider is ?

The people who support you of course, just like twitch, or youtube or any user content source. You will be supported by those who use your content, if they don't support you then maybe your content isn't worth supporting.


So then in what way does this support "content providers"? It sounds like the only group this rewards is GTC sellers.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#18 - 2014-01-02 21:17:44 UTC
Echorest wrote:
I swear you two are trolling but you are aware that a GTC can be converted into ANY in game item, via converting into plex right?

Of course. So can money, and cases of beer. They are real life items that can be traded for other items because that's what civilized people do.

When you "give" the GTC to CCP (by claiming it), CCP give you a service (digital game content) for your real life item. The service (PLEX, or any other item resulting from it) is not your property to sell. Any content you create within the game is, thanks to the EULA, also not yours to sell. When you sell CCP's digital services for real life money without their permission, that is called RMT.

This proposal asks for selling in-game items (PLEX) for real life money with CCP's permission. I do not think CCP should grant that permission.

Some reasons to not allow this:

  • Players motivated by money, not the game. Eve does not need to be more serious business, or job-like.
  • "Content creation" is a fuzzy concept. It's CCP's to decide, of course, but taking a step back, how is welping 100 noobships (E-uni) more content than making 100 people mine ice for you (classic gold farming)?
  • Huge inflation of PLEX since PLEX bought via this referral system are not "new". In time, it will cause a much lower supply of PLEX, since fewer people will buy straight from CCP or resellers -- a process that does not transfer PLEX, but creates PLEX.
  • Further inflation of PLEX due to its increased utility.
  • This is largely untested terrain, and could lead to other unforseen results.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Echorest
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-01-02 21:32:58 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Of course. So can money, and cases of beer. They are real life items that can be traded for other items because that's what civilized people do.

When you "give" the GTC to CCP (by claiming it), CCP give you a service (digital game content) for your real life item. The service (PLEX, or any other item resulting from it) is not your property to sell. Any content you create within the game is, thanks to the EULA, also not yours to sell. When you sell CCP's digital services for real life money without their permission, that is called RMT.

This proposal asks for selling in-game items (PLEX) for real life money with CCP's permission. I do not think CCP should grant that permission.

Some reasons to not allow this:

  • Players motivated by money, not the game. Eve does not need to be more serious business, or job-like.
  • "Content creation" is a fuzzy concept. It's CCP's to decide, of course, but taking a step back, how is welping 100 noobships (E-uni) more content than making 100 people mine ice for you (classic gold farming)?
  • Huge inflation of PLEX since PLEX bought via this referral system are not "new". In time, it will cause a much lower supply of PLEX, since fewer people will buy straight from CCP or resellers -- a process that does not transfer PLEX, but creates PLEX.
  • Further inflation of PLEX due to its increased utility.
  • This is largely untested terrain, and could lead to other unforseen results.




I'm sorry you think FLOODING the market with plex would cause inflation? You think over supply would increase prices?

"
  • Players motivated by money, not the game. Eve does not need to be more serious business, or job-like."

    • So don't monetize yourself, play the game, if you think you are missing out but don't want to put effort in, that says more about you than anything else, play the content created by others, for free or otherwise.

    "
  • "Content creation" is a fuzzy concept. It's CCP's to decide, of course, but taking a step back, how is welping 100 noobships (E-uni) more content than making 100 people mine ice for you (classic gold farming)?"

    • Its NOt for CCP to decide what good content is , this is a sandbox, WE decide what good content is, if people create good content, in OUR eyes, we should be able to compensate them, at the same time CCP gets their cut for providing the tools. If people decide that watching some sping ships in station is good content and that ship spinner gets 90000 viewers, well yes he should be rewarded, the poeple have spoken.

    "
  • Huge inflation of PLEX since PLEX bought via this referral system are not "new". In time, it will cause a much lower supply of PLEX, since fewer people will buy straight from CCP or resellers -- a process that does not transfer PLEX, but creates PLEX."

    • There is so much wrong with this statement, firstly it contradicts itself "lower supply" "Creates Plex"?????? Secondly for the love of god READ, this a proposal to find a BETTER way of monetizing people or reward them in some way that is FAIR. JUST STOP POSTING.

    "
  • Further inflation of PLEX due to its increased utility."

    • This contradicts previous line of yours, there is either gonna be over supply causing DEFLATION, or there won't only so many liquid cash to go around.

    "*] This is largely untested terrain, and could lead to other unforseen results."

    Name any new development that isn't
    Petrus Blackshell
    Rifterlings
    #20 - 2014-01-02 22:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
    Dude, there's no reason to be upset. It looks like you're typing so furiously you're falling to lots of typographical errors. Please relax, get a cup of tea, and participate in a logical, level-headed argument like an adult.

    Echorest wrote:
    I'm sorry you think FLOODING the market with plex would cause inflation? You think over supply would increase prices?

    No, it would not. This proposal would not flood the market with PLEX, though. Since it uses already-existing PLEX, the supply does not increase. The actual usage of PLEX for game time is what decreases the supply.

    Right now PLEX is under at least some semblance of balance between new PLEX being created (by people buying PLEX or using GTC) and old PLEX being destroyed (by people turning it into game time). Reducing the influx of new PLEX will overall reduce the supply of plex, increasing price.

    Echorest wrote:
    So don't monetize yourself, play the game, if you think you are missing out but don't want to put effort in, that says more about you than anything else, play the content created by others, for free or otherwise.

    If you think you can play the game without caring about what others are doing and why, think again. Not even the simplest miner/missioner can afford to do that.

    Eve is a comprehensive multiplayer experience, and encouraging the obtainment of PLEX as an objective (by allowing it to be monetized) would have a serious impact on what people do in-game.

    Echorest wrote:
    Its NOt for CCP to decide what good content is , this is a sandbox, WE decide what good content is, if people create good content, in OUR eyes, we should be able to compensate them, at the same time CCP gets their cut for providing the tools. If people decide that watching some sping ships in station is good content and that ship spinner gets 90000 viewers, well yes he should be rewarded, the poeple have spoken.


    You're right, the market will decide who gets the moneys by who is the most popular in getting people to buy from them.

    Before you can get to that point though, you have to become a "Trusted Developer/Referrer", as per the very title of this thread. That is where CCP's decision comes in, and where they have to decide if someone can be "trusted" as a "content creator". Kahega and I are just worried about how CCP would handle this decision.

    Echorest wrote:
    (stuff about inflation, supply, demand, etc)


    I'm not sure you understand how the PLEX creation ecosystem works.



    Note the absence of a "NEW!" PLEX being created. Diverting people from using one of the first two methods into using the third would result in fewer PLEX being created. Since this proposal does not affect the number of people using PLEX for game time, the PLEX "sink" remains the same. Over time, this will result in a lower fluid supply of PLEX.

    Their extra usefulness (i.e. utility), along with their increased scarcity, would raise their price. Hence, inflation.

    Echorest wrote:
    Name any new development that isn't

    Fair enough, and I hated myself a little bit for saying that, since I'm usually all about progressive stuff. Still, there are massive upheavals in the metagame of Eve even for small balance changes. Something huge like allowing RL income out of Eve would have a corresponding huge effect on Eve, and I cannot foresee what it would be. My intuition does not point towards a good, adventurous new mechanic, though.

    Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
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