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Can we remove attributes and learning implants already?
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hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#21 - 2014-01-02 19:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
Mag's wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Risk verses reward. You set your attributess towards certain skills, the reward is faster skill training. The risk is having to train other skills at a slower speed. As others have pointed out, you can always set them somewhat equally, or place 2 higher than others.

I understand what you wrote but I don't buy it. Of course, there is all this choices and consequences bullshit but in my opinion it doesn't add meaningful depth to the game. To me it's an annoyance at best and min-max optimizing at worst. Not to the point when I would lead a crusade against it but anyway if CCP decided to remove it from the game, I would be one of those who'd welcome this decision.
You may not agree, that's fine. But Eve is built on choices and the consequences of them. As well as risk versus reward.

You know, partial reason why I'm against this rhetoric is that it is repeated like a mantra. And like a mantra, it is repeated so much that words stop having meaning. Choices and consequences, risk vs. reward are present in virtually EVERY game existing on Earth. WOW, Hello Kitty, you name it. Even in tic-tac-toe. So the question is not IF there are those. They are. The question is WHAT they are and HOW they affect the game.

And in this light the choices and consequences of attribute maintenance (or lack of), well they are, but they don't bring anything of depth to the game. I can ignore them, in that case by corollary I don't need them at all. Or I can optimize them but there's not much I can win through it. And the risk takes shape of mere annoyance (e.g. when due to circumstances I am forced to train anti-optimal skills). So is this supposed to be value added? Being pain in the ass?

Quote:
P.S. It's also not "attributess", but sh*t happens sometimes. Blink Thanks anyway.
Don't mention it. :)
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-01-02 21:09:31 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
The talk is about attributes.


Hmm, cause the title says attributes AND implants. And the word implants is in almost every post so far...


Xero Rico wrote:
Bro, did you read the rest of my post?


Yea Bro I did. And I regret that as it obviously distracted from the question/point I was trying to make. So I'll try again.

Right now you have the great option, if you choose, of using nice +4's when in the safety of HS to maximize your training time. And you can choose to hop into a cheaper clone for those times you want to be more risky.

BUT, overall you still train faster than if you didn't use any implants.

Then you claim you'd be happier to just see them go. So you would be happier to just train slower all of the time? How is that better?

That type of mentality just makes me scratch my head.

As for more interesting implants for slots 1-5, I'd simply point you to the implants that go in 6-10 (hint, most of them make the learning implants look cheap for what you get).
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-01-02 21:53:26 UTC
This again....


How does ccp kill attribute stat implants factoring in not giving up too much?

Example: when in 0.0 I managed to do rather complete trains with +3's. Now on a carebear break I also run +3's in the form of faction implants. In my case they are talons, but could be other liked implants like crystal, slave or even snakes (for the speed tanking peeps). Its people like us ccp has to worry about. Give me my talons, give me +4 or +5 naturally and I get more than I did before. If ccp wanted us to have +4 or +5....they'd have given say EHG (extra high grade) set implants.

I never had an issue with this setup. CCP would be giving up to much to me and people like. I with full and reasoned deliberation accepted +3 training. I even paid more for it with set implants to include omega's.

On remaps....plan better. Here is my generic guide for any new-ish eve player. Do not remap the first year. You will be all over the place for a year easy. The better ships and and weapons need perc/will. The support skills to use these well need int/mem. Keep the generic base line day 1 stats, throw in +3's and you get al of these at a decent rate and at the end of year 1 you are well balanced. Even if shooting for the blob this will get you the basic 3 you need I have seen for most homes. Frigates, BC/cruiser (I lump these together as except for BC 4 which trains easy enough they pull same skills except for tier 3), BS (note the BS gets you the tier 3 BC missed easlier weapon wise).

After year 1...remap away. Its sort of like going college undecided. Do a general class load and see what gets your interest. With 1 year under the belt you should now know what you need to hit hard. If you caught the skirmish bug for example well then pec/will remap and hit HAC 5, recon 5, etc knowing you have no aspirations to be the perfect BS pilot.

The Beauty of waiting is this....you have your 2 day 1 remaps unused. At year 1 you get your b-day remap There is 3 remaps right there. Bang out ships and weapons for about 6 months, do some support skills another around 6 months and you have a backout remap. And on your second b-day....bam another remap.

And if ccp threw in some new skills....well then deal with it. I have been perc/will for a while. Bit back ccp put in the new sensor skills. I trained them to 4 on the "wrong" remap as I fly all 4 races. Sometimes you have to give back to the game. Its the whole consequences thing. My perc/will spec gave me some great times on a weapons and ship heavy train plan. The weeks I saved in perc/willhad a few days eaten up by this int/mem train. The sun still rose and the day went on as normal. And even slowed down by the "wrong remap" I still made out better time wise at the end of the day.
Zosius
The Nordic Associates
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#24 - 2014-01-02 22:24:27 UTC
I don't know where you guys see risk and reward in training time. It's just a load of crap in my eyes. The training time you can't grind up or buy it. It's time based and for me time is important. If I want to fly maxed out triage archon I will most definitely use high grade attribute implants instead of pvp based and for sure as hell I wont be lolling around pvp in some t1 cruisers in null. I would fly without any or really cheap implants.

It's not about isk. I can replace my expensive ships and implants. Problem is, if you go and do fun roams in cheap stuff prepared to die it just does not make sense to plug in new set every hour, no matter how rich you are. If I wanted to fly expensive implants I would rather fly that adds something to ship bonuses instead sticking to learning implants to max out my train time because that you can't buy out no matter how good you are.

And I propose to have max training time for all skills. It is only limiting you when you have to stick to your longterm plan and those few short-medium skills that would be useful for your corp at that time. Or you do not stick with it and waste your time and feel bitter.

And when it comes to learning implants,well I would feel much more free and flexible in terms of pvp if i could just be empty pod and not jeopardize my train time. Now seeing null exit from wh just makes me sick in the stomach because bubbles and pods don't mix too well. You can't also do much JC from WH.

http://cloakybastard.blogspot.com
Toxic Raioin
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-01-02 23:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Toxic Raioin
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Batelle wrote:
you're free to remap to a balanced spread and not use learning implants.

Learning implants are an important isk-sink.


his point is that not using them will put you at a large disadvantage against someone else that started playing at the same time as you who did use them.



And?

As everyone else has said, it is part of the risk/reward kind of choices which are the cornerstone of eve.

Nobody is putting a gun to your head and saying you HAVE to remap or use implants. We all get the same base rate SP/hr.

What you choose to do beyond that is your choice. Where is the problem?

As an example I have never used beyond +3 implants due to my living in relatively harse EVE environments. Yes I train slower than the HS carebear flying around with his +5's. But that was my choice.

Also, beyond your 1st to 2nd year (and definitely beyond) it becomes far less critical. At my stage of the game already (which is nothing compare to many) I can already fly more ships than I have ever had time or isk to try.


It great that CCP gave players a way to speed up training, however bumping attributes 5 points each would have been the far better choice for everyone. Just because you live in a harsh environment doesn't mean your sp/hour should suffer for it.,even if you are fine with it. SP/hour doesnt belong in the risk/reward equation imo.

As far as remaps go, 1 remap per quarter would be good in a use it or lose it setup.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#26 - 2014-01-03 00:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
The same arguments about removing learning skills which everyone left agrees was a good idea apply to learning implants. They have a grind to get the isk for them, that if you don't do, you get left behind & they encourage not playing the game...

We can go on about risk vs reward, but the reality is that plugging learning implants in isn't a risk. You don't have to actually do anything to use them. Slaves/Crystals etc only actually make a difference when your ship is undocked & in space. Learning Implants apply in the station. And like it or not, go on about all the 'risk adverse carebears' you want to blame, (Though people in Nullsec are just as risk adverse most of the time), they do reduce the amount of time people spend actually playing the game.

That's the reality of them, you can forum warrior all you want about how 'you don't let them hold you back' but you are on the forums, you already aren't the typical EVE player, as you spend vast amounts more time in EVE than most people do, and are probably richer (Or at least higher isk income even if you spend it all) than most also due to that extra time.

And as a result the implants are a detriment to the game. The isk sink can easily be replaced by making more LG sets available or other actual ship attribute boosters that are weaker, so people will buy & loose them often. LG sets already exist and mainly don't get used because the attribute bonus is too weak after all. Not because people don't want the bonus.

So lets stop holding onto a terrible mechanic simply because we get advantage from it. Lets get rid of learning implants. Keep attributes, that doesn't stop us going out and playing, a remap doesn't get destroyed, and it allows some player customisation & choices. But lets get rid of the bad parts.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#27 - 2014-01-03 00:19:23 UTC
No, we can't.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-01-03 01:40:39 UTC
I think the only problem with learning implants is that the price does not change with the danger of the area. I think there should be cheaper (read: not cheap) pirate learning implants available in nullsec and maybe lowsec that would be illegal to wear in highsec. If they were about 20% of the price of highsec learning implants, then people could wear at least 1 point higher in the places where they go into combat, instead of only wanting to wear high training implants in highsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#29 - 2014-01-03 02:22:01 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I think the only problem with learning implants is that the price does not change with the danger of the area. I think there should be cheaper (read: not cheap) pirate learning implants available in nullsec and maybe lowsec that would be illegal to wear in highsec. If they were about 20% of the price of highsec learning implants, then people could wear at least 1 point higher in the places where they go into combat, instead of only wanting to wear high training implants in highsec.



Players determine the price. Want cheaper pirates...go spam npc 0.0. These shot up in price due to inflation. LP store price to buy has not changed. Which makes me kick myself in the ass as the say crystals I'd like to buy now years ago were hella mad cheaper.


Also I found with implants, and other crap like mods in general, putting up decent buy orders lowers cost. Want better order fills to build up reserve stock for lower isk cost make the buy order price somewhat reasonable is the catch. I with no desire to 1 isk war in trade hubs will sell to very reasonable buy orders for most any item.

I jsut don't have the time or ambition to work jita for an extra couple of million redoing orders all night. Hell if I am more than 1.5 hours of play time its a marathon session for me these days. 1 got 1.5 hours, I'd rather spam pve for gauranteed isk take in. So when I bring in the hauler, if lowest sell is say 10 mil, best buy order is 8 mil....mister 8 mil gets his order filled. Now if you low ball me to get this crap out of my face pricing....you are wasting your time or at least are getting slower order fills waiting for suckers to fill it. the latter may work here and there. Me...I'd rather just have my reserves up front faster.


Also implants banned in empire has the issue of making empire off limits while in use. Imagine you chasing me down. Imagine me jumping into empire. Imagine you forgetting you have these banned implants. Now you are out your implants. Even outlaw and shoot on site by faction due to fw is not this rough. They jsut kill you your boat, your pod and implants live. At least by NPC. Up to players to go for your pod lol.
Motorbit
Moira.
#30 - 2014-01-03 02:42:33 UTC
i dislike the current attribute mecanics.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-01-03 02:48:57 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Players determine the price. Want cheaper pirates...go spam npc 0.0. These shot up in price due to inflation.
OK stop right there. You have completely missed what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the already existing pirate implants with attribute bonuses as well as other bonuses that make them exceptionally good, and that are expensive not because of high demand so much as a combination of high demand and low supply; I am talking about creating new implants that give attributes and are illegal to wear in highsec but are relatively easy to obtain from the right markets.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-01-03 05:21:05 UTC
"Sixth on the list is the general idea of a longer skill queue. Right off the bat, Ripard Teg
argued that EVE should use the DUST skill system. “We’re paying for our skill points,
we should receive them regardless.” Ali Aras argued there should be an advantage to a
planned skill system, though perhaps backing up the system with a lower rate of gain if
you have no skill training would be okay. Ripard Teg pointed out that the DUST skill
system would allow for instant use of new skills, such as the Bastion mode. The general
consensus was that some system of not losing skillpoints is the real theme here.
Seagull spoke up and pointed out that the skill queue has an impact early on about how
often you log in and thus can influence how engaged new players are, but as players
get older, the queue length just becomes an annoyance. She continued to note that as a
result, she’s put a stop to messing with the skill queue until they’re better at the
onboarding part of the game, and can test what happens with different approaches.
Ripard concluded this point by pointing out that attributes are stupid and serve no
purpose; Soundwave agreed and said they’re exploring options to replace them"

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM8_August_Summit_Minutes.pdf

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#33 - 2014-01-03 05:24:05 UTC
Such a pity we don't have spring minutes to see what they discussed as a follow on.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#34 - 2014-01-03 05:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
Derath Ellecon wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
The talk is about attributes.


Hmm, cause the title says attributes AND implants. And the word implants is in almost every post so far...

True.

The difference, to me, is that the attributes are the root problem and learning implants are only a symptom.
Motorbit
Moira.
#35 - 2014-01-03 06:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Motorbit
impants are cool. hardwire that is. implants that effect my abilities in eve. i can decide if i want to take a higher financial risk for a slightly improved performance or not.
implants that affect my sp generation just suck. untill you are very risk adverse, there is no good decission. its higher risk, or slower learnning witch both sucks especially if youre say a younger player that would love to take higer risks in places like null or w-space. effectively, attribute implants re a great way to keep these folks out of there, encuraging them to become carebears.
so, thats not risk vs reward here.
its just a "pick your poison" situation.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#36 - 2014-01-03 10:45:50 UTC
I do not like skillpoint implants as they reward ultra low-risk play.

Play purely in highsec and don't AFK in space, and outside lag you will almost never lose a pod. As a result of your decision to avoid risk, you then get higher rewards - ~10% higher skill training speed with your permanent +5 implants than a null/WH player that has +3s most of the time.

As for attributes - I don't mind the rest of the existing system, although I think brand new players should get monthly remaps for the first 6 months.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-01-03 14:00:42 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
Players determine the price. Want cheaper pirates...go spam npc 0.0. These shot up in price due to inflation.
OK stop right there. You have completely missed what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the already existing pirate implants with attribute bonuses as well as other bonuses that make them exceptionally good, and that are expensive not because of high demand so much as a combination of high demand and low supply; I am talking about creating new implants that give attributes and are illegal to wear in highsec but are relatively easy to obtain from the right markets.




How are you getting supply up to avoid this? As LG/HG sets are not rare imo....many spam the lps daily and jita ia never out of stock for them you have to go over this production.

Since you are making this a nonempire idea you have several things hurting this supply you have in mind:

low sec Piewats don't rat/mission for lp. Not supplying anything as if the only time they'd see these implants is on pod km's.

WH is not empire....are you having sleepers now drop faction loot? Neat trick if so but start of slippery slope as if they drop pirate +3's...why not pirate mods. So wh not adding to supply.

I don't see ccp giving this to fw. They can spam +3 and 4 in the lp store to their hearts content after sitting in cloaked/stabbed frigates all night. Suppliers...they will not be.

Leaves 0.0. Partly. Drone space takes a leak on your cornflakes here. They don't drop loot. Well besides some mythical officer drone mods that never seem to be on sale just lots of buy orders for.

That leaves the rest of 0.0 to supply their needs and the needs of the above. And while I can envy your optimism (deep inside my cold callous jaded pessimistic exterior there are remnants of a more positive idealist) that jaded pessimist is going 0.0 will ring up the sales milking all the above groups for every last isk they can.


Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#38 - 2014-01-03 14:29:23 UTC
I agree, this is a choice made by players, and they have the right to make that choice.
They have this right because the devs set it up for them this way.

If you want to map for max learning time, with implants to match, then you are free to do so.

The irony, in my opinion, is that by making choices intended to make you a better player later, it is making you a worse one now.
So much so, as was implied several times, that characters become risk averse student pilots rather than the warriors they want to be.
(Why bother with the training if it is never used, making the point that they want to PvP enough to make long term plans for it)

I hate to say it, but these good intentions may be an unintended obstacle here.

Would it be reasonable to suggest something to put these focused learning pilots back into today's game, rather than keeping them on the sidelines indefinitely till they "feel" skilled enough to set aside the learning tools?

I could suggest options, but ultimately they boil down to focusing on the gameplay of today as the main priority, and keeping pilots from focusing on skill growth at the expense of action.
The core idea being anything that anything diminishing today's gameplay, even with intent to better it for tomorrow, may be more trouble than it is ultimately worth.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-01-03 16:46:44 UTC
Just want to share how I did my training.

I read up on EVE a lot before I started playing and knew how the skills worked. When I started, I used the starting attributes to get a few Vs. Mostly Drones, Electronics, Engineering, and a few others. Then I went on a Per/Will remap for weapons and T1 ships. I've been per/will mapped for over a year now and I don't intend to ever to per/will again. To that end I will be on this map for about another year.

I can fly any subcap except T2. I can fit a full T2 armor/shield tank and use any T2 turret/launcher in the game. I can use int/mem mods like EWAR and things well enough. That has been enough flexibility for me to enjoy EVE.

I am cautious about what implant set I'm flying in certain areas and use jump clones to mitigate that. If I win, I'm back in my learning clone after the timer expires. If I lose, no big deal and I'm back in my learning clone after the timer expires.

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#40 - 2014-01-03 17:01:06 UTC
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Just want to share how I did my training.

I read up on EVE a lot before I started playing and knew how the skills worked. When I started, I used the starting attributes to get a few Vs. Mostly Drones, Electronics, Engineering, and a few others. Then I went on a Per/Will remap for weapons and T1 ships. I've been per/will mapped for over a year now and I don't intend to ever to per/will again. To that end I will be on this map for about another year.

I can fly any subcap except T2. I can fit a full T2 armor/shield tank and use any T2 turret/launcher in the game. I can use int/mem mods like EWAR and things well enough. That has been enough flexibility for me to enjoy EVE.

I am cautious about what implant set I'm flying in certain areas and use jump clones to mitigate that. If I win, I'm back in my learning clone after the timer expires. If I lose, no big deal and I'm back in my learning clone after the timer expires.

You seem to have moderated your learning, to allow gaps for actual play.

Well done.

The problem is, there is no graduation ceremony, or obvious metric for "Stop here to be good enough to enjoy PvP, PvE, etc".

There is always another potentially useful skill to learn, and remapping and plugging in implants takes time.
Some people have trouble moderating themselves with learning, and frankly are cutting themselves out of play almost entirely because they want to be better players.

Catch 22 meets EVE, I guess.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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