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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3781 - 2014-01-02 09:44:35 UTC
Quote:
Arthur Aihaken
If it were up to us... missiles would rule the galaxy! Twisted
I can see more ammunition or a reduced loading time. Probably not both, but who knows what 2014 holds. Lol
I did actually mean it as 2 possibilities not both together ( I was really tired and did not re-read it before posting)

I would like to add - after having just spent another 3.5hrs in a Tidi domi fleet - (launch, assign drones - recall drones, take fleet warp - launch assign, recall) I do so miss the old drake blob, Roll (Joke)

On a serious note;

I am really hoping 2014 is the year of the missile, nothing OP, just something that is usable as a general purpose medium weapon for small gang / fleet and solo pvp, that applies its given damage as it is meant to.

EG; HML - a bloody site better than they do now

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3782 - 2014-01-02 10:22:27 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Quote:
Arthur Aihaken
If it were up to us... missiles would rule the galaxy! Twisted
I can see more ammunition or a reduced loading time. Probably not both, but who knows what 2014 holds. Lol
I did actually mean it as 2 possibilities not both together ( I was really tired and did not re-read it before posting)

I would like to add - after having just spent another 3.5hrs in a Tidi domi fleet - (launch, assign drones - recall drones, take fleet warp - launch assign, recall) I do so miss the old drake blob, Roll (Joke)

On a serious note;

I am really hoping 2014 is the year of the missile, nothing OP, just something that is usable as a general purpose medium weapon for small gang / fleet and solo pvp, that applies its given damage as it is meant to.

EG; HML - a bloody site better than they do now



PRoblem is, its hard to buff them without becomming overpowered.

Just when the nano nerf was made, the tests on test servers shown missiles completely and utterly dominating over any other form of weaponry. CCP nerfed them not too much.. and they came to be what we have now. So the problwem lies in a mechanics that is balanced on an assintotic curve, where the minimal changes create huge results.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3783 - 2014-01-02 10:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I hate to admit it, but I had a lot of fun this evening with the new RLMLs.
(yes, I'm half expecting the ground to open up under me any second now…)

I decided to stop screwing around with PvE for an evening and work on a hardcore PvP fit. Wow. It's amazing how ships flee in terror when you make a point of specifically going after them. I killed two Catalysts, a cyno Reaver, Retriever and Herron. I almost got a Hawk earlier but lacked dual webs so he managed to eek out of jam range. The Retriever even netted me some Russian fan mail… Most of these barely had a chance to establish a lock and fire a volley or two before they exploded. Gate and station guns were actually more of a nuisance.

Now that I have a good idea of what the RLMLs are capable of, I plan to wreak as much havoc as possible. The right fit is key, and good implants certainly don't hurt. It also helps to be fearless.
Kill Count: 2 Destroyers, 2 Frigates, 1 Miner … Losses: 0

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3784 - 2014-01-02 10:49:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I hate to admit it, but I had a lot of fun this evening with the new RLMLs.
(yes, I'm half expecting the ground to open up under me any second now…)

I decided to stop screwing around with PvE for an evening and work on a hardcore PvP fit. Wow. It's amazing how ships flee in terror when you make a point of specifically going after them. I killed two Catalysts, a cyno Reaver, Retriever and Herron. I almost got a Hawk earlier but lacked dual webs so he managed to eek out of jam range. The Retriever even netted me some Russian fan mail… Most of these barely had a chance to establish a lock and fire a volley or two before they exploded. Gate and station guns were actually more of a nuisance.

Now that I have a good idea of what the RLMLs are capable of, I plan to wreak as much havoc as possible. The right fit is key, and good implants certainly don't hurt. It also helps to be fearless.
Kill Count: 2 Destroyers, 2 Frigates, 1 Miner … Losses: 0



Point is.... you could have killed all these same way with standard missile launchers... so no effective gain. If you are in a bellicose with a painter and web HAMS are as good to kill frigates and much superior killign everythign else.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3785 - 2014-01-02 10:51:26 UTC
Kesthely wrote:

Add more Modules that alter Missiles, their behavior, and there damage applications.
A missile part for Tracking computers
A missile part for Tracking Enhancers
A Module that addresses reload times for Rapid Missiles (i would suggest rigs)




You realize that this basically demands also a counter, therefore a tracking disruptor effect against missiles ?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3786 - 2014-01-02 11:45:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I hate to admit it, but I had a lot of fun this evening with the new RLMLs.
(yes, I'm half expecting the ground to open up under me any second now…)

I decided to stop screwing around with PvE for an evening and work on a hardcore PvP fit. Wow. It's amazing how ships flee in terror when you make a point of specifically going after them. I killed two Catalysts, a cyno Reaver, Retriever and Herron. I almost got a Hawk earlier but lacked dual webs so he managed to eek out of jam range. The Retriever even netted me some Russian fan mail… Most of these barely had a chance to establish a lock and fire a volley or two before they exploded. Gate and station guns were actually more of a nuisance.

Now that I have a good idea of what the RLMLs are capable of, I plan to wreak as much havoc as possible. The right fit is key, and good implants certainly don't hurt. It also helps to be fearless.
Kill Count: 2 Destroyers, 2 Frigates, 1 Miner … Losses: 0


On the one kill I see on your KB that fits this story (Catalyst) you only accounted for 21.87% of the damage done to the target while gate guns accounted for the rest. You are also using a 2+billion isk ship to kill a T1 destroyer it should be pointed out. Are you really changing your tune on RLMLs because you can kill a Catalyst with them mounted on a shiny Tengu with the help of gate guns? Really?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3787 - 2014-01-02 16:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Point is.... you could have killed all these same way with standard missile launchers... so no effective gain. If you are in a bellicose with a painter and web HAMS are as good to kill frigates and much superior killign everythign else

Unlikely, except for possibly the Retriever. With this particular fit the DPS with RLMLs is about 60% higher than HAMLs and more than double HMLs. Actual damage application with HAMs or HMs would've been further reduced, as I wasn't running any target painters or rigors. All my targets either burned towards the gate or station, so I had a very limited window of opportunity.

If I revise the fit (which drastically cuts my EHP), it looks like I'll get about 10% more DPS with overall 15% more damage with HAMs. Damage application with HAMs is about 32% on explosion radius and 59% on explosion velocity. So on smaller targets that have been webbed it's probably close to a wash. Then there's the larger ammunition capacity (75 vs. 19) and 10-second ammo swap. Range is 10km less for HAMs, but at the distances we're talking about it's probably not a huge issue.

I am disposable wrote:
On the one kill I see on your KB that fits this story (Catalyst) you only accounted for 21.87% of the damage done to the target while gate guns accounted for the rest. You are also using a 2+billion isk ship to kill a T1 destroyer it should be pointed out. Are you really changing your tune on RLMLs because you can kill a Catalyst with them mounted on a shiny Tengu with the help of gate guns? Really?

Yes, the first Catalyst made the mistake of going suspect within range of the gate guns and I finished him off. And actually it was a $650m Tengu (base Tengu is $300-$325m, so it wasn't ridonkuously expensive), but I digress... As for the other 4 kills, I accounted for 100% of the damage.

Just merely sharing my experiences. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3788 - 2014-01-03 01:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Another day, another roam... I took an improved RLML fit out and got into a skirmish with a Thrasher and Executioner around a gate, but they choose discretion as the better part of valour and jumped. One of them later refit to a Vagabond, and I put him halfway through shields in a few volleys before a Vexor jumped in to join the party. I shot all the Vexor's Hobgoblins (which I don't think he was expecting) and with the Vagabond pointed he choose exit stage left. I burned out the gate timer and ended the engagement.

A few nice advantages with RLMLs...
• Grid requirements are about 2/3s HAMLs
• You don't need stasis webs, target painters, rigors or flares (this translates into a *lot* of extra slots for tank)
• Since they're already uber-fast, you only need two ballistic controls (a third ballistic puts us into the law of diminishing returns with only a 2.5% damage bonus gain)

Addendum: While I was casually jumping to my next objective and editing this post, a Cormorant appeared on the other side of the gate and decided to aggro me. I returned the favour in kind and quickly dispatched him (4-5 volleys, tops). It looks like it was fit for an instalock setup, so I'm sure friends weren't that far off.

Oops. Roll

Kill Count: 3 Destroyers, 2 Frigates, 1 Miner … Losses: 0

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kesthely
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3789 - 2014-01-03 01:31:07 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kesthely wrote:

Add more Modules that alter Missiles, their behavior, and there damage applications.
A missile part for Tracking computers
A missile part for Tracking Enhancers
A Module that addresses reload times for Rapid Missiles (i would suggest rigs)




You realize that this basically demands also a counter, therefore a tracking disruptor effect against missiles ?


Yes i do, but that isn't much of an issue, as long as CCP has the common sense to make the Missile disruptor module seperate from the Tracking disuruptor module (by scripts or designing a new module)

A missile variant for Tracking computers/ enhancers was announced 2 expansions ago, but after that deadly silence.

In any case Missiles are the only weapon system, that besides from rigs don't have any modules to alter the damage application, Guns have Tracking Computers and Enhancers, as well as rigs that affect those stats, Drones have Mwd Speed, And tracking modules, and similar rigs, missiles have only rigs.

Could someone from CCP explain to us why this is?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3790 - 2014-01-03 01:56:33 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Could someone from CCP explain to us why this is?

Maybe they can't fix or otherwise enhance the legacy code...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3791 - 2014-01-03 07:36:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Another day, another roam... I took an improved RLML fit out and got into a skirmish with a Thrasher and Executioner around a gate, but they choose discretion as the better part of valour and jumped. One of them later refit to a Vagabond, and I put him halfway through shields in a few volleys before a Vexor jumped in to join the party. I shot all the Vexor's Hobgoblins (which I don't think he was expecting) and with the Vagabond pointed he choose exit stage left. I burned out the gate timer and ended the engagement.

A few nice advantages with RLMLs...
• Grid requirements are about 2/3s HAMLs
• You don't need stasis webs, target painters, rigors or flares (this translates into a *lot* of extra slots for tank)
• Since they're already uber-fast, you only need two ballistic controls (a third ballistic puts us into the law of diminishing returns with only a 2.5% damage bonus gain)

Addendum: While I was casually jumping to my next objective and editing this post, a Cormorant appeared on the other side of the gate and decided to aggro me. I returned the favour in kind and quickly dispatched him (4-5 volleys, tops). It looks like it was fit for an instalock setup, so I'm sure friends weren't that far off.

Oops. Roll

Kill Count: 3 Destroyers, 2 Frigates, 1 Miner … Losses: 0

Would you mind linking the fit you are currently using.
Not that I see myself flying a 600mil ship to kill ships worth less than 10mil as exciting.

**Is it still PVP when specifically targeting ships you know have no chance of winning?
IMO, this is more closely related to a smart bombing battleship on a gate blapping frigates and pods, it has nothing to do with PVP - just pure gank.

Cruiser class Missile users need choice; What we have now is 3 very specific choices.
HML - Pve (forget pvp)

Haml - Pvp vs
Frigates (yes but if fit for frigates think carefully before fight anything bigger)
Destroyers (mostly yes)
Cruisers (on par with other weapon systems)
Battle cruisers (pilot skill will decide outcome)

RLML - Pvp vs
Frigates (yes, mostly)
Destroyers (it seems from Arthur's post, yes, if you fly a 600mil tengu)
Cruisers (maybe lightly tanked rookie piloted) (generally no)
Battle cruisers (run fast and far)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3792 - 2014-01-03 09:28:30 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Would you mind linking the fit you are currently using.
Not that I see myself flying a 600mil ship to kill ships worth less than 10mil as exciting.

If you fire me an email I'll send you the current fit. It's exciting because you don't have to look for fights in a strategic cruiser - they always seem to find you.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
**Is it still PVP when specifically targeting ships you know have no chance of winning?
IMO, this is more closely related to a smart bombing battleship on a gate blapping frigates and pods, it has nothing to do with PVP - just pure gang.

In fairness, the Cormorant engaged me - as did the Vagabond and Omen. This quote seems appropriate:
"If you're in a fair fight, you're doing it wrong. If you find yourself in a fair fight, it's because the other guy's reinforcements haven't arrived yet."

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Gorski Car
#3793 - 2014-01-03 12:22:49 UTC
you could have fitted blasters to that tengu and still killed a catalyst bro.

Collect this post
Kesthely
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3794 - 2014-01-03 12:59:19 UTC
Tbh he should downgrade to a Caracal and try again, most experianced players know the strenghts and weaknesses of a regular tengu and wont engage them any data provided with RLML only says "Yes its possible to kill a frigate / destroyer in one reload time"

Its never been if you can kill a frigate of destroyer in one reload, its what happens if you face multiple frigates / destroyers, or a similar sized ship. I'd like you to get in a caracal, RLML fit, and then take on a omen
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3795 - 2014-01-03 13:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Gorski Car wrote:
you could have fitted blasters to that tengu and still killed a catalyst bro.

The whole point was to use RLMLs…

Kesthely wrote:
Its never been if you can kill a frigate of destroyer in one reload, its what happens if you face multiple frigates / destroyers, or a similar sized ship. I'd like you to get in a caracal, RLML fit, and then take on a omen

So I guess the simultaneous engagement with the Vagabond and Vexor doesn't count...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3796 - 2014-01-03 16:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: I am disposable
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

So I guess the simultaneous engagement with the Vagabond and Vexor doesn't count...


Are you saying you killed a Vexor and a Vagabond with a RLML Tengu? I don't believe that for one second. I don't believe you could kill either solo to be honest.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3797 - 2014-01-03 17:26:06 UTC
I am disposable wrote:
Are you saying you killed a Vexor and a Vagabond with a RLML Tengu? I don't believe that for one second. I don't believe you could kill either solo to be honest.

Re-read my original post and answer your own question. I think I'm about done with this thread…

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Coyote Laughing
#3798 - 2014-01-04 09:11:13 UTC
I'm not sure I brought this idea up, but I'm not going through 190 pages to look.

Rocket Baskets or Light missile pods for bomb bays - selectively targeting enemies in a huge volley (ie - auto targeting) ?

l8r \o/
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3799 - 2014-01-04 11:14:19 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:
I'm not sure I brought this idea up, but I'm not going through 190 pages to look.

Rocket Baskets or Light missile pods for bomb bays - selectively targeting enemies in a huge volley (ie - auto targeting) ?


You mean like auto-targeting missiles?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3800 - 2014-01-04 15:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
As of today, I decided to see if CCP has done any test fixing in Singularity for RLMLs and RHMLs.

*drum-roll*

There has been no change whatsoever to either types stats. Thereby inferring that CCP has NO intention of doing jack-**** about the reload problem they admitted to. To say the least of the other glaring issues of CCP 40sec's "rebalancing" strategies. In addition it has been over a month since the expansion release, plenty of time to do a small fix on reload timers.

CCP you really need to learn how to get things done. Cause, I swear you are more disorganized than the High School clubs I was in almost a decade ago. That is not a compliment and also says something (very negative) about your competence. I suggest you either redo your balancing teams or fire those incompetent workers: CCP 40Sec aka CCP Rise comes to mind as one.

Congrats CCP! Thank you for a ****** 2013 and probably an equally ****** 2014...I dare you to prove me wrong! But I am not worried about being proven wrong cause, past behavior is the best predictor of future/present behavior. Therefore, the odds of me being proven wrong is essentially 0%. Of course, I will eat my words if on the extremely unlikely chance that I am wrong.
______________________________
My predictions for 2014:
1) Missiles will be nerfed again (LMs or CMs this time, balance between missiles themselves will be unaddressed)
2) Caldari ships will become trash (Major nerf to only viable pvp Caldari ship left: Tengu)
3) Turrets and Drones will be buffed again
4) Gallente ships will likely be buffed further
5) Minmatar ships will be either buffed or left as is
6) Amarr ships will likely be buffed very slightly or left alone
7) Caldari ship stats will be nerfed again (kinetic only damage bonuses or useless range bonus for hybrids).
8) ECM will likely be nerfed

End result being Caldari drop off the map entirely and missiles become complete utter trash at all sizes.