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Why do people fly BS?

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Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#61 - 2014-01-02 10:35:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Why? Because active reps, that's why. Can you get a 3k DPS active local rep on any of the sub BSs without officer? Didn't think so.

Also, RR Domis. Just saying.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Omega Sunset
Black.Omega
#62 - 2014-01-02 10:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Sunset
T1 BS? disposable ships of the line. I'd rather trash my scorp than to needlessly loose my T3 and a skill burn. T2 and navy/pirate faction bad? 0/10 bad troll. l2p?

Gulliver Kilmister wrote:
there's no single cov ops variant available

Black-ops

—Ω—
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#63 - 2014-01-02 10:45:20 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
(20k damage vs Ishtar / Tengu 1k or less) as well as damage application (BS Torps or Cruise (bad) vs Tengu HAM (good) or Ishtar Sentry (excellent), mobility, cloakability (lock time nerfage)).


I've been having terrible trouble with my Ishtar in sites recently. Did CCP tweak the NPC drone targeting code? My drones get blatted regularly, so much so that I no longer use this ship as the constant recall/launch of drones is a massive pita.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-01-02 10:49:14 UTC
Gulliver Kilmister wrote:
So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?

well....

big ship with big guns. i always love the idea.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2014-01-02 10:50:00 UTC
I do agree on the comments above about the current proposal for the Nestor.

It looks like being a dogs breakfast abortion of a ship that does lots of stuff semi OK but not all at the same time and nothing well.

For around 3 billion you will get a ship with range bonused lasers without the grid/cpu to actually use them and without the target lock range to use beams or the tank potential to use pulse ... all combined with remote repping bonuses that compete with the sentry drone link mods and the large lasers for the high slots.
Grunanca
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2014-01-02 10:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunanca
Gulliver Kilmister wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Marauders are actually a viable upgrade. One can argue the cost is questionable & that they could be better designed, but the ship itself is a decent step from their T1 cousins now.
They also don't have poor resists, the T1 BS have identical resists to all T1 ships. Only the T2 ships have lower resists.
Sig & Speed tanking can be countered by TP's & Webs. So when you need 'in your face' brute force tanking, the BS does it.
They also have huge range when you consider snipers, large DPS compared in most cases to other subcaps.

So.... that's why people use them.



It's a step from their T1 counterparts - agreed - but the T1 counterparts are atrocious.

T2 have lower resists? Thats new to me.

Sig & speed tanking can be countered with webs and TPs - yes - but BS come perma webbed and TPd right out of the box, at any range and navy BCs have higher EHP.

I agree on the range, but whilst EFT DPS look kind of 'meh' the actual applied DPS is poor due to their guns sig resolution and poor tracking.


I dont know what navy BCs you have acces to that the rest of us dont, but I would definately take a BS over a a navy BC any day. They can fit heavy neuts, and with teamwork (this is a multiplayer game after all), you can kill most to all of the downsides. If people are in close and cant be tracked, use neuts and webs, if they are far out you can track them or just warp away...

Nothing T1 beats a good BS fleet with triage carrier support. You can have better range, more damage and more tank than anything else.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2014-01-02 10:56:12 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
What is your subcapital counter to a fleet of sentry dominixes supported by remote repair?

You're supporting your point about battleships with the most overpowered subcapital fleet composition there is.



Just answerign the starting question of the OP.


Battleships can be powerful with all their inherent disadvantages. CCP just need to make the Battleships that are far wore than the dominix to be a bit closer to domi level.

Funny is that durign the Battleship releance msot peopel whined that dominix was beign nerfed .. was too weak etc and I was OMFG this thing wil be so overpowered. Well, almost no one listened to me.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#68 - 2014-01-02 11:06:44 UTC
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#69 - 2014-01-02 11:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I do agree on the comments above about the current proposal for the Nestor.

It looks like being a dogs breakfast abortion of a ship that does lots of stuff semi OK but not all at the same time and nothing well.


Your kidding right? It looks incredible. Just think about how incredible RR domis are for a moment. Now do that with a Nestor. Invincible small gangs. You could tank a 20 man gang with two Nestors. Just saying. Plus, if they're anything like the other SoE ships they will have a giant cargobay so your not going to run out of cap boosters any time soon.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#70 - 2014-01-02 11:46:09 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I do agree on the comments above about the current proposal for the Nestor.

It looks like being a dogs breakfast abortion of a ship that does lots of stuff semi OK but not all at the same time and nothing well.


Your kidding right? It looks incredible. Just think about how incredible RR domis are for a moment. Now do that with a Nestor. Invincible small gangs. You could tank a 20 man gang with two Nestors. Just saying. Plus, if they're anything like the other SoE ships they will have a giant cargobay so your not going to run out of cap boosters any time soon.


Can you explain to me just how invincible small gangs are a good thing? I would have thought quite the contrary.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-01-02 12:04:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well



Some of them are.. some are POS.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#72 - 2014-01-02 12:08:25 UTC
I wonder the same.. Once upon a time I wanted to fit the Rokh that sits in my hangar to do level 4s. I've found that to be near impossible, it ends up doing less DPS than my BC Ferox, even though it has an extra gun hardpoint and more lows and mids as well.

My Ferox actually does more dps than my Rokh. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, but I can't get a proper dps from my Rokh while fitting rails.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2014-01-02 12:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#74 - 2014-01-02 12:25:09 UTC
1 vs 1 ships are not designed to fight outside their class for the most part. And battleships are specifically vulnerable to smaller ships. So by going '1v1 a cruiser can beat a BS' you are deliberately setting them up in the worst possible position.
Battleships are a fleet vessel and are meant to be used as such. And in that role they have a number of useful positions.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2014-01-02 12:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
1 vs 1 ships are not designed to fight outside their class for the most part. And battleships are specifically vulnerable to smaller ships. So by going '1v1 a cruiser can beat a BS' you are deliberately setting them up in the worst possible position.
Battleships are a fleet vessel and are meant to be used as such. And in that role they have a number of useful positions.

This is incorrect and untrue. Please post me a link where any dev ever stated that battleshiips are fleet vessels only?

The reality is that apart from capital ships and certain dedicated fleet ships such as logis, recons, EAS and the like (some of which can stll solo like pros (curse for example)) all ships which were released at launch (T1 Battleships are 10 years old) were designed as solo ad small gang ships.

From memory maximum gang size was 6 people at release. Not sure where the Battleships were designed as fleet ships came from but its pure horseshite lol.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Deunan Tenephais
#76 - 2014-01-02 12:41:16 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).

BSs are not junk or crap, they are big, slow, heavy and absolutely clumsy, but for that they get the best dps and the best tanking of all subcaps.
At least they are supposed to, if they do not then it's a problem.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#77 - 2014-01-02 12:41:44 UTC
Gulliver Kilmister wrote:
So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?



Lots of EHP, lots of damage, lots of range.

BS aren't ownmobiles, and they shouldn't be, but there are some jobs that nothing else will do.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#78 - 2014-01-02 12:43:03 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).


Your meticulous commitment to exposing your ignorance is, in it's way, quite inspirational.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2014-01-02 12:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Malcanis wrote:
Gulliver Kilmister wrote:
So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?



Lots of EHP, lots of damage, lots of range.

BS aren't ownmobiles, and they shouldn't be, but there are some jobs that nothing else will do.

Hmm no. EHP over BC is not significant. EHP over T3 is non-existant, T3 have more, huge amounts more when considering mitigation. DPS over BC no. Paper DPS perhaps but actual applied DPS is what matters. A battlecruisers dps will all be applied to a cruiser. Hardly any of the BS dps will be applied to a cruiser.

Range is all they have however a attack battlecruiser has that too. So do sentries.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2014-01-02 12:52:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).


Your meticulous commitment to exposing your ignorance is, in it's way, quite inspirational.

My ignorance has nothig on your arrogance.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)