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Entering a Faction Warfare Plex without declaring War
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Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-12-18 16:18:41 UTC
SeaSaw wrote:

Good Baron;

Heres why it discourages neutrals:

If you are a neutral brawler you want to get to point blank range. I want to shoot you right away as you approach but can't without taking a status hit unless you are already flagged.

Next, you don't want to fly around in FW space as a flagged guy (in this case me the farmer) since you get gate-camped by the neutrals (yes, there are high-status gate campers).

your humble servent
SeaSaw


In the first scenario, if the FW pilot is a pirate as well (will shoot on sight), the neutral brawler is screwed? No, he'll do the same thing he would have done against a neutral FW pilot. He'll open fire the first chance he gets.

If you're in FW, this won't affect you personally in the slightest. You will still activate gates and everything will go as it does now, FW pilots will not receive an aggression timer. Anyway, aggression timers are what... 5mins long? Just sit in a safe/station until it goes away then keep moving forward, either in low or high.
Raven Shyanne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2013-12-19 01:56:30 UTC
As a squishy PVP noob I didn't realize this was such a problem. But don't worry about this neutral, I'm harmless Big smile.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#63 - 2013-12-19 15:22:40 UTC
Take a Suspect timer? If it does not diminish sec stat but just gives you a Suspect timer, it will not deter me (neutral, 0+ sec) in the slightest: in fact I'd be happy the FW guys can react on that timer and some pew pew can happen. IRL entering a designated military zone is a criminal act in most countries... heck, even taking a picture from outside can get you arrested! Big smile
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2013-12-20 09:26:06 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
So neuts regularly enter FW plex's without joining FW.

This, to me, is an open declaration of intent to war against all FW Militias but they want to shoot everyone and have no consequence other than a dsec status hit. Some live to be -10 and use alts to bypass the disadvantage of this in high sec and furthermore there is now a high cost instant remedy to solve your sec status issues.

Whilst these are decisions the neutral player makes (a choice) it is unfortunate that a FW'er has to compromise their position when a neut enters a FW plex to either agrees, take a suspect flag and a sec status hit, or risk losing a fight by handing the advantage of first strike to the neutral agressers.

I think a simple change could be applied that evens the playing field without being unfair:

1. Entering a FW plex, whilst not being a member of a FW militia, gives a suspect flag.


Disagree? Give a good reasoning and I may change my mind.



The whole concept of being an outlaw is breaking the law. If you make impossible for them breaking the law then low sec losses all its meaning.

IF the suspect mechanis was more refined I would agree on becoming suspect at the eyes of the holding militia .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#65 - 2013-12-20 17:00:18 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


The whole concept of being an outlaw is breaking the law. If you make impossible for them breaking the law then low sec losses all its meaning..

you should not have to break the law to defend a plex from neutrals. Also, plexes are not all of lowsec

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#66 - 2013-12-20 18:48:55 UTC
I believe that a neutral entering a FW plex should have a limited engagement with any entities inside the plex. This should happen paired with a accel gate activation pop up of, "Warning - You are now entering a warzone and all entities can be attacked and attack you with impunity."
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-12-21 18:12:16 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


The whole concept of being an outlaw is breaking the law. If you make impossible for them breaking the law then low sec losses all its meaning..

you should not have to break the law to defend a plex from neutrals. Also, plexes are not all of lowsec



True, but then that should also count for FW players attacking a plex as such all militia entering a plex that does not belong to their f action should also get a suspect timer..
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#68 - 2013-12-21 19:00:30 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


The whole concept of being an outlaw is breaking the law. If you make impossible for them breaking the law then low sec losses all its meaning..

you should not have to break the law to defend a plex from neutrals. Also, plexes are not all of lowsec



True, but then that should also count for FW players attacking a plex as such all militia entering a plex that does not belong to their f action should also get a suspect timer..


That is what the War Dec is for

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2013-12-22 14:56:46 UTC
I'm -9.4 right now. I'm working very hard to reach -10.00. This suggestion doesn't help.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#70 - 2013-12-22 17:17:02 UTC
The Lobsters wrote:
I'm -9.4 right now. I'm working very hard to reach -10.00. This suggestion doesn't help.


Pod some people in highsec :)

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#71 - 2013-12-23 18:07:16 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
So neuts regularly enter FW plex's without joining FW.

This, to me, is an open declaration of intent to war against all FW Militias but they want to shoot everyone and have no consequence other than a dsec status hit. Some live to be -10 and use alts to bypass the disadvantage of this in high sec and furthermore there is now a high cost instant remedy to solve your sec status issues.

Whilst these are decisions the neutral player makes (a choice) it is unfortunate that a FW'er has to compromise their position when a neut enters a FW plex to either agrees, take a suspect flag and a sec status hit, or risk losing a fight by handing the advantage of first strike to the neutral agressers.

I think a simple change could be applied that evens the playing field without being unfair:

1. Entering a FW plex, whilst not being a member of a FW militia, gives a suspect flag.


Disagree? Give a good reasoning and I may change my mind.

+1

Entering the plex means you wanna pew pew... this just makes it easier.
Garric Shadowbane
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#72 - 2013-12-24 07:32:29 UTC
I agree with this, we all know why neuts come onto those sites. If they gunna do it. Give them suspect status.
LaoJtzu
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-01-01 23:42:51 UTC
I just got jumped by two 'neutrals' in a plex. While I was trying to figure out what flags they're flying ('suspects' can be red but allies?), since they didn't con FW side red, and since the two defending NPC ships didn't attack them I figured they might be greedy neuts come to share LP or just chasing someone. Nope. First guy was setting up for the second, and when they had their pirate preferred quorum (2v1) they jumped me. Predictable outcome.

As usual - by the way - since actual FW on FW fights are the tiny minority of fights - as usual I ended up fighting more pirates/gankers who had nothing to do with FW and appear to be exploiting a broken mechanic that lets 'noncombatants' into a combat arena.

Anyone who goes into an FW plex should be flagged friendly (for defending) or hostile/suspect.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2014-01-02 00:24:52 UTC
It's not broken, and they shot you which would disqualify them from being noncombatants.

Also, sort your overview out.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#75 - 2014-01-02 01:35:06 UTC
Anyone who actively manages their overview setting and 'actively' flies their ships does not have an issue with this.

This is just another way to make farmers more secure and is indicative of the level of whine in game currently.

You are in low sec. The only people you can actively engage is enemy - WT's or outlaws - 5 or lower sec status.

The empires who you are fighting for are not going to authorise you to openly engage anyone who enters the plex if they are not a WT or outlaw.

Really you lot just need to HTFU and work within the parameters set by your militia overlords. If you want to pvp then accept the penalties for attacking a non flashy, non wt. simple.

There is absolutely no reason why you should get a 'free' shot when they take a penalty to attack you. That would just not be fair. There is no argument that withstands a simple logic test regarding the lore of FW to allow militia free reign in shooting neutrals without penalty.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
LaoJtzu
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-01-02 01:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: LaoJtzu
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Anyone who actively manages their overview setting and 'actively' flies their ships does not have an issue with this.

This is just another way to make farmers more secure and is indicative of the level of whine in game currently.

You are in low sec. The only people you can actively engage is enemy - WT's or outlaws - 5 or lower sec status.

The empires who you are fighting for are not going to authorise you to openly engage anyone who enters the plex if they are not a WT or outlaw.

Really you lot just need to HTFU and work within the parameters set by your militia overlords. If you want to pvp then accept the penalties for attacking a non flashy, non wt. simple.

There is absolutely no reason why you should get a 'free' shot when they take a penalty to attack you. That would just not be fair. There is no argument that withstands a simple logic test regarding the lore of FW to allow militia free reign in shooting neutrals without penalty.


The 'free shot' is the neutrals - not ours - apparently our overview flaws lack the ability to flag non FW opponent's intentions. You seem to suffer some misapprehensions - anyone can jump into a plex and attack whoever's there. It's designed for FW players - it rewards people who defend it and rewards opponents who take it... the NPC ships in there add some defense to sided parties. There is nothing in their for neuts but a caged opponent. Flagging suspect is the least that should be done to irritate these people.

And just a head's up: pirates are the biggest chickenshyts in this game. They run from fair fights all the time. They only jump you if they outnumber you, outgun you, or know from some killboard studying (done at leisure since you're stuck within scan range while defending a plex) that they have more skill or a significantly better fit. Where else in the game will they have that kind of advantage? The result is that almost none of the fights taking place in FW plexes involve FW opponents. THAT is not consistent with lore, common sense, or the least smidgeon of testosterone.

It's the gankers/pirates who are the whiners in this situations. They're afraid they'll lose their koi pond "pvp" arena.
Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#77 - 2014-01-02 01:58:05 UTC
LaoJtzu wrote:

The 'free shot' is the neutrals - not ours - apparently our overview flaws lack the ability to flag non FW opponent's intentions. You seem to suffer some misapprehensions - anyone can jump into a plex and attack whoever's there. It's designed for FW players - it rewards people who defend it and rewards opponents who take it... the NPC ships in there add some defense to sided parties. There is nothing in their for neuts but a caged opponent. Flagging suspect is the least that should be done to irritate these people.

And just a head's up: pirates are the biggest chickenshyts in this game. They run from fair fights all the time. They only jump you if they outnumber you, outgun you, or know from some killboard studying (done at leisure since you're stuck within scan range while defending a plex) that they have more skill or a significantly better fit. Where else in the game will they have that kind of advantage? The result is that almost none of the fights taking place in FW plexes involve FW opponents. THAT is not consistent with lore, common sense, or the least smidgeon of testosterone.


You seem not to be able to understand the simple premise that there are NO free shots in eve.

Every action you take has an effect. These arguments that neuts get a 'free' shot are shite! Seriously if a neutral enters a plex and attacks the FW'er defending it they take a penalty. Simple. If you shoot first then you take a penality if they are a 'law abiding citizen' (ie. above -5 sec status)

I'm both a pirate and FW'er so I know how these things work with a very intimate knowledge of how to get people to engage or not. You waving your testosterone filled testicles around will only result in them turning blue! Get over yourself Roll

There is nothing in your post above that gives a good reason for you not to be penalised to attacking a non-flashy, non-WT in a plex.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
LaoJtzu
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2014-01-02 02:05:18 UTC
And overview setting that separates between a neut who's going to attack and one who isn't is what? If you attack low security ratings you'll be attacking your sides'/allies' fighters and gankers half the time. So what overview setting flags intention?
Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#79 - 2014-01-02 02:16:00 UTC
LaoJtzu wrote:
And overview setting that separates between a neut who's going to attack and one who isn't is what? If you attack low security ratings you'll be attacking your sides'/allies' fighters and gankers half the time. So what overview setting flags intention?


Are you really this stupid?

You can't flag intention! That requires you to actually think and feel about how your 'potential' opponent is going to act?!?

Are you seriously wanting eve to make every decision for you?! ShockedShocked

Learn to take responsibility for your actions and you'll enjoy eve way more and whine way less when you do. You will also start to formulate suggestive responses to bugs and mechanic issues (with neuts entering FW plex not being one) that the devs can actually investigate rather than just whining on the forums.

My suggestion is to have multiple tabs setup that show just enemies etc and also to have one that shows ALL ships etc. In this tab you also make sure you have the militia column shown. You only need the first letter to show so it only take up minimal space on your overview. This shows you instantly what militia they are in so you can take out enemy rather than friends/allies.

Really 90% of the problems in FW can be sorted by good overview management. The other 10% are usually just whines by people getting beat by better players. And no that has nothing to do with 'fair fights' it's about getting your arse handed to you by others.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-01-02 04:25:03 UTC
I can tell you this much. If a nuet is coming into your plex......He isn't there to mine.

I wish CCP would add some kind of rat that is easy to find in lowsec fw space that dropped like a tag or something to help with secstatus.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread