These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3761 - 2013-12-31 17:13:35 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
I would really like to see missiles expanded as a charge, ECM missiles of some sort and such. No damage, but giving a reason to make use of the long range missiles instead of kiting within disruptor range.

Tracking disruptor missiles.
No damage, but a cumulative -1% tracking penalty per missile that lasts for 10 seconds. Twisted

Would be interesting. I would like tosee warp disruptor missiles. Takes 3-5 missiles to equal 1 point of jamming on the targetted ship, or something that keeps it from being stupid OP.
Some kind of Painting missile that increases damage application for a short period. Or guidance missiles, when fired as part of a salvo they increase the damage application of the other missiles while doing heavily reduced damage themselves.

Never gonna happen though so I don't know why I bother daydreaming about effective long range missile use against mobile targets.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3762 - 2013-12-31 17:24:28 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Never gonna happen though so I don't know why I bother daydreaming about effective long range missile use against mobile targets.

One can always dream...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3763 - 2013-12-31 18:44:05 UTC
So after weeks of frustration, I finally found a niche hybrid PvE-PvP role for rapid light missile launchers. It's fairly specialized and requires a very unique (and expensive) setup. But… It outperforms all other weapon systems (including any kind of missile or turret) as well as extending me options to deal with those uninvited frigates that keep cropping up.

I can't overstate that this is a very specific role, and as such everything with the ship (modules, rigs, implants) conforms to a single theme. I ran several live runs this morning and it performed flawlessly. No kill mails, as this wasn't engineered as a frigate hunter-killer. It's intended to either get you out of a jam or provide a little "incentive" if someone strays too close or launches a flurry of drones at you.

I'm going to train to Light Missiles-V for the extra +5% damage, although I'm sticking with my Faction RLMLs as this gives me an extra volley (or 5.55% more DPS). A lot of the cheaper RLMLs only hold 16 rounds, so Faction actually gives you 18.75% more DPS for the same fitting (albeit more expensive). It's too bad that missile specialization doesn't augment damage, as even with the rate of fire bonuses T2 launchers are still slower than Faction.

For 2014 I'm not holding out much hope that we'll see any changes or improvements with missiles. With the increasing rate of drone use and 'drone assist', I think CCP has opened Pandora's Box. This whole turret vs. launcher debate is moot; drones out-track, out-range and out-alpha anything else. They're not subject to tracking disruption and sentries are almost impervious to ECM. The only thing you can temporarily do is sensor dampen your attacker… that is, until he 'assists' the drones to someone else. Then there's the issue of increasing node load, instability and crashes. So I think that this will have to be urgently dealt with, but with the prevalent usage of drones - expect a lot of tears and opposition that will force this to drag on.

Or maybe they'll just kill Drone Assist a week before the next release. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3764 - 2013-12-31 19:53:07 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So after weeks of frustration, I finally found a niche hybrid PvE-PvP role for rapid light missile launchers. It's fairly specialized and requires a very unique (and expensive) setup. But… It outperforms all other weapon systems (including any kind of missile or turret) as well as extending me options to deal with those uninvited frigates that keep cropping up.

I can't overstate that this is a very specific role, and as such everything with the ship (modules, rigs, implants) conforms to a single theme. I ran several live runs this morning and it performed flawlessly. No kill mails, as this wasn't engineered as a frigate hunter-killer. It's intended to either get you out of a jam or provide a little "incentive" if someone strays too close or launches a flurry of drones at you.

I'm going to train to Light Missiles-V for the extra +5% damage, although I'm sticking with my Faction RLMLs as this gives me an extra volley (or 5.55% more DPS). A lot of the cheaper RLMLs only hold 16 rounds, so Faction actually gives you 18.75% more DPS for the same fitting (albeit more expensive). It's too bad that missile specialization doesn't augment damage, as even with the rate of fire bonuses T2 launchers are still slower than Faction.

For 2014 I'm not holding out much hope that we'll see any changes or improvements with missiles. With the increasing rate of drone use and 'drone assist', I think CCP has opened Pandora's Box. This whole turret vs. launcher debate is moot; drones out-track, out-range and out-alpha anything else. They're not subject to tracking disruption and sentries are almost impervious to ECM. The only thing you can temporarily do is sensor dampen your attacker… that is, until he 'assists' the drones to someone else. Then there's the issue of increasing node load, instability and crashes. So I think that this will have to be urgently dealt with, but with the prevalent usage of drones - expect a lot of tears and opposition that will force this to drag on.

Or maybe they'll just kill Drone Assist a week before the next release. Twisted

Rapid Drone Assist?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3765 - 2013-12-31 22:04:52 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Rapid Drone Assist?

That's a scary thought...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3766 - 2013-12-31 23:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I am disposable wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Yeah, cause the top 20 on eve-kill have any relation to performanceRoll


They are much more relevant than your non-sensical ramblings about how great missiles are. People don't tend to use bad weapons in PVP.



M8.

Without even looking jp those stats, I'd guess you find the following:
Gardes, curators, 250rails, heavy pulses, 350/425rails, bouncers, mega pulsrs, 1400 artillery, maybe meta4 tachs, maybe light neutron blasters, scorch bombs, shrapnel bombs, warriot 2s and 720 arties (depending on the number of muninns BL deployed this month)

That's cause when you join some timerbashfleet, those tend to be heavily utilized. Extra carefully explained for you: the biggest blobs I fly in are 10-15 people in a fleet at once. Just cause missiles suck in 10% tidi doesn't make them the terrible platfom you declare them to be.

Or with your thoughts *oh **** he's actually giving arguments, must defend my f1-fleet movement-therapy-autism by claiming sov-grinds to be relevant pvp-experience... and missiles suck, cause I have never used them yet*

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Edit: r's and e's fixed <.<


Maybe you should actually read the list before dismissing it as irrelevant. It doesn't include drones at all. Also structure kills are a tiny minority of the total kills in this game. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

HAMs, light missiles, and rockets are decent in PVP. Everything else sucks. Period.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3767 - 2013-12-31 23:33:53 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So after weeks of frustration, I finally found a niche hybrid PvE-PvP role for rapid light missile launchers. It's fairly specialized and requires a very unique (and expensive) setup. But… It outperforms all other weapon systems (including any kind of missile or turret) as well as extending me options to deal with those uninvited frigates that keep cropping up.

I can't overstate that this is a very specific role, and as such everything with the ship (modules, rigs, implants) conforms to a single theme. I ran several live runs this morning and it performed flawlessly. No kill mails, as this wasn't engineered as a frigate hunter-killer. It's intended to either get you out of a jam or provide a little "incentive" if someone strays too close or launches a flurry of drones at you.

I'm going to train to Light Missiles-V for the extra +5% damage, although I'm sticking with my Faction RLMLs as this gives me an extra volley (or 5.55% more DPS). A lot of the cheaper RLMLs only hold 16 rounds, so Faction actually gives you 18.75% more DPS for the same fitting (albeit more expensive). It's too bad that missile specialization doesn't augment damage, as even with the rate of fire bonuses T2 launchers are still slower than Faction.

For 2014 I'm not holding out much hope that we'll see any changes or improvements with missiles. With the increasing rate of drone use and 'drone assist', I think CCP has opened Pandora's Box. This whole turret vs. launcher debate is moot; drones out-track, out-range and out-alpha anything else. They're not subject to tracking disruption and sentries are almost impervious to ECM. The only thing you can temporarily do is sensor dampen your attacker… that is, until he 'assists' the drones to someone else. Then there's the issue of increasing node load, instability and crashes. So I think that this will have to be urgently dealt with, but with the prevalent usage of drones - expect a lot of tears and opposition that will force this to drag on.

Or maybe they'll just kill Drone Assist a week before the next release. Twisted


Queue the drone users posting "but drones are easy to kill". Roll
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3768 - 2013-12-31 23:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I am disposable wrote:
HAMs, light missiles, and rockets are decent in PVP. Everything else sucks. Period.

HAMs are better than HMLs, but damage application still sucks against anything smaller than a cruiser. Unless you're outfitted with rigors, target painters or webs - you might as well be throwing rocks.

I am disposable wrote:
Queue the drone users posting "but drones are easy to kill". Roll

Yes, because it's so easy to target swarms of them under drone assist at maximum range.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3769 - 2014-01-01 00:09:19 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I am disposable wrote:
HAMs, light missiles, and rockets are decent in PVP. Everything else sucks. Period.

HAMs are better than HMLs, but damage application still sucks against anything smaller than a cruiser. Unless you're outfitted with rigors, target painters or webs - you might as well be throwing rocks.


Notice I said "decent" rather than "good" or "great". The best missile users have is middling weapon systems, and it seems that is the best we can hope for.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3770 - 2014-01-01 00:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I am disposable wrote:
Notice I said "decent" rather than "good" or "great". The best missile users have is middling weapon systems, and it seems that is the best we can hope for.

If by "decent" you mean "suck less", then we're in agreement. Lol
The only missile systems that don't suck at this point are light and cruise missiles.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3771 - 2014-01-01 00:34:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Brief addendum to my RLML update... I ran into a few scenarios where I couldn't complete the task at hand with a single ammunition clip. It did require a reload, but this was preferably to deploying a mobile depot for a 60-second+ refit and sending up a red "here I am" flag. As an interesting side note, it would've taken an extra reload using T2 launchers - or probably an extra two reloads with T1s. Yeah, that extra +1 round with Faction launchers can make a huge difference under the right conditions...

Out of curiosity I wanted to see if you could overheat your rapid launchers and burn them out in a single volley. Turns out you can't (at least with Thermodynamics IV, anyway). 65% and a 500k ISK repair bill was the best I could do. Amazing how much the heat dissipates in 40 seconds. I wonder...

With a bit more ammunition capacity (50% minimum) I think I'd be a happy camper. My preference is to be in and out in under 90 seconds, and forcing a reload or two tends to invite unwanted attention (and mission interruptus). It's always a frigate, one desperately trying to secure point for the slower reinforcements. I even had one sit on a gate last night in a vain attempt to catch me. I still don't like the new RLMLs, but I'm learning to make them work with my particular play style.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3772 - 2014-01-01 02:04:53 UTC
RLML use/configuration tips...

• Faction launchers = 19 ammunition (+1) over T2s (and ROF is faster than max T2)
• Light Missiles V = extra +5% damage (more important than T2/specialization)
• Zainou 'Snapshot' Light Missiles implants = +3/+5 damage (definite must)
• A pair of Caldari Navy Ballistic Controllers gives you the same damage as three T2 ballistic controllers (minus the ROF from the third one, which you really don't need anyway). This reduces CPU requirements and frees up a slot, and you can offset the ROF loss if so desired with a Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapud Launch RL-1003 or 1005 implant.
• Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II gives you +15% raw damage, which even though stacking penalized still gives you +8.5% overall damage. Perfect for T2 hulls as it leaves enough for a rigor or hydraulic.
• Rigors, rigors and rigors. Both T2 and T1 rigors trump T2 flares, so not that light missiles necessarily need them (they still benefit, obviously) - but two T1 flares are only marginally better than a single T1 rigor. This is part of the missile mechanics, but the short version is that when rigors have maxed out the target signature they then reduce the effects of target velocity; flares do not.

I'll add more if I can think of any.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3773 - 2014-01-01 03:48:40 UTC
I'm kind of amazed at how hard you are trying to make these things not suck. The thought of buying faction RLMLs fills me with revulsion to be honest.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3774 - 2014-01-01 04:20:06 UTC
I am disposable wrote:
I'm kind of amazed at how hard you are trying to make these things not suck. The thought of buying faction RLMLs fills me with revulsion to be honest.

Adapt and overcome. RLMLs have the potential to be a tremendous deterrent against the roving frigate gangs that seem more prevalent now with the warp speed changes. As I said, these are role-specific at this point. My sole purpose with testing them was to see if I could get a decent return on my investment (mainly to see if any of the skill training could be salvaged). Not only did I achieve this, but to my surprise I recouped the entire cost of the Faction launchers in a single evening session.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#3775 - 2014-01-01 21:10:12 UTC
Back to the core, rapids totally need their reload time tweaked. Exact value is not my concern, but it needs to be *better*.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#3776 - 2014-01-01 22:06:06 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.

More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel.
Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3777 - 2014-01-01 22:28:20 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Back to the core, rapids totally need their reload time tweaked. Exact value is not my concern, but it needs to be *better*.

My preference would be more ammunition, ie: 30 capacity for a T2.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3778 - 2014-01-02 00:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

HAMs are better than HMLs, but damage application still sucks against anything smaller than a cruiser. Unless you're outfitted with rigors, target painters or webs - you might as well be throwing rocks.
Snow Balls are fun, Fireworks add a little colour and do nearly as much damage as a Ham Cerberus to a frigate (without webs, TP and rigors)

Quote:

Yes, because it's so easy to target swarms of them under drone assist at maximum range.
Bomber runs are actually pretty good at this, as long as the bomber fleet FC is half competent.

Quote:
Arthur Aihaken
My preference would be more ammunition, ie: 30 capacity for a T2.
With Light missile specialization 4, missile support skills all 5, a load of 24 missiles would give you 1 min of damage application before having to reload.
I think this would be reasonable, along with a reduced reload time of say 25 seconds.
Slight changes overall but would mean you would have the option of engaging the odd T1 cruiser in your T2 Assault cruiser.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3779 - 2014-01-02 02:55:02 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I think this would be reasonable, along with a reduced reload time of say 25 seconds.
Slight changes overall but would mean you would have the option of engaging the odd T1 cruiser in your T2 Assault cruiser.

If it were up to us... missiles would rule the galaxy! Twisted
I can see more ammunition or a reduced loading time. Probably not both, but who knows what 2014 holds. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Kesthely
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3780 - 2014-01-02 04:12:49 UTC
As requested you would preferebly hear the respect of Power and Fun regarding the Rapid missile launchers.

As many people have layed out before, the main problem with both the power AND fun of Missiles in general is with the abysmal state of the Heavy Missile. When the Heavy missile changes were posted, this was unfortunatly done in a multi topic forum post, both with buffeing some missiles, nerfing ships and other stuff. This made debateing individual aspects of those announced changes virtually impossible.

Pre heavy missile change the Heavy Missile was used predominantly in Battlecruiser sized fleets in regards to caldari pilots. The Drake was areguably the best allround ship, hitting for decent range, and beeing able to survive a lot. Yet never did anyone claim they would use the Drake as the best damage output ship. Just the overal best choice. This was emphasized by the easyness to train for it. For these reasons it was still fun to use Drakes, cause they had the power to be able to do most things without a lot of training.

As pilot skill however goes up, the drake becomes less and less attractive it did have some serious flaws, wich ment that specialized fleets could easily destroy drake blobs. The higher the skill points the pilot had the less you would see him in a drake.

Then became an overal good battlecruiser balance pass. The drake suddenly wasn't the best overall choice of Battlecruisers anymore, many are suddenly good in there roles and are preforming on par or better as drakes. The ferox, with the Hybrid gun changes became a viable option and because the power level of the battlecruisers evened out, it became more fun to fly any of them.

However, in the Heavy missiles post a few people already forseen what was going to happen. People would soon find out that Heavy Missiles were going to be a bad choice against almost any target. Its inherent statistics already suggested that. After the patch it was the ONLY weaponsystem that wasn't able to hit the similar sized vessals for 100% damage if conditions were perfect. Comparable immovable targets at optimal range medium sized guns vs Heavy missiles, the guns would hit for 100% of their damage and Heavy missiles wouldn't. Because of this, a lot of people announced and foresaw that most people would switch to Rapid Light missile launchers, especially on those ships that supported bonuses for both.

People already knew what was going to happen, the power level of the Heavy missile was so much dropped, that in average scenarios the Rapid Light missile just did more DPS then the Heavy Missile.

At the same time the Light missile received a 10% damage bonus overal for all its missiles. With a 21% damage application nerf to the Heavy missile, and a 10% bonus to the Light missile, people were eager to test out the Rapid Light missile launcher. And guess what. The fact that you could actually hit your targets for meaning full amounts made it fun to use. Not because the system was overpowered but because The other options had severe setbacks. Ham Missiles have range and damage application problems, combined with still a strange and undesirable fitting problem makes those except on specialized ships like the sacrilege a poor choice. Heavy Missiles, in the past always chosen because the Ham missiles had these problems, suddenly also had Major damage application problems, however against large (Battleship and up) they still perform reasonably. And then we had the now damaged buffed Rapid Light missile launchers.

With the cruisers beeing rebalanced the Rapid Light missile launchers became even more popular. You could fit larger tanks on the cruiserships that used Rapid lights then on many of the gun based ships, the damage application was often better anyway and with no real alternative choice for medium launchers made those launchers popular, dear i even say it fun to use.

Where previously the most scary sight of a frigate pilot would be a Vagabond, rapier or Cynabal, now suddenly Caracals and Bellicoses were also things to be scared about. For Missile based pilots who for years had troubles finding an ACCEPTED, and USEFULL weapon / ship combination against frigates, without themselves beeing in them Fun began.

And then the Whineing of the Frigate pilots, now suddenly claiming Rapid lights were overpowered. Face it, The only thing that happend was a 10% increase in damage for light missiles. Rapid Lights overpowered? Reverse the 10% increase and no one could claim there overpowered right?

Unfortunatly no. Because people actually now have used them and know how they can make Rapid lights work, even reversing the 10% increase won't stop the major use of the weapon system. Not because the system is actually overpowered, but because there still isn't any viable other option. HAMS still a verry unfavorable damage application to range to fittings problem, and the heavy missile just a abysmal damage application.

The fact that youve only seen a slight drop in the use of Rapid Light missile launchers, is NOT because the changes are accepted, Its NOT because its power is now in line with other systems, and is NOT because its now fun to use those systems. It is because of all things considered, its still the only weaponsystem for ships that size that have any resemblance of good damage projection.

So, what can be done to improve the fun factor of the Rapid launchers, a few ideas have already been said.

Rebalance Missiles a a whole, with a special emphasis on the following
Lights might slightly be to strong (although i personally don't agree to this)
Heavy missiles suffer in damage application
Ham Missiles suffer in module fitting requirements.

Add more Modules that alter Missiles, their behavior, and there damage applications.
A missile part for Tracking computers
A missile part for Tracking Enhancers
A Module that addresses reload times for Rapid Missiles (i would suggest rigs)