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Presenting EVE online
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Paul Otichoda
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-01-01 14:10:51 UTC
As YouTube and social media become to a main way to advertise games I feel EVE online is running into a problem with presentation.

Go to any EVE pvp video online (just have a look) and you will see the same statements that the game looks boring to place or that it looks unimpressive.

Ultimately I think the reason for this is best summed up here. basically people call EVE boring because at lot of what makes the game fun is happening in your head as you try to work out if you can kill this guy before you run out of tank. But for people outside the game all their seeing is a crosshair orbiting a blob with some partial effects and stat bars going down. It isn't helped that most PVP channels do their video's zoomed far out. While its gives them more tactical knowledge it also means people can't see the game models and so the game looks less visually impressive than it is.

The solution to this is probably going to be hard both for the community and for the developers. In terms of the community it means EVE related content producers might have to adopted a more cinematic style of camera work and editing but this is hard considering there is no way to save replays or post-edit like in other games. The other issue is EVE's UI while there has been improvements in usability it is still heavily spread sheet based. Now I'm sure a lot of people would play EVE if it was a rendered cockpit with aircraft controls (oh hi! star citizen) but the vast amount to details and complicity of EVE combat and game management makes that impossible.

So yeah in some ways EVE online's presentability is undermined by its UI. Can this be handled? yes but it needs content creators to work harder to make the game look more interesting
RAIN Arthie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-01-01 14:37:12 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
As YouTube and social media become to a main way to advertise games I feel EVE online is running into a problem with presentation.

Go to any EVE pvp video online (just have a look) and you will see the same statements that the game looks boring to place or that it looks unimpressive.

Ultimately I think the reason for this is best summed up here. basically people call EVE boring because at lot of what makes the game fun is happening in your head as you try to work out if you can kill this guy before you run out of tank. But for people outside the game all their seeing is a crosshair orbiting a blob with some partial effects and stat bars going down. It isn't helped that most PVP channels do their video's zoomed far out. While its gives them more tactical knowledge it also means people can't see the game models and so the game looks less visually impressive than it is.

The solution to this is probably going to be hard both for the community and for the developers. In terms of the community it means EVE related content producers might have to adopted a more cinematic style of camera work and editing but this is hard considering there is no way to save replays or post-edit like in other games. The other issue is EVE's UI while there has been improvements in usability it is still heavily spread sheet based. Now I'm sure a lot of people would play EVE if it was a rendered cockpit with aircraft controls (oh hi! star citizen) but the vast amount to details and complicity of EVE combat and game management makes that impossible.

So yeah in some ways EVE online's presentability is undermined by its UI. Can this be handled? yes but it needs content creators to work harder to make the game look more interesting



So true.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#3 - 2014-01-01 14:51:53 UTC
So you're saying that those who record big PVP fights should know their audience? That they should try to make the recordings look more "pretty" for those who don't play Eve rather than those that do?

I think there is some value in that idea. I know when I am watching a lot of fleet PVP videos on YouTube, I really have no idea what's going on. It may be that the allure of the game itself is in the immensity of these fights. Though I can understand while the immensity and scale of the fights are awesome, the visual aesthetics of the game are often lost.

As far as the UI - I would encourage the OP to post in F&I and brainstorm with others about what UI features could make the game more visually striking.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
RAIN Arthie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-01-01 14:56:14 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So you're saying that those who record big PVP fights should know their audience? That they should try to make the recordings look more "pretty" for those who don't play Eve rather than those that do?

I think there is some value in that idea. I know when I am watching a lot of fleet PVP videos on YouTube, I really have no idea what's going on. It may be that the allure of the game itself is in the immensity of these fights. Though I can understand while the immensity and scale of the fights are awesome, the visual aesthetics of the game are often lost.

As far as the UI - I would encourage the OP to post in F&I and brainstorm with others about what UI features could make the game more visually striking.



It's hard to get people involved in spectating when this game is so vast. Imagine EVE ONLINE TV channel. How would you get people to become a target audience for this? WOW is really simple and can be very exciting.
Demica Diaz
SE-1
#5 - 2014-01-01 15:08:00 UTC
EVE does look boring when you try to create content. But in the end is that the real reason for low audience? I mean Guild Wars 2 is very beautiful game when you create content. PvP throws flashy colorful effects and characters jump around making ninja moves and what not. But the viewers or streamers are not that popular. Guild Wars 2 has around 1-2 million players give or take. Thats more than EVE players but yet it suffers same low viewer base on streams as EVE. Their PvP tournament had 5000 viewers, thats 1000 less than popular WoW streamer has every day. So my point is that being visually appealing is just one tiny part of "presenting" your game in media.

I think core things that gets your game out in open is casualness, being easy to play and understand the game is what gets people (aka LoL). Simple game mechanics, which is tied to casualness. When you look at someone playing the game you get rough understanding what is going on and what is he trying to achieve. Fun factor and game speed is great way to make your game popular. None wants to see guy camping 0.0 gate for two hours before catching someone while Guild Wars 2 suffers from too fast PvP, where it is hard to keep up with what is happening. But of course also visuality is important factor, perhaps visual clearness (less spread sheets).

Everything above connects to player base. EVE isnt new mmo, its quite elderly. It is very hard to rise up to attract new people who would boost your player base. Specially when your game isnt really casual friendly or to be very honest here, "not up with times". Thus even if you make best video ever with incredible editing and Hans Zimmer creating you unique soundtrack and Morgan Freeman narrating your PvP adventures. Still your video/stream will have low views compared to games with massive player base.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#6 - 2014-01-01 15:57:18 UTC
Demica Diaz wrote:
EVE does look boring when you try to create content. But in the end is that the real reason for low audience? I mean Guild Wars 2 is very beautiful game when you create content. PvP throws flashy colorful effects and characters jump around making ninja moves and what not. But the viewers or streamers are not that popular. Guild Wars 2 has around 1-2 million players give or take. Thats more than EVE players but yet it suffers same low viewer base on streams as EVE. Their PvP tournament had 5000 viewers, thats 1000 less than popular WoW streamer has every day. So my point is that being visually appealing is just one tiny part of "presenting" your game in media.

I think core things that gets your game out in open is casualness, being easy to play and understand the game is what gets people (aka LoL). Simple game mechanics, which is tied to casualness. When you look at someone playing the game you get rough understanding what is going on and what is he trying to achieve. Fun factor and game speed is great way to make your game popular. None wants to see guy camping 0.0 gate for two hours before catching someone while Guild Wars 2 suffers from too fast PvP, where it is hard to keep up with what is happening. But of course also visuality is important factor, perhaps visual clearness (less spread sheets).

Everything above connects to player base. EVE isnt new mmo, its quite elderly. It is very hard to rise up to attract new people who would boost your player base. Specially when your game isnt really casual friendly or to be very honest here, "not up with times". Thus even if you make best video ever with incredible editing and Hans Zimmer creating you unique soundtrack and Morgan Freeman narrating your PvP adventures. Still your video/stream will have low views compared to games with massive player base.


I have to respectfully disagree. You could show a picture of a cup and as long as Morgan Freeman was talking about the cup, it would be an awesome video. This is not an opinion. This is fact. Big smile

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#7 - 2014-01-01 16:38:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Logical 101
Paul Otichoda wrote:
people

There's your problem right there.

I can take any YouTube video... of anything... and find legions of people ****ing on it.

Eventually, we are going to have to accept that EVE, like everything in life, isn't for everyone.

The fact that it is what it is - that's why I personally like it.

Not everyone is going to enjoy my cup of tea, nor do I want to change the flavor just so more people will drink it.
WASPY69
Xerum.
#8 - 2014-01-01 18:36:01 UTC
I beg to differ good sir!
When I first got into EVE I was watching some videos because i wanted to see how other people played the game, and to get a glimpse of the 1000 vs 1000 man blobs out in null. Now, granted i didn't understand what the hell I was watching I enjoyed hearing the FC rage and seeing big capital space explosions.
The occasional zoom in gave a cool visual of the ship and all the visual FX, but zoomed out i found myself to be able to follow along better as the blue blob of squares slowly killed off the red blob of squares.

Then we have the Alliance Tournament, which is pure eye candy on maxed out settings. Of course, the latter would appeal more to the person who never played EVE before, but the people making pvp videos on youtube mainly make them for the rest of the EVE community. Granted there are some talented people making trailer-like cinematics with editing and whatnot.

So no, I don't believe EVE has a problem with presentation.

This signature intentionally left blank
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#9 - 2014-01-01 19:24:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
This might be part of the solution., If it gets some more attention.

The alliance tournaments are going in the right direction to make Eve more accessible, but they are

  1. Too infrequent
  2. (Still) too technical
  3. Known for metagaming shenanigans that spoil it for viewers
  4. More often than not commentated by people who can't connect with the viewers
  5. Not replicable without CCP's blessing


There is no good way for players to organize and make the game presentable. Live presentation is next to impossible because of the complex nature of Eve, and recording for later processing can only be done via FRAPS or something similar -- meaning that you can only take one shot of ongoing action at one time, which makes almost all forms of presentation impossible. It's why most "cool" and somewhat accessible videos have to be made on a scripted way. Real fights are simply not recordable in a public-accessible way.

I might be able to look at a PvP video and figure out why that 1v3 is so impressive, but to the untrained eye it just looks like 3 boxes disappearing. There is no good way to see damage going back and forth. No way to track the action from a "spectator" perspective. No way to see how fast the ships are moving relative to each other and their environment (and no interesting environment, at that). No way for a non-Eve-er to at least somewhat comprehend what the ships are doing to each other. Eve makes absolutely no sense unless you see its heavy, awful interface and have months of experience dealing with it.

Once CCP enables players to actually record and broadcast stuff in a more advanced manner, and supply the audience with audience-friendly, possibly simplified details of what's going on, the doors open to the creative Eve community to figure out shows, tournaments, action captures, and other media to show Eve to the world.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#10 - 2014-01-01 20:43:01 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
As YouTube and social media become to a main way to advertise games I feel EVE online is running into a problem with presentation.

Go to any EVE pvp video online (just have a look) and you will see the same statements that the game looks boring to place or that it looks unimpressive.

Ultimately I think the reason for this is best summed up here. basically people call EVE boring because at lot of what makes the game fun is happening in your head as you try to work out if you can kill this guy before you run out of tank. But for people outside the game all their seeing is a crosshair orbiting a blob with some partial effects and stat bars going down. It isn't helped that most PVP channels do their video's zoomed far out. While its gives them more tactical knowledge it also means people can't see the game models and so the game looks less visually impressive than it is.

The solution to this is probably going to be hard both for the community and for the developers. In terms of the community it means EVE related content producers might have to adopted a more cinematic style of camera work and editing but this is hard considering there is no way to save replays or post-edit like in other games. The other issue is EVE's UI while there has been improvements in usability it is still heavily spread sheet based. Now I'm sure a lot of people would play EVE if it was a rendered cockpit with aircraft controls (oh hi! star citizen) but the vast amount to details and complicity of EVE combat and game management makes that impossible.

So yeah in some ways EVE online's presentability is undermined by its UI. Can this be handled? yes but it needs content creators to work harder to make the game look more interesting


You make a few valid points. Especially that Eve PVP has a lot more to do with what you perceive as the relative worth of the ships in combat, their modules, etc, the value of the clones and implants at stake, etc, than the actual "pew pew" (lack of) eye candy going on on the screen. BUT: Eve is a niche product targeted at a niche audience. We've lived with this (and worse than this) for many years and we don't seem to mind.

Making Eve combat more "mainstream" risks offending the core players, which I'm sure CCP would rather keep, for the "promise" of maybe more subs from the general audience. Changing anything related to PvP is a major change to the game, and it's not a decision I would take lightly if EvE was my product.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-01-01 20:52:22 UTC
I think the real question here is, would a T2 EvE be overpowered?

Huehuehuehuehue.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#12 - 2014-01-01 22:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: SpaceSaft
Well yeah things would indeed be significantly easier if CCP released the tools they themselves use to render the trailers and use them to make recent battles look nice. The most important points in that respect would be:


  • independent camera movement
  • and or slower, adjustable transitions between focal points
  • an interface that you can selectively hide. Nobody wants to see the 95% of the ships that aren't in danger or empty dscans or cycle timers ticking down. Those are boring.



Also needed are things to actually create in the sandbox. We're living 99% according to CCPs rules. There are no mega sturctures players can build like in Minecraft (you can't see corp structures or sov space), there are no areas players can restrict and rule over (the word "sovereignity" actually has a meaning wink wink) and create custom leagues where you can create a tournament atmosphere or other stuff and there are absolutely no things players can do and record to promote the game in any way. Except big fleet battles. But if you have seen 5 seconds of one you have seen them all. It's about a relatively small circular indicator going red. Slow or fast. You usually don't know or care about the meta game of that battle and there is no big strategic overview either. At least I can never get excited for them because of that.

Overall I'd say that CCP is very bad at using the players to create publicity for them. There are ways to do it but I think that most are a long way off for CCP.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-01-02 00:08:27 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Demica Diaz wrote:
EVE does look boring when you try to create content. But in the end is that the real reason for low audience? I mean Guild Wars 2 is very beautiful game when you create content. PvP throws flashy colorful effects and characters jump around making ninja moves and what not. But the viewers or streamers are not that popular. Guild Wars 2 has around 1-2 million players give or take. Thats more than EVE players but yet it suffers same low viewer base on streams as EVE. Their PvP tournament had 5000 viewers, thats 1000 less than popular WoW streamer has every day. So my point is that being visually appealing is just one tiny part of "presenting" your game in media.

I think core things that gets your game out in open is casualness, being easy to play and understand the game is what gets people (aka LoL). Simple game mechanics, which is tied to casualness. When you look at someone playing the game you get rough understanding what is going on and what is he trying to achieve. Fun factor and game speed is great way to make your game popular. None wants to see guy camping 0.0 gate for two hours before catching someone while Guild Wars 2 suffers from too fast PvP, where it is hard to keep up with what is happening. But of course also visuality is important factor, perhaps visual clearness (less spread sheets).

Everything above connects to player base. EVE isnt new mmo, its quite elderly. It is very hard to rise up to attract new people who would boost your player base. Specially when your game isnt really casual friendly or to be very honest here, "not up with times". Thus even if you make best video ever with incredible editing and Hans Zimmer creating you unique soundtrack and Morgan Freeman narrating your PvP adventures. Still your video/stream will have low views compared to games with massive player base.


I have to respectfully disagree. You could show a picture of a cup and as long as Morgan Freeman was talking about the cup, it would be an awesome video. This is not an opinion. This is fact. Big smile

"Cup" by Morgan Freeman would get nominated for awards.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-01-02 00:18:45 UTC
WASPY69 wrote:
I beg to differ good sir!
When I first got into EVE I was watching some videos because i wanted to see how other people played the game, and to get a glimpse of the 1000 vs 1000 man blobs out in null. Now, granted i didn't understand what the hell I was watching I enjoyed hearing the FC rage and seeing big capital space explosions.
The occasional zoom in gave a cool visual of the ship and all the visual FX, but zoomed out i found myself to be able to follow along better as the blue blob of squares slowly killed off the red blob of squares.

Then we have the Alliance Tournament, which is pure eye candy on maxed out settings. Of course, the latter would appeal more to the person who never played EVE before, but the people making pvp videos on youtube mainly make them for the rest of the EVE community. Granted there are some talented people making trailer-like cinematics with editing and whatnot.

So no, I don't believe EVE has a problem with presentation.

When i first came to EVE, it was about a year after NGE of SWG. was so pissed since i had lived through the U and then NGE, alot of my friends were quitting ebcause the game wasnt the same and was "too WoW". Eventually we decided on the only other game where RP, risk, planning, community, and military domination actually mattered, Battestar Galactica Online.

After 6 months of that ad dealing with cylons dropping 200 USD on the game to insta-pwn fleets, we came to EVE. Never left, never will.

Prolly the only thing that will drive me from EVE is another Push For Casual, which will likely make me lose my faith in gaming and never play an MMO again, or a resuscitation of an MMO like Pre-Cu (or at least WAY pre-NGE) SWG, that might actually steal me away. until then though, making people's lives in EVE horrible will more than suffice.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-01-02 00:20:50 UTC
SpaceSaft wrote:
Well yeah things would indeed be significantly easier if CCP released the tools they themselves use to render the trailers and use them to make recent battles look nice. The most important points in that respect would be:


  • independent camera movement
  • and or slower, adjustable transitions between focal points
  • an interface that you can selectively hide. Nobody wants to see the 95% of the ships that aren't in danger or empty dscans or cycle timers ticking down. Those are boring.



Also needed are things to actually create in the sandbox. We're living 99% according to CCPs rules. There are no mega sturctures players can build like in Minecraft (you can't see corp structures or sov space), there are no areas players can restrict and rule over (the word "sovereignity" actually has a meaning wink wink) and create custom leagues where you can create a tournament atmosphere or other stuff and there are absolutely no things players can do and record to promote the game in any way. Except big fleet battles. But if you have seen 5 seconds of one you have seen them all. It's about a relatively small circular indicator going red. Slow or fast. You usually don't know or care about the meta game of that battle and there is no big strategic overview either. At least I can never get excited for them because of that.

Overall I'd say that CCP is very bad at using the players to create publicity for them. There are ways to do it but I think that most are a long way off for CCP.

CCP wanted mega-structures buildable block-by-block in space, it was MOdular POS, they decided it was too hard and are going to do something completely different.

As far as player-run tournaments, we already have those, did one in Esescama the other day, only difference is anyone who wants is free to **** on your parade, since CCP wont hold your ahnd and give you perfect-instanced-safe-dueling
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-01-02 00:21:18 UTC
+1 battle recorder. That really would take player videos to another level.

Also, if you are comparing eve to twitchy kill monster avatar based mmo's, which is the majority of mmo's, actual eve gameplay will always look lacking. I believe a better comparison is with RTS games, which eve is really. In this case eve is pretty much on par. RTS's are a harder type of game to do a sexy pvp vid with.

Like previous posters have stated, most of the real game is in your head, over comms and often over a longer period of time than the frapsed denouement can depict.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#17 - 2014-01-02 00:22:54 UTC
To the Op.
Watch Video's by Rooks & Kings.
Then come back and tell me those videos are boring and hard to understand.
The Clarion Call set are probably their best set personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrYe_4vHzgE
Roel Yento
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-01-02 00:39:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To the Op.
Watch Video's by Rooks & Kings.
Then come back and tell me those videos are boring and hard to understand.
The Clarion Call set are probably their best set personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrYe_4vHzgE


+1 for this guy.
RnK should be responsible for producing all official eve videos. Tons of people put videos up but they suck because they give no backstory, description of what is going on, or scope of what is happening on a grander scale. Huge part of pvp in this game is setting up the fight yet so many vids exclude that part from their vids or explaining their actions during the fight.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#19 - 2014-01-02 00:46:48 UTC
DeLoneWolf is also fairly good, he's done video's of a lot of the live events that have happened, pretty sure he's responsible for the 'player made post trailer' from the Caldari Prime event. That mixed in CCP's 'official' footage with actual live battle footage. But a lot of his video's tend to be solo ship or live events rather than null sec/wh fleet action like RnK.
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#20 - 2014-01-02 00:55:15 UTC
EvE online is too complicated, most people prefer games that are easy to master and give a lot fun or adrenaline in short period after start playing.

Deal with this even CCP spent milions of dolars on promotion they wont get milions of new subscribers, because of gamers needs... exept CCP change game mechanics and game fatures - style.

EvE isn't game, its style of living.
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