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ISIS-like interface for BPs
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Crispy Orlenard
Snuggle Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2013-11-27 02:52:23 UTC
First things first, I love the ISIS interface because it gives me a visual goal to work towards in the mastery. I have been thinking that there should be an ISIS-like interface for the blueprints, shows you the different categories of manufacturable items. tells you what you can produce and the research time put into them as well as the time it takes to copy/produce. It would be of great use to the entire community of industry pilots as well as people starting out new toons who want to look into the industry career.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-11-27 03:02:50 UTC
Supported, ISIS is a great tool that has potential for use in multiple areas.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
LiBraga
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-11-27 12:18:26 UTC
And what about those people who actually put in time creating out of game tools / spreadsheets to do this.

Effectively you want to simplify your production without putting the effort in.

Ask any seasoned industrialist and they will talk about spreadsheets... or Fuzzworks or some other site.

Eve isn't supposed to be easy... you're supposed to think about things.

Go download the EVE data dump, perform recursive queries and output it how you like, adding in your math.
The more tools CCP provides takes EVE away from being a open sandbox.

In Industry remember that
Effort = Reward

If it moves.... You obviously didn't kill it the first time.
NearNihil
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#4 - 2013-11-27 13:32:44 UTC
LiBraga wrote:
[...]
stuff and words
[...]

In Industry remember that
Effort = Reward
Then one could also argue that ISIS is for the stupid and that any seasoned pilot uses EFT and/or Pyfa to see what ships they can fly and that it's not supposed to be intuitive what you can do with which ship and when you can do it.

Bollocks to that, I support this idea.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-11-27 15:13:07 UTC
It doesn't have to take away the effort of efficient industry strategy's, just like ISIS doesn't take away the use of ETF.

It could have different categories such as Ships, charges, drones, capital, modules (probably a break down on this one for different sub categories) and so on.

Something neat would be roll over option to show what is needed for invention of the T2 version if any T2 version exists.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#6 - 2013-11-27 15:22:42 UTC
This would be massive task I imgaine. To say that there are 300 ships in EVE which can be broken into Races and easily navigable e.g. you have to have Frigate IV to get to BS etc (that's just an illustration not actual fact).

With BP's what you have is one for every module, charge, component, rig and now Implants plus all the other things. That's thousands of BP's that need to be illustrated in an ISIS format with rollover information.

I don't think this is needed because it's not that hard to search the market and view the information on the BPO info for invention, manufacturing times, requirements, components etc and is in fact easier as you can link into the Market from it to check prices, locations etc. Admittedly I haven't tried this with ISIS in the background so this may work as well with ISIS.

Personally, I like my spreadsheets and resources on other sites and the sheer volume of effort required to make a BP version of ISIS I don't see as being a massive return.

Just my thoughts, nothing personal.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
LiBraga
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-11-27 16:53:30 UTC
NearNihil wrote:
LiBraga wrote:
[...]
stuff and words
[...]

In Industry remember that
Effort = Reward
Then one could also argue that ISIS is for the stupid and that any seasoned pilot uses EFT and/or Pyfa to see what ships they can fly and that it's not supposed to be intuitive what you can do with which ship and when you can do it.

Bollocks to that, I support this idea.



EFT is used primarily for.... fitting.... not what i can fly... otherwise it would be called EVE "What Can I Fly" Tool.

ISIS is used for a quick glance of "can I fly that ship ?"... not to view things that require calculations.

ISIS for BPOs in your example would be "can I build that" but that's not what the poster is after.
He's after how long would it take me to research that, how long to build it, what minerals do I need etc etc etc.

Which brings me back to spreadsheets and apps....
-> Effort = Reward

If it moves.... You obviously didn't kill it the first time.
Crispy Orlenard
Snuggle Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#8 - 2013-11-28 22:42:26 UTC
LiBraga wrote:
NearNihil wrote:
LiBraga wrote:
[...]
stuff and words
[...]

In Industry remember that
Effort = Reward
Then one could also argue that ISIS is for the stupid and that any seasoned pilot uses EFT and/or Pyfa to see what ships they can fly and that it's not supposed to be intuitive what you can do with which ship and when you can do it.

Bollocks to that, I support this idea.



EFT is used primarily for.... fitting.... not what i can fly... otherwise it would be called EVE "What Can I Fly" Tool.

ISIS is used for a quick glance of "can I fly that ship ?"... not to view things that require calculations.

ISIS for BPOs in your example would be "can I build that" but that's not what the poster is after.
He's after how long would it take me to research that, how long to build it, what minerals do I need etc etc etc.

Which brings me back to spreadsheets and apps....
-> Effort = Reward


What im after is a mastery of sorts like in the isis interface, doesnt need to tell me how many minerals i need, needs to tell me my material research level etc.
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-11-29 08:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronny Hugo
LiBraga wrote:

Eve isn't supposed to be easy... you're supposed to think about things.

Yes to the second, yes to the first. But this is what happens when you make something easier to do: You can do more, and the best of the best then do more than ten noobs. Its like when you add a GUI to an RTS game that allows you to be more effective, you increase the level of gameplay. When they make jet aircraft easier to fly they do more fantastic and difficult things.
By raising the bar, everyone play better, and we have an even greater time (unless your idea of fun is to pawn newbies that offer as little resistance as a bug on a front bumper. But then you play PVE Lol ).

in other words, +1 from me to any organization ideas that make it easier to administrate things so we can raise the bar.
Crispy Orlenard
Snuggle Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#10 - 2013-12-31 12:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crispy Orlenard
Haven't been on forum much layely, I'm bumping.
Dori Tos
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-12-31 17:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dori Tos
LiBraga wrote:
And what about those people who actually put in time creating out of game tools / spreadsheets to do this.

Effectively you want to simplify your production without putting the effort in.

Ask any seasoned industrialist and they will talk about spreadsheets... or Fuzzworks or some other site.

Eve isn't supposed to be easy... you're supposed to think about things.

Go download the EVE data dump, perform recursive queries and output it how you like, adding in your math.
The more tools CCP provides takes EVE away from being a open sandbox.

In Industry remember that
Effort = Reward


Yeah right,let's not make the game better because some people have developed out of game tools to do the job.Sorry man but that is very bad logic you got there,in fact what this game needs is to not require any third party tools / spreadsheets at all.

I'd like the fitting menu to be used like EFT.
I'd like eve gate and the in-game skill menu to be used like EVE mon.
I'd like the map menu to be as informative as dotlan or ombeve.

And I most definitely would like a ISIS style interface for BP.

I support this idea.+1

I'm delicious.
Crispy Orlenard
Snuggle Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#12 - 2014-01-01 01:48:08 UTC
Dori Tos wrote:
LiBraga wrote:
And what about those people who actually put in time creating out of game tools / spreadsheets to do this.

Effectively you want to simplify your production without putting the effort in.

Ask any seasoned industrialist and they will talk about spreadsheets... or Fuzzworks or some other site.

Eve isn't supposed to be easy... you're supposed to think about things.

Go download the EVE data dump, perform recursive queries and output it how you like, adding in your math.
The more tools CCP provides takes EVE away from being a open sandbox.

In Industry remember that
Effort = Reward


Yeah right,let's not make the game better because some people have developed out of game tools to do the job.Sorry man but that is very bad logic you got there,in fact what this game needs is to not require any third party tools / spreadsheets at all.

I'd like the fitting menu to be used like EFT.
I'd like eve gate and the in-game skill menu to be used like EVE mon.
I'd like the map menu to be as informative as dotlan or ombeve.

And I most definitely would like a ISIS style interface for BP.

I support this idea.+1



I like this idea, Eve should interface everything itself, im sure there would still be out of game applications to help but not having to leave my game screen would be much better.
Claud Tiberius
#13 - 2014-01-01 02:41:45 UTC
LiBraga wrote:
And what about those people who actually put in time creating out of game tools / spreadsheets to do this.

Use the software in their own game. Or if they are fortunate enough, CCP might make them an offer. Regardless CCP can implement the idea better. And why shouldn't they? They own EVE.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#14 - 2014-01-01 03:59:07 UTC
Ronny Hugo wrote:
[quote=LiBraga]By raising the bar, everyone play better, and we have an even greater time (unless your idea of fun is to pawn newbies that offer as little resistance as a bug on a front bumper. But then you play PVE Lol ).

in other words, +1 from me to any organization ideas that make it easier to administrate things so we can raise the bar.


in all honesty I doubt it will raise the bar in fact it will lower it.

The game has already been dumbed down a fair bit already with regards to the skill changes to make things a lot easier for new players yet people still want that to be lowered more. I'd say that's pretty true for incursion runners these days as of since the last skill change and more people being able to get T2 weapons faster thinking that's all they need and yet they're still missing core gunnery skills.

The thing with industry work is that you need specialised characters and have a keen business like mind to be able to build the things you want to sell to make a profit and when you rely on applications that pull data from the game it will not give you an accurate reading on how much profit you truly make or if you are making a loss as it does not always have the correct prices when looking at purchasing the minerals and components.

This is why spreadsheets are pretty much a requirement if you want to build for profit. Some of us put a lot of time and effort into updating and maintaining spreadsheets to know which item to build at the time that will sell at a nice rate for a pretty decent income.

The idea to put something similar into the game so that players that don't want to make their own spreadsheets or test out those applications that are already out there will just increase the amount of lazy players in the game who want to be gifted everything instead of putting time and effort into working for something themselves. does that to you look like its raising the bar?

another aspect would be that it would also introduce more 0.01 isk'rs to the market as well but on the upside it would also introduce more bpo buyers so those that research the bpos will enjoy taking the isk from them players.
Dori Tos
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-01-01 07:39:29 UTC
sci0gon wrote:
Ronny Hugo wrote:
[quote=LiBraga]By raising the bar, everyone play better, and we have an even greater time (unless your idea of fun is to pawn newbies that offer as little resistance as a bug on a front bumper. But then you play PVE Lol ).

in other words, +1 from me to any organization ideas that make it easier to administrate things so we can raise the bar.


in all honesty I doubt it will raise the bar in fact it will lower it.

The game has already been dumbed down a fair bit already with regards to the skill changes to make things a lot easier for new players yet people still want that to be lowered more. I'd say that's pretty true for incursion runners these days as of since the last skill change and more people being able to get T2 weapons faster thinking that's all they need and yet they're still missing core gunnery skills.

The thing with industry work is that you need specialised characters and have a keen business like mind to be able to build the things you want to sell to make a profit and when you rely on applications that pull data from the game it will not give you an accurate reading on how much profit you truly make or if you are making a loss as it does not always have the correct prices when looking at purchasing the minerals and components.

This is why spreadsheets are pretty much a requirement if you want to build for profit. Some of us put a lot of time and effort into updating and maintaining spreadsheets to know which item to build at the time that will sell at a nice rate for a pretty decent income.

The idea to put something similar into the game so that players that don't want to make their own spreadsheets or test out those applications that are already out there will just increase the amount of lazy players in the game who want to be gifted everything instead of putting time and effort into working for something themselves. does that to you look like its raising the bar?

another aspect would be that it would also introduce more 0.01 isk'rs to the market as well but on the upside it would also introduce more bpo buyers so those that research the bpos will enjoy taking the isk from them players.


Are today's mathematicians more dumb because we invented calculators?

Inventing a system to help you with your work isn't "dumbing it down",it's stepping up the game,we couldn't do what we can do with science today if it wasn't for all the computers that do most of the laborious work for us.

Also,let's try to keep in mind here that EVE online is a video game,a complex one sure,but still a video game,it's made to have fun,and some people are paying a subscription because they want to have fun playing as a space scientist or whatever.I understand there are people out there who take the internet spaceship business extremely seriously but please just chill and allow more casual people to have fun too.We don't have to "dumb down" things,we just have to make it less tedious,just like a calculator does for mathematics.

I'm delicious.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#16 - 2014-01-01 09:01:27 UTC
Supported.

This doesn't need (and probably shouldn't) be an all-in-one calculator for determining research time and material needs and everything (there are quite excellent out of game apps for that already). On the other hand, a simple listing of 'you need x, y, and z obscure skills to invent with blueprint a', in the style of ISIS mastery pages, would be handy. It wouldn't provide you with any info you can't already get in-game, but the easy indexing would make things more convenient. As with ISIS, this is especially a convenience for new players, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea.