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Just get rid of Science, Manufacturing, Trade and Planetary Exploitation

First post
Author
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#21 - 2013-12-05 04:57:16 UTC
Just get rid of your character.

Go play WoW.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#22 - 2013-12-05 23:57:22 UTC
Endovior wrote:
...what rock have you been living under? Drones are awesome these days, and the Dominix is the king of space, crushing all opposition under the iron fist of sentry drone assist.


I fly a Rattlesnake.

Your move.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2013-12-06 01:43:40 UTC
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?

What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)

And currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.

If you are going to devolve the game to just ship to ship combat and mission running, DO IT!

And give us credit for the time and effort we spent gaining skills in things which you have decided to make worthless.

As a 6 year player, I am just about done wasting time with this game.

Mail me for my fire sale prices of modules etc.

A disgruntled player.


I feel so much empathy for your position. Please send me a list of firesale items....
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#24 - 2013-12-06 03:03:17 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Endovior wrote:
...what rock have you been living under? Drones are awesome these days, and the Dominix is the king of space, crushing all opposition under the iron fist of sentry drone assist.


I fly a Rattlesnake.

Your move.


If you can fly a rattlesnake, you can fly a Dominix. If the performance of your shiny doesn't match your desires, that's too damn bad... but don't be too butthurt about it, since the pirate rebalance is next on the list. Buffs are likely incoming.
brinelan
#25 - 2013-12-12 19:17:51 UTC
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?


Stopped reading here. If you can't find a single item that makes money you're doing it wrong. Besides, who would make the ships you get blown up in?
Captain Meric
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-12-29 18:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Meric
After building up my first character, I started making industry characters to help corp and alliances I had been in. Making some isk in the process as well and I imagine would have made even more if I had been in a null group at the same time with JF to come in and out.

I do think the industry needs to be tweaked a little. I haven't done any mining or industry since they changed the mining barges so I maybe a little outdated

Get rid of T2 BPO's or make T2 BPO's available for everyone. I really do not understand why this has not been done and why a lot of other aren't off the rails about them being around. I like the invention of T2 BPO's and the odds or success or fail on them. But some people / groups having T2 BPO's sitting around and others not able to get them is wrong for a sandbox game where competition in the markets is everything. So fix the mistakes made so long ago and give people equal footing. If you force them out then you have to give them something to make up for the time invested and such, but that is on CCP to figure out (or smarter people than myself ) what compensation should be.


Data cores - I would like to see these go back to being free, but if you don't do the daily mission, you hit a snag and don't gain any of the points for a new Data core. I would make these missions a little harder, a little longer, and spawn in a random way (as in, you get them sometime in the next week, not one a day so you don't have to mission for them every day, but every day you wait after you get assigned a mission the less points you get towards data cores )

PI - While I didn't agree with CCP having high sec POCO's be taken by player corporations (as really it only hurts new players who where looking to try PI before moving it to low or null, guess there is still SISI for testing stuff ) I still like PI a little. I do wish there was more powergrid and CPU for the stuff, and I liked the older system when it fist came out to what we have now, but PI you can make money, and doesn't take too long to train so new people can get into it and make money by themselves or with others. If you cannot do anything with one toon, make another on the same account train the (I think a month or so ) on that toon for perfect skills and grab yourself more planets making higher tier stuff.

I would like to see a tutorial for new players on PI, perhaps even giving on of the Skill books for it. (or just link someones YouTube tutorial about it in the industry agents missions )


So, for the TL:DR, Get rid / make available T2 BPO's for everyone, Data core change again, perhaps other/advanced skills for more PG/CPU on PI and a tutorial for PI for new pilots.

I have found that I actually usually like industry more than I like shooting others. Both are fun though and what makes this game worth it to me. If you are smart, you won't be scammed ( in fact, just don't look at local or contracts and you will be fine most of the time ) And have made plenty of isk selling my items, even when giving some to other corp mates and corp for war stocks.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#27 - 2013-12-31 21:10:49 UTC
Captain Meric wrote:
After building up my first character, I started making industry characters to help corp and alliances I had been in. Making some isk in the process as well and I imagine would have made even more if I had been in a null group at the same time with JF to come in and out.

I do think the industry needs to be tweaked a little. I haven't done any mining or industry since they changed the mining barges so I maybe a little outdated


Here are the main issues with your post:

Captain Meric wrote:

Get rid of T2 BPO's or make T2 BPO's available for everyone. I really do not understand why this has not been done and why a lot of other aren't off the rails about them being around. I like the invention of T2 BPO's and the odds or success or fail on them. But some people / groups having T2 BPO's sitting around and others not able to get them is wrong for a sandbox game where competition in the markets is everything. So fix the mistakes made so long ago and give people equal footing. If you force them out then you have to give them something to make up for the time invested and such, but that is on CCP to figure out (or smarter people than myself ) what compensation should be.


First off, T2 BPO's were handed out "fairly" by lottery. Those few that weren't (T20 incident) were addressed, and resulted in CCP creating an internal affairs group to prevent recurrances of similar game abuses. Next, for most t2 items in game, invention is profitable. For those that aren't, the reason invention isn't profitable is because the demand for those items is too low. Removing T2 BPO's will simply increase the price of these low-demand items for the end user. Do you want to pay more for an Eagle just so Mr-Idiot-Manufacturer can potentially invent the item for a profit? Furthermore, most T2 BPO's today are in the hands of investors that didn't acquire their BPO by luck of lotto, but by hard work grinding, stealing, or whatever. The bottom line, there is no good reason to remove T2 BPO's, and I challenge you to come up with one. There is one area of BPO's that should be addressed (note, I'm talking about ALL BPOs). Their useage needs to involve more risk. Example idea: to manufacture from a BPO, that bpo needs to be in a POS Lab (The major downside of this, it would inhibit new players entering the manufacturing field.)

Captain Meric wrote:


Data cores - I would like to see these go back to being free, but if you don't do the daily mission, you hit a snag and don't gain any of the points for a new Data core. I would make these missions a little harder, a little longer, and spawn in a random way (as in, you get them sometime in the next week, not one a day so you don't have to mission for them every day, but every day you wait after you get assigned a mission the less points you get towards data cores )


Datacores are available using Faction Warfare LP. I'd love to see stats on the "precentage of datacores produced from RP Agents" vs "FW LP Stores". I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure RP farming is over and done with. Frankly, I see no reason to remove the datacore cost to be removed. It is a good isk sink in a game that needs more isk sinks, not less. (On that line, station S&I lines should have their operational costs increased 100x to create another quality isk sink, while also encouraging POS S&I!).

Captain Meric wrote:

PI - While I didn't agree with CCP having high sec POCO's be taken by player corporations (as really it only hurts new players who where looking to try PI before moving it to low or null, guess there is still SISI for testing stuff ) I still like PI a little. I do wish there was more powergrid and CPU for the stuff, and I liked the older system when it fist came out to what we have now, but PI you can make money, and doesn't take too long to train so new people can get into it and make money by themselves or with others. If you cannot do anything with one toon, make another on the same account train the (I think a month or so ) on that toon for perfect skills and grab yourself more planets making higher tier stuff.

I would like to see a tutorial for new players on PI, perhaps even giving on of the Skill books for it. (or just link someones YouTube tutorial about it in the industry agents missions )


Highsec POCO's have generally made highsec PI production cheaper, not more expensive. There is a skill to reduce NPC taxes, and player taxes are quite often lower than the Interbus rate. Granted, in really busy systems, or in periods of conflict and flux, the reliability of a decent tax rate is questionable, but conflict is good!

Haraukiae Youik
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-01-05 17:11:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?

What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)

And currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.

If you are going to devolve the game to just ship to ship combat and mission running, DO IT!

And give us credit for the time and effort we spent gaining skills in things which you have decided to make worthless.

As a 6 year player, I am just about done wasting time with this game.

Mail me for my fire sale prices of modules etc.

A disgruntled player.


Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying.


You are a CSM member and this is your response "Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying?"

Is it possible at all that you could enter into a somewhat rational discussion of game mechanics and the direction that CCP and/or others have pushed this game?

I recently returned and I'm beginning to see that the game is now worse than when I left. If I want a drama-queen game then I can play "Hello Kitty."

CCP == WAKE UP. Your game subscriptions are stagnant and you have pushed the game into the hands of a few people and ignored game mechanics for the sake of holding on to these "Big Fish."

PS I've scanned a few of the forums and find that the responses to legitimate questions, as indicative of how people feel they can act, are less than juvenile, sophomoric or rude. Intelligence wise "bestial" comes to mind. This is not a problem of moderation but of the kind of mindset that CCP is encouraging in its players.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-01-06 13:12:38 UTC
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on .... manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?...


Malcanis wrote:
Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying.



Haraukiae Youik wrote:
...You are a CSM member and this is your response ...


I believe Malcanis is correct.

My 'skills' in manufacturing are poor, yet my character is making a good profit. I kind of doubt I am the only one making ISK manufacturing items.
Jericho D'Angel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-01-07 19:40:52 UTC
Yes, I agree, please devolve oh disgruntled player. Perhaps back to the trees with thee would be less stressful an environment as clearly your attempt to evolve from, was, indeed, a mistake.
Ekkentros Mercari
EVE Landscape Services
#31 - 2014-01-09 01:53:37 UTC
Haraukiae Youik wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying.


You are a CSM member and this is your response "Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying?"

Is it possible at all that you could enter into a somewhat rational discussion of game mechanics and the direction that CCP and/or others have pushed this game?

I recently returned and I'm beginning to see that the game is now worse than when I left. If I want a drama-queen game then I can play "Hello Kitty."

CCP == WAKE UP. Your game subscriptions are stagnant and you have pushed the game into the hands of a few people and ignored game mechanics for the sake of holding on to these "Big Fish."

PS I've scanned a few of the forums and find that the responses to legitimate questions, as indicative of how people feel they can act, are less than juvenile, sophomoric or rude. Intelligence wise "bestial" comes to mind. This is not a problem of moderation but of the kind of mindset that CCP is encouraging in its players.

The responses to this thread aren't terribly constructive because, well, the OP wasn't terribly well thought out.

Psyue even hinted at the answer, but didn't realise the significance. "Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?" If a project isn't profitable, players won't take part in it. When players stop taking part in it, supply falls. When supply falls, (owing to the supply/demand mantra), prices rise. When prices rise such that the item becomes profitable again, players begin menufacturing again.

As always, the complaints regarding an activity being too difficult does not lie in a flaw in the game, it lies in a flaw in the player. Psyue has reacted too slowly to new profitable deals, doesn't react in time when deals become unprofitable and generally expects too much for very little effort. He's losing out because other players sare simply doing a better job than him, end of story.

TL;DR: Don't reply.

Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-01-09 03:33:53 UTC
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?

What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)

And currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.

If you are going to devolve the game to just ship to ship combat and mission running, DO IT!

And give us credit for the time and effort we spent gaining skills in things which you have decided to make worthless.

As a 6 year player, I am just about done wasting time with this game.

Mail me for my fire sale prices of modules etc.

A disgruntled player.


i have 1 high sec PI char , 2 low sec and 1 null sec. i make a ton of isk from PI and the recent high sec changes have lowered my taxes.
Manufacturing makes the majority of my isk with a 10 mill SP char.
i do a ton of invention (although that is a minority of my manufacturing income)
trade is fine but i don't have the patience for more than dabbling.
i spend a bit of time doing exploration /wh diving and sometimes missioning and have a FW alt about to try that.
all my income goes to PVP because i enjoy that even though i am bad at it.
still at least i don't suck at the trivially easy bits of eve like you OP.
i am less than a year old have i would guess a ton more assets and isk than you for far less effort.
work smarter not harder.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-01-09 03:38:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I treasure them all.

luckily for you someone else quoted you after i skipped most of the threat in order to tell OP what you said but in a less pithy manner. went back through thread in order to find your post and like it.
also found yet another plea for a downvote button and liked that too.
i most often ask for downvote buttons in features and ideas threads but this subforum seems ideally suited also.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-01-14 20:33:04 UTC
[i wrote:
You are a CSM member and this is your response "Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying?"[/i]

Is it possible at all that you could enter into a somewhat rational discussion of game mechanics and the direction that CCP and/or others have pushed this game?

I recently returned and I'm beginning to see that the game is now worse than when I left. If I want a drama-queen game then I can play "Hello Kitty."

CCP == WAKE UP. Your game subscriptions are stagnant and you have pushed the game into the hands of a few people and ignored game mechanics for the sake of holding on to these "Big Fish."

PS I've scanned a few of the forums and find that the responses to legitimate questions, as indicative of how people feel they can act, are less than juvenile, sophomoric or rude. Intelligence wise "bestial" comes to mind. This is not a problem of moderation but of the kind of mindset that CCP is encouraging in its players.


Have to agree. Just as an FYI to the CSM member mentioned, the player behind Psyue Mi has been in game design and was computer gaming long before there even was an internet - so have I. We've got enough crap in our hangers to sell off to plex these accounts for years - but to what end? We've made a few suggestions over the years (mostly ignored) and have pretty much come to the conclusion that CCP is just clueless, and the CSM is a joke.

In the end CCP - the game actually has to remain FUN to bring in and retain players.
Mr Beardsley
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-01-16 04:25:18 UTC
You'll never get much constructive feedback on here for the same reason people usually can't change their governments without torches and pitchforks. The entrenched big players like things exactly the way they are - completely skewed towards serving CCP and its crony alliances, who are usually one and the same. The dominate the forums the same way they dominate the game itself. Never forget that CCP "made the game they wanted to play". One big problem has always been the complete lack of competition..there's no other AAA space MMOs out there. But that will be changing soon, so once the trickle of lost subs becomes a raging torrent perhaps CCP will finally start getting serious about fixing and balancing their game. Who knows, maybe we'll see many of those veteran exploiters quitting in droves once they have to start working for their ISK and/or griefing. Then we can ask if we can haz their stuff :)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#36 - 2014-01-16 08:50:55 UTC
Haraukiae Youik wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?

What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)

And currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.

If you are going to devolve the game to just ship to ship combat and mission running, DO IT!

And give us credit for the time and effort we spent gaining skills in things which you have decided to make worthless.

As a 6 year player, I am just about done wasting time with this game.

Mail me for my fire sale prices of modules etc.

A disgruntled player.


Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying.


You are a CSM member and this is your response "Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying?"


That's right, buttercup. I'm not Mr Rogers, the OP isn't special to me and I don't think he's fine just the way he is.

Tens of thousands of players manage just fine making their income from invention, manufacturing and so forth. The OP is the whiny fat kid complaining that athletics aren't fair because he doesn't get to win.

What he needs to do is, metaphorically speaking, cut out the snickers and skittles and run his fat ass around the block a few times instead of bawwing for special treatment.

(Luckily what he actually needs to do is considerably less energetic and he can actually keep right on troughing the skittles. All he needs to actually do is play a competitive game just like those tens of other thousands of players did.)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2014-01-16 08:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Mr Beardsley wrote:
You'll never get much constructive feedback on here for the same reason people usually can't change their governments without torches and pitchforks. The entrenched big players like things exactly the way they are - completely skewed towards serving CCP and its crony alliances, who are usually one and the same. The dominate the forums the same way they dominate the game itself. Never forget that CCP "made the game they wanted to play". One big problem has always been the complete lack of competition..there's no other AAA space MMOs out there. But that will be changing soon, so once the trickle of lost subs becomes a raging torrent perhaps CCP will finally start getting serious about fixing and balancing their game. Who knows, maybe we'll see many of those veteran exploiters quitting in droves once they have to start working for their ISK and/or griefing. Then we can ask if we can haz their stuff :)



You forgot to put in the bits about RMT and botting, but otherwise a credible effort.

Oh and this kind of post traditionally includes at least one ellipsis....

Overall, I give you a B

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Grarr Dexx
The Congregation
No Handlebars.
#38 - 2014-01-19 03:59:11 UTC
let me guess, someone gave you some spreadsheets that were terrifically profitable at the time, they stopped being profitable, and now instead of actually learning where you can make a profit you decide to whine instead

If you can't see where the money is, you don't deserve it.
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