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Removing local, but making it still work? Strange idea i had
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TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#1 - 2013-12-31 15:54:26 UTC
Not sure if this has been recommended, but here we go.

If local chat were to be removed in some k-space why not add a new structure? Yes, this has been requested before, but my idea is different.

This structure would be showing people only on the GRID (sphere in CCP code terms), if they are NOT CLOAKED. Think of it like the Mobile Cyno Jammer, limit it so you cant have more then like 2 on a grid (must be 200km away from each other).

Different variations of it would be More EHP, but a lower cycle time (might be the word for it)?

IE, the cheap weak one would be cycled every 15 seconds or so, but the larger reinforced one would be 40-120 seconds. I feel these numbers give small ships like interceptors the ability to move quick and avoid detection.

These devices should also be jammable, the tougher one being harder to jam (80-90 sensor str) and the weaker one being the easiest (40 sensor str).
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2 - 2013-12-31 16:05:25 UTC
Try this:

I might have a solution to this.

Back in November, I suggested a two tier set of intel tools, which is appropriate since sov and PvE are different tiers of activity in null, with different needs.

Quote:
Have local operate in degrees of quality.
Give it two dimensions for this as well.

Dimension one, quantity of intel.
Dimension two, quality of intel.

Dimension one, would give ship numbers, then types, finally pilot names.
Dimension two, would give presence of neutrals, reduce delay to zero, then give presence of cloaked vessels.

Dimension one structures, which would be harder targets, would be POS add ons.
Dimension two structures, which would be easier targets meant for roams or smaller gangs, would be only in open space away from overview beacon items. These would need to be scanned down.

Examples:
Dimension 1: Level 3
Dimension 2: Level 3
Full list of pilot names, with faction tag visible.
Ship type listed next to name, highlighted if cloaking active.

Dimension 1: Level 3
Dimension 2: Level 0
Full list of pilot names, with ship type next to name.
NO faction standings listed, not defining cloak status.
ALL UPDATES DELAYED by 30 to 60 seconds, (balance adjusting by devs)

Dimension 1: Level 1
Dimension 2: Level 3
No pilot names.
4 Numbers listed.
1st number is how many friendly pilots (2nd is how many are cloaked)
3rd number is how many neutral or hostile (4th is how many are cloaked)

Correcting the previous, I edited the above to be accurate, here is the actual for the 0-3 combo

Dimension 1: Level 0
Dimension 2: Level 3
A single light indicator
Not lit if no other pilots present
Green light lit if all friendly
Yellow light lit if hostiles present
Red light lit if hostile cloaked present


I figure this eliminates any need for hunting cloaked ships specifically, although that can be sorted into if the devs see balanced opportunity.

If done carefully, it can actually be effective, and a good support for everyone having a great game play experience.

The two dimensional system has one side for sov level support, only truly threatened by massive blob warfare, which only offers mass level intel.
The other side is for pilot level, whether operating solo or in small groups. The intel is more detailed, as well as quicker to install or destroy, depending on your perspective.

Both benefit strongly when the other side is present.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
FightingMoose
Chroma Corp
#3 - 2013-12-31 16:07:28 UTC
How is this any better than D-scan?

Proud owner of an Ibis.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#4 - 2013-12-31 16:10:26 UTC
FightingMoose wrote:
How is this any better than D-scan?

I believe the base idea in the OP, as well as my own suggestion, were both automatic in the same manner current local operates.

D-Scan requires proactive pilot activity to return a result, trading effort for results.

These offer the same or better intel, but in exchange for vulnerability to hostile removal.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2013-12-31 16:58:11 UTC
My idea is just people in local, on grid with the device, and no the ship types. DSCAN needs work on its own, I wish i could set filters in it so its not my active overview or every.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6 - 2013-12-31 17:03:11 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
This structure would be showing people only on the GRID (sphere in CCP code terms), if they are NOT CLOAKED. Think of it like the Mobile Cyno Jammer, limit it so you cant have more then like 2 on a grid (must be 200km away from each other).
I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what the overview does?

And what would be the point in having 2 on a grid if their purpose was to show all people on the grid?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#7 - 2013-12-31 17:06:03 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
My idea is just people in local, on grid with the device, and no the ship types. DSCAN needs work on its own, I wish i could set filters in it so its not my active overview or every.

What you have described is a sensor buoy, to use a real world analogy.

It can only detect things close to it, and of course it is vulnerable to it's environment.

With only spotting pilot names, no ship types, and having gaps in effective coverage so it only detects at set intervals, I would ask what vulnerability it has as a balance?

For something of such limited range, being exclusive to on grid and being visible at the right moment as well, I would think this would be rather durable, since it provides limited intel.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#8 - 2013-12-31 17:09:10 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
This structure would be showing people only on the GRID (sphere in CCP code terms), if they are NOT CLOAKED. Think of it like the Mobile Cyno Jammer, limit it so you cant have more then like 2 on a grid (must be 200km away from each other).
I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what the overview does?

And what would be the point in having 2 on a grid if their purpose was to show all people on the grid?

I think we are missing many details, the OP forgot to include.

At my best guess, based on what the OP states, these devices only 'ping' at intervals.
Having two of them present might let them take turns pinging, so that a player receiving the intel stream would have twice the data frequency coming in, leaving fewer gaps for a ship to slip through unnoticed.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#9 - 2013-12-31 17:13:12 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
This structure would be showing people only on the GRID (sphere in CCP code terms), if they are NOT CLOAKED. Think of it like the Mobile Cyno Jammer, limit it so you cant have more then like 2 on a grid (must be 200km away from each other).
I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what the overview does?

And what would be the point in having 2 on a grid if their purpose was to show all people on the grid?

I think we are missing many details, the OP forgot to include.

At my best guess, based on what the OP states, these devices only 'ping' at intervals.
Having two of them present might let them take turns pinging, so that a player receiving the intel stream would have twice the data frequency coming in, leaving fewer gaps for a ship to slip through unnoticed.
I see. So essentially a half awake alt? I assume he means you'll be able to access them remotely or something, since if they were on grid with me, I'd see people that aren't cloaked on my overview :p

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#10 - 2013-12-31 17:17:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
This structure would be showing people only on the GRID (sphere in CCP code terms), if they are NOT CLOAKED. Think of it like the Mobile Cyno Jammer, limit it so you cant have more then like 2 on a grid (must be 200km away from each other).
I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what the overview does?

And what would be the point in having 2 on a grid if their purpose was to show all people on the grid?

I think we are missing many details, the OP forgot to include.

At my best guess, based on what the OP states, these devices only 'ping' at intervals.
Having two of them present might let them take turns pinging, so that a player receiving the intel stream would have twice the data frequency coming in, leaving fewer gaps for a ship to slip through unnoticed.
I see. So essentially a half awake alt? I assume he means you'll be able to access them remotely or something, since if they were on grid with me, I'd see people that aren't cloaked on my overview :p


Step 1> Make local like w-space
Step 2> Add these structures
Step 3> Structures "Ping" the grid at X intervals
Step 4> people who have been "pinged" get added to local chat like current

the limitation of number on grid is so that if people kill the weak cheap one, the strong one will be there but scanning at a lower interval. I wanted it that way so you cant spam the grid with them, but make them weak enough to be killed (unlike those evil SBUs/TCUs).
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2013-12-31 17:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMercenaryKing
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
This structure would be showing people only on the GRID (sphere in CCP code terms), if they are NOT CLOAKED. Think of it like the Mobile Cyno Jammer, limit it so you cant have more then like 2 on a grid (must be 200km away from each other).
I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what the overview does?

And what would be the point in having 2 on a grid if their purpose was to show all people on the grid?

I think we are missing many details, the OP forgot to include.

At my best guess, based on what the OP states, these devices only 'ping' at intervals.
Having two of them present might let them take turns pinging, so that a player receiving the intel stream would have twice the data frequency coming in, leaving fewer gaps for a ship to slip through unnoticed.
I see. So essentially a half awake alt? I assume he means you'll be able to access them remotely or something, since if they were on grid with me, I'd see people that aren't cloaked on my overview :p


sort of, yes. But this will also give a fake sense of security. If the "ping time" is more than the align time of the ships, then a person can get off grid without being detected.

I know though, that until cloaking is fixed, local wont change.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#12 - 2013-12-31 17:25:09 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
This structure would be showing people only on the GRID (sphere in CCP code terms), if they are NOT CLOAKED. Think of it like the Mobile Cyno Jammer, limit it so you cant have more then like 2 on a grid (must be 200km away from each other).
I'm confused. Isn't this exactly what the overview does?

And what would be the point in having 2 on a grid if their purpose was to show all people on the grid?

I think we are missing many details, the OP forgot to include.

At my best guess, based on what the OP states, these devices only 'ping' at intervals.
Having two of them present might let them take turns pinging, so that a player receiving the intel stream would have twice the data frequency coming in, leaving fewer gaps for a ship to slip through unnoticed.
I see. So essentially a half awake alt? I assume he means you'll be able to access them remotely or something, since if they were on grid with me, I'd see people that aren't cloaked on my overview :p


sort of, yes. But this will also give a fake sense of security. If the "ping time" is more than the align time of the ships, then a person can get off grid without being detected.

I know though, that until cloaking is fixed, local wont change.

Would the ping time be known to the ship trying to avoid notice, like a flash of light or something?
Or, would they have to guess, and hope their align did not overlap with the ping, never knowing unless they were told later.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Dori Tos
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-12-31 17:28:06 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
FightingMoose wrote:
How is this any better than D-scan?

I believe the base idea in the OP, as well as my own suggestion, were both automatic in the same manner current local operates.

D-Scan requires proactive pilot activity to return a result, trading effort for results.

These offer the same or better intel, but in exchange for vulnerability to hostile removal.


And what is bad about pro active efforts? If you're too bad to click your d-scan every 5 seconds when you know you're in a dangerous position then you deserve to die.People in WH do it all the time,it's not hard at all.

You want to remove the local but then introduce another system that is just as ********.If you want constant free intel just keep local,if not just remove it and use d-scan.

I'm delicious.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#14 - 2013-12-31 17:37:01 UTC
Dori Tos wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
FightingMoose wrote:
How is this any better than D-scan?

I believe the base idea in the OP, as well as my own suggestion, were both automatic in the same manner current local operates.

D-Scan requires proactive pilot activity to return a result, trading effort for results.

These offer the same or better intel, but in exchange for vulnerability to hostile removal.


And what is bad about pro active efforts? If you're too bad to click your d-scan every 5 seconds when you know you're in a dangerous position then you deserve to die.People in WH do it all the time,it's not hard at all.

You want to remove the local but then introduce another system that is just as ********.If you want constant free intel just keep local,if not just remove it and use d-scan.

There are many approaches to this solution, and no single solution can claim that it is the only right answer.

The OP has an object, which would take proactive effort in order to place and monitor, which pings at intervals like a camera taking pictures.
I don't understand how this detects the pilot name, but not the type or class of vessel. I would actually expect the reverse to happen.

If anything, I view this thread as a vote for the approach "automated but with vulnerability to attack".
I think the effort based d-scan, or perhaps a version that can be toggled active under the right conditions, is also a good direction to look in for this solution.

We may end up with a hybrid of both.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2013-12-31 17:43:30 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dori Tos wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
FightingMoose wrote:
How is this any better than D-scan?

I believe the base idea in the OP, as well as my own suggestion, were both automatic in the same manner current local operates.

D-Scan requires proactive pilot activity to return a result, trading effort for results.

These offer the same or better intel, but in exchange for vulnerability to hostile removal.


And what is bad about pro active efforts? If you're too bad to click your d-scan every 5 seconds when you know you're in a dangerous position then you deserve to die.People in WH do it all the time,it's not hard at all.

You want to remove the local but then introduce another system that is just as ********.If you want constant free intel just keep local,if not just remove it and use d-scan.

There are many approaches to this solution, and no single solution can claim that it is the only right answer.

The OP has an object, which would take proactive effort in order to place and monitor, which pings at intervals like a camera taking pictures.
I don't understand how this detects the pilot name, but not the type or class of vessel. I would actually expect the reverse to happen.

If anything, I view this thread as a vote for the approach "automated but with vulnerability to attack".
I think the effort based d-scan, or perhaps a version that can be toggled active under the right conditions, is also a good direction to look in for this solution.

We may end up with a hybrid of both.


This Structure would essentially hijack the target's communications and put them in the local chat. While a D-SCAN like thing is cool, who would it share with, and how would it be shared with everyone in the system? This would put everyone who is detected into the local chat list, much like in w-space when people speak.
Dori Tos
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-12-31 21:20:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dori Tos
Quote:
This Structure would essentially hijack the target's communications and put them in the local chat. While a D-SCAN like thing is cool, who would it share with, and how would it be shared with everyone in the system? This would put everyone who is detected into the local chat list, much like in w-space when people speak.



The problem is that it is automated.That's what I already don't like about local,it's free intel,it's a free automated alarm system.And your structure is the same,except with a slight delay and it the fact that it can't detect cloaky ships.But it is automatic.

Like if you would at least have to hit the d-scan to access the info from those structures that would already be a lot better,because you'd have to make an actual effort if you want to avoid being ganked.Or perhaps the structures could be used as kinds of passive boosters to our ships d-scan,making them increased range,giving us more info etc... but this would work both ways,both for the invader and the occupant.

I'm delicious.