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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3721 - 2013-12-29 06:54:15 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
prolly but I really wish the nerfs were evening the playing field instead of shoving missiles off the bottom of the chart.

We'll adapt and overcome.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3722 - 2013-12-29 07:23:52 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Roseline Penshar wrote:
can i ask 1 thing? hope there's someone who can answer it, the dps......is it count reload too?

It depends on who's quoting the numbers. DPS with reloads factored in is about 55-60% of stated maximum, though.

if it's the dps number at EFT is it count reload?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3723 - 2013-12-29 08:45:32 UTC
Roseline Penshar wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Roseline Penshar wrote:
can i ask 1 thing? hope there's someone who can answer it, the dps......is it count reload too?

It depends on who's quoting the numbers. DPS with reloads factored in is about 55-60% of stated maximum, though.

if it's the dps number at EFT is it count reload?

If it's higher than heavy assault missiles, then probably not.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3724 - 2013-12-29 11:32:19 UTC
Roseline Penshar wrote:

if it's the dps number at EFT is it count reload?


You have to set it in preferences, and I think most people have it turned off. Every dps number used by 40sec in the OP is with the bullshit no reloading dps number.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3725 - 2013-12-29 12:08:16 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Roseline Penshar wrote:

if it's the dps number at EFT is it count reload?


You have to set it in preferences, and I think most people have it turned off. Every dps number used by 40sec in the OP is with the bullshit no reloading dps number.
You only account for reload in pve or for POS bashing to be honest...

The amount of tears here is amazing though a you people should try pvp with turrets, just for comparison.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#3726 - 2013-12-29 13:01:04 UTC
Lets look at some cold hard facts for a second. RLML rebalance gave us
30% more damage
400% more reload time
23% of the ammo capacity.

What's wrong with this scenario?
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3727 - 2013-12-29 16:00:38 UTC
When will Rise and Fozzie come back with some comments about RLML usage now that we've had them on TQ for a while? And maybe some medium missile usage in general, and finally some general missile usage across all classes?

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3728 - 2013-12-29 17:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
an alternative way of buffing RLML's a bit rather than a straight clip increase and shorter reload time across the board..

meta 0 - base mod
1 - increase clip size to 30 and reload time to 35secs - reduce ROF by .5 secs
2 - reduce reload time to 20 secs - reduce clip size by 1
3 - increased ROF, reduce reload time to 35secs increased fitting need
4 - reduced fitting need .. reduce clip size by 2 reduce reload time to 30 secs
T2 - increased ROF increased fitting need .. can use T2 missiles .. reduce reload time to 35secs

p.s. we still need missile mods/ missile rebalance sharpish .... also add medium missiles please a nice inbetween from RLML and HAM's with better tracking missiles

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3729 - 2013-12-29 18:12:06 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You only account for reload in pve or for POS bashing to be honest...

The amount of tears here is amazing though a you people should try pvp with turrets, just for comparison.


Are you for real? Plenty of us use turrets as well. Turrets > missiles in PVP and everyone knows it. Perhaps you should actually try the missile system you've been talking about for hundreds of pages.

Also I think you have to factor reload times into the DPS of a weapon that spends as much time reloading as firing. Call me crazy.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3730 - 2013-12-29 18:20:58 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
an alternative way of buffing RLML's a bit rather than a straight clip increase and shorter reload time across the board..

meta 0 - base mod
1 - increase clip size to 30 and reload time to 35secs - reduce ROF by .5 secs
2 - reduce reload time to 20 secs - reduce clip size by 1
3 - increased ROF, reduce reload time to 35secs increased fitting need
4 - reduced fitting need .. reduce clip size by 2 reduce reload time to 30 secs
T2 - increased ROF increased fitting need .. can use T2 missiles .. reduce reload time to 35secs

p.s. we still need missile mods/ missile rebalance sharpish .... also add medium missiles please a nice inbetween from RLML and HAM's with better tracking missiles


How about they just return them to the way they were with a straight 10-20% ROF nerf? Then just rename them (since they wouldn't really be "rapid" anymore), and be done with it.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3731 - 2013-12-29 19:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
When will Rise and Fozzie come back with some comments about RLML usage now that we've had them on TQ for a while? And maybe some medium missile usage in general, and finally some general missile usage across all classes?

Lol Oh wait, you were serious…

I am disposable wrote:
Also I think you have to factor reload times into the DPS of a weapon that spends as much time reloading as firing. Call me crazy.

Especially if you plan on shooting for more than 50 seconds…

I am disposable wrote:
How about they just return them to the way they were with a straight 10-20% ROF nerf? Then just rename them (since they wouldn't really be "rapid" anymore), and be done with it.

A medium missile class would be nice (then we could buff heavies) - I just don't see it in the cards, unfortunately. Every time someone even remotely suggests bringing the number of missile-based weapons on par with lasers, hybrids or projectiles - the anti-missile lemmings seem to spring up everywhere. I have no problem with returning RLMLs and RHMLs to the original/first iteration. Instead of a rate of fire or damage nerf, I'd instead suggest just reducing ammunition capacity.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3732 - 2013-12-29 19:54:44 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

I am disposable wrote:
p.s. we still need missile mods/ missile rebalance sharpish .... also add medium missiles please a nice inbetween from RLML and HAM's with better tracking missiles. How about they just return them to the way they were with a straight 10-20% ROF nerf? Then just rename them (since they wouldn't really be "rapid" anymore), and be done with it.

A medium missile class would be nice (then we could buff heavies) - I just don't see it in the cards, unfortunately. Every time someone even remotely suggests bringing the number of missile-based weapons on par with lasers, hybrids or projectiles - the anti-missile lemmings seem to spring up everywhere. I have no problem with returning RLMLs and RHMLs to the original/first iteration. Instead of a rate of fire or damage nerf, I'd instead suggest just reducing ammunition capacity.


Err...I didn't post that.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3733 - 2013-12-29 20:44:27 UTC
Folks - we're clearly on our own here. CCP is either unwilling (hubris) or unable (ineptitude) to address these shortfalls. If missiles are going to be in our future we're going to have to come up with some abstract and creative solutions for them.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3734 - 2013-12-29 21:50:42 UTC
I briefly thought I might have discovered a very limited PvE scenario that RLMLs would excel in. Alas, I was once again proven wrong. It's not just that RLMLs are bizarre - it's that they're entirely useless on any Caldari hull that extends them a rate of fire bonus. Why? They're already fast to begin with, and combined with the limited ammunition capacity (16-18 rounds) this gives a false impression of increased DPS. The reality is that you're just depleting your ammunition faster. With any other missile system an increased rate of fire does translate into more DPS because they all typically hold twice the ammunition supply and there's only a 10-second reload. I actually think you might be further ahead using rockets at this point...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3735 - 2013-12-30 00:15:15 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Folks - we're clearly on our own here. CCP is either unwilling (hubris) or unable (ineptitude) to address these shortfalls. If missiles are going to be in our future we're going to have to come up with some abstract and creative solutions for them.


The solution is to stop using them. When something sucks it sucks. Period.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3736 - 2013-12-30 01:17:00 UTC
I am disposable wrote:
The solution is to stop using them. When something sucks it sucks. Period.

Screw that. I've got a sizeable chunk of skill training into them, and I happen to like Caldari hulls. Plus you can't beat the "whoosh" sound for FX. And I refuse to switch over to drones or turrets just to become another lemming...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#3737 - 2013-12-30 01:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
I am disposable wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You only account for reload in pve or for POS bashing to be honest...

The amount of tears here is amazing though a you people should try pvp with turrets, just for comparison.


Are you for real? Plenty of us use turrets as well. Turrets > missiles in PVP and everyone knows it. Perhaps you should actually try the missile system you've been talking about for hundreds of pages.

Also I think you have to factor reload times into the DPS of a weapon that spends as much time reloading as firing. Call me crazy.


Well, 2013 was finally missiles = turrets with the exception of heavies. For me, it's been the first year of heavily utilizing missile ships (HAM, rapid lights, lights, rarely torps) and I was flabbergasted by the amount of dps I apply to targets I've been told to keep my hopes down. Always hated Tengus, flying them pretty much nonstop now cause HAMs are so damn amazingly wonderful.

Rapids used to be my prime choice before that (what a surprise...), and so was at last a 100mn rapid-gu for a mere couple weeks before the rapid-change, with the change though rapids have become a thing for gang-anti-frig-work. And gawd they're beasty at that job.
When comparing missile-platforms to other bread-and-butter-ships (sleipnir, daredevil Pirate, deimos, Nomen) I'm using frequently, I'd say that missiles are a damn fine choice for pvp - and rapids now truely excel at their niche.

Turrets > Missiles is an outdated statement, and you did well to hide your identity behind a forum alt Blink

Edit: I agree though that not the clipsize, but the reloadtime needs tweaking. The tendency is great, but the exact numbers aren't that amazing.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3738 - 2013-12-30 02:06:31 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Rapids used to be my prime choice before that (what a surprise...), and so was at last a 100mn rapid-gu for a mere couple weeks before the rapid-change, with the change though rapids have become a thing for gang-anti-frig-work. And gawd they're beasty at that job.

The problem is that one rarely encounters just one frigate, and if you find yourself facing off against a comparable cruiser the rapid lights aren't going to cut it. Unless you've had success to the contrary, in which case I'd love to hear more details.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3739 - 2013-12-30 03:09:59 UTC
What does it take for CCP to pay some attention to their screw-ups?
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3740 - 2013-12-30 03:47:17 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I am disposable wrote:
The solution is to stop using them. When something sucks it sucks. Period.

Screw that. I've got a sizeable chunk of skill training into them, and I happen to like Caldari hulls. Plus you can't beat the "whoosh" sound for FX. And I refuse to switch over to drones or turrets just to become another lemming...


I was referring specifically to RLMLs, not all missile systems.