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Discussion: Fortress v. Nomad

Author
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#1 - 2013-12-27 23:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Proclus Diadochu
As wormholers, many of our ilk had the opportunity to be trailblazers in a game that was already six years old. We found ways to take an area of gameplay and form it beyond the intended purpose. I would argue that although most groups in wormholes may share some similarities, we each have defined our own way of doing some activities, whether corporate management, wormhole mapping, POS management, fleet compositions, training, recruitment, or whatever, we all have our own little touch to how we live on the fringes of New Eden.

That being said, in my time since creating Obstergo, I've seen and helped to usher in policies that have helped to keep our little pack of trolls alive for the past couple years. Some of what I've seen and worked into our group, along with the help, support, and leadership of the glorious Obstergo directorate, is what I want to talk about in this thread, the styles "fortress" and "nomad".

While with Tragedy, TEMNAVA, and Exhale/Polarized, we practiced a lifestyle known to some as "fortress" style of living. When a group decides on making their wormhole a fortress, a number of variables and risks are taken into account. From our experience, fortress wormholes are ideal for larger groups with wide timezone coverage with ample support to defend a home system in times of invasion or aggression.

The factors we would assess before committing to building a fortress with your friends would be:

  • Is your group large enough to build a fortress? Consider the risks associated with committing faction towers, an excess of ships and assets, as well as the effect on your membership's personal security and assets.

  • Does your group have global timezone coverage? Consider the windows of opportunity that an opponent could take against your group during “soft timezones”. How strong would you consider a fortress with no guards?

  • Do you have a strong central leadership? This question applies to every group, however I make a point to address this for both fortress and nomad. Consider role management of your corporation, POS sharing, asset management with our broken POS system, and logistics of maintaining a fortress.

  • What is the average SP of your membership and how well can you field correct Dreads, Carriers, T3's, Logistics, and POS Gunners? Consider the amount of support your group will need to maintain a strong, sustainable home system. Do you have redundancy in place to protect your fortress system? Do you have enough appropriately skilled pilots to ensure that your force multipliers can be fielded at any timezone for defense of your home?

  • Is your membership consistent and active enough to support a fortress? How useful is any member to overall protection if they aren’t available to defend, or can’t be arsed to log on because OMG DayZ Standalone is out!!?! Remember, you are investing a ton into the system, make sure you can defend it.

Now, if this sounds like you, you may ask “what is a fortress”? In a sentence, a fortress is a wormhole system that the inhabitants maximize defenses to ensure the greatest possibility for security of corporate/alliance assets allowing membership the leisure of maintaining a high limit of assets in their home. Why? Some residents of the wormhole community like the concept of fortress style living to be able “unpack” and have options while living in “their” home, whether for immersion, ratpackness, personal reasons, whatever… Obstergo and friends did it for a time because frankly that is how many of our membership at the time wanted to live, and also because the “nomad” option is slightly more demanding, as you’ll see. So what could you expect to see in a fortress home system:

  • Well defended Faction POS’s.
  • POS’s on every moon in the system.
  • Usually only large groups with decent EU/US coverage. (This is not always the case)
  • Quick response time to visiting entities from fresh K162’s.
  • Lots of SMA/CHA/CSMA’s in the POS’s.
  • Probably a TCU, cause :smug:

There is most definitely more to the fortress, as I’m sure I missed some, however I’ll leave the rest on fortresses to the thread discussion.

While with Bitten and our fledgling existence with RCC, we’ve practiced a lifestyle known to some as "nomad" style of living. When a group decides on residing in their wormhole nomadically, a number of variables are taken into account, however if practiced correctly, many risks inherent to wormholes is reduced greatly. From our experience, nomad wormholing is ideal for smaller groups with less timezone coverage with reduced support to defend a home system in times of invasion or aggression.

The factors we would assess before committing to living nomadically would be:

  • Is your group capable of living nomadically? Consider whether your membership can live out of a backpack? That is essentially what you’ll be doing as a nomad. Nomads are the carneys of the wormhole community and should be able to move near-fluidly.

  • Does your average member have alternate accounts and are they willing to train for particular ships/fittings? When living nomadically, I use three characters consistently. I have Proc, my main PVP character, who can fly near everything well enough, Jon who is my industrial alt, who POS guns and flies an Orca (my backpack), and Chalmecatecuctlz “Chiclets” who is my Moros pilot. With that setup, I can field a Cap at any time immediately, I don’t need an SMA/CHA, and I can be moved out personally in a short time. That mobility is the key to living as a nomad. NOTE: Some people use Carriers for their backpacks, some use Orcas, it’s a personal preference.

  • Is your membership supportive of a “no roots” ideology? It’s very important that your group is on the same page with living actively, freely, and with limited combat options.

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

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Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#2 - 2013-12-27 23:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Proclus Diadochu

  • Does your overall membership have the SP to support the demanding requirements of living as a nomad? When living out of a backpack, nomads have to be able to fly what they have with them very well, they have to be able to support a backpack, and they have to be versatile to still be able to field the correct fleet compositions to fight effectively against no nomads. If your members cannot live mobile, then your nomad policies won’t work.

Now, if this sounds like you, you may ask “what is nomad”? In a sentence, nomads are a group of wormholers that capitalize on mobility to ensure the greatest possibility for asset protection, fluid movement, and minimal defense requirements. Why? When living nomad, you don’t have to worry about costly losses due to invasion, and is ideal for smaller, active groups.

So when I say policies, groups who live nomadically, including us, have “Nomad Conditions”. These conditions, or levels, tell our membership the threat level of a potential hostile act against us, and how mobile they need to become to prepare. From the lowest level, where they can log wherever they chose and even utilize the SMA’s within their POS’s, to the highest conditions where they are completely packed, with backpacks logged in safes, and PVP pilots logging for calls for combat. In the highest levels of Nomad, leadership will also consider collapsing POS’s to reduce POS losses (Essentially packing up your tents).

The reason RCC, Obstergo in particular, have become practitioners of this lifestyle is for ease of mobility to aggress others’ homes. This is quite similar to Disavowed’s and W-Space’s decisions recently prior to the Sadlands Invasion, except we just have policies if we are counter invaded. So what could you expect to see in a nomad home system:

  • Minimal number of POS’s. (May resemble an EXPO setup)
  • Small number of SMA/CHA’s.
  • Unoccupied moons.
  • Usually only small or merc groups with limited TZ coverage. (This is not always the case)
  • Probably a TCU, cause :smug:

There is most definitely more to the nomad lifestyle, as I’m sure I missed some, however I’ll leave the rest on nomads to the thread discussion. There is also room to discuss other residential options. Enjoy the wall of text Big smile

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

The Diogenes Club | Join W-Space | Down The Pipe

Winthorp
#3 - 2013-12-27 23:15:44 UTC
Did Bert and QT put you up to this?
Rengas
AQUILA INC
#4 - 2013-12-27 23:25:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rengas
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
As wormholers, many of our ilk had the opportunity to be trailblazers in a game that was already six years old. We found ways to take an area of gameplay and form it beyond the intended purpose. I would argue that although most groups in wormholes may share some similarities, we each have defined our own way of doing some activities, whether corporate management, wormhole mapping, POS management, fleet compositions, training, recruitment, or whatever, we all have our own little touch to how we live on the fringes of New Eden.

That being said, in my time since creating Obstergo, I've seen and helped to usher in policies that have helped to keep our little pack of trolls alive for the past couple years. Some of what I've seen and worked into our group, along with the help, support, and leadership of the glorious Obstergo directorate, is what I want to talk about in this thread, the styles "fortress" and "nomad".

While with Tragedy, TEMNAVA, and Exhale/Polarized, we practiced a lifestyle known to some as "fortress" style of living. When a group decides on making their wormhole a fortress, a number of variables and risks are taken into account. From our experience, fortress wormholes are ideal for larger groups with wide timezone coverage with ample support to defend a home system in times of invasion or aggression.

The factors we would assess before committing to building a fortress with our friends would be:

  • Is your group large enough to build a fortress? Consider the risks associated with committing faction towers, an excess of ships and assets, as well as the effect on your membership's personal security and assets.

  • Does your group have global timezone coverage? Consider the windows of opportunity that an opponent could take against your group during “soft timezones”. How strong would you consider a fortress with no guards?

  • Do you have a strong central leadership? This question applies to every group, however I make a point to address this for both fortress and nomad. Consider role management of your corporation, POS sharing, asset management with our broken POS system, and logistics of maintaining a fortress.

  • What is the average SP of your membership and how well can you field correct Dreads, Carriers, T3's, Logistics, and POS Gunners? Consider the amount of support your group will need to maintain a strong, sustainable home system. Do you have redundancy in place to protect your fortress system? Do you have enough appropriately skilled pilots to ensure that your force multipliers can be fielded at any timezone for defense of your home?

  • Is your membership consistent and active enough to support a fortress? How useful is any member to overall protection if they aren’t available to defend, or can’t be arsed to log on because OMG DayZ Standalone is out!!?! Remember, you are investing a ton into the system, make sure you can defend it.

Now, if this sounds like you, you may ask “what is a fortress”? In a sentence, a fortress is a wormhole system that the inhabitants maximize defenses to ensure the greatest possibility for security of corporate/alliance assets allowing membership the leisure of maintaining a high limit of assets in their home. Why? Some residents of the wormhole community like the concept of fortress style living to be able “unpack” and have options while living in “their” home, whether for immersion, ratpackness, personal reasons, whatever… Obstergo and friends did it for a time because frankly that is how many of our membership at the time wanted to live, and also because the “nomad” option is slightly more demanding, as you’ll see. So what could you expect to see in a fortress home system:

  • Well defended Faction POS’s.
  • POS’s on every moon in the system.
  • Usually only large groups with decent EU/US coverage. (This is not always the case)
  • Quick response time to visiting entities from fresh K162’s.
  • Lots of SMA/CHA/CSMA’s in the POS’s.
  • Probably a TCU, cause :smug:

There is most definitely more to the fortress, as I’m sure I missed some, however I’ll leave the rest on fortresses to the thread discussion.

While with Bitten and our fledgling existence with RCC, we’ve practiced a lifestyle known to some as "nomad" style of living. When a group decides on residing in their wormhole nomadically, a number of variables are taken into account, however if practiced correctly, many risks inherent to wormholes is reduced greatly. From our experience, nomad wormholing is ideal for smaller groups with less timezone coverage with reduced support to defend a home system in times of invasion or aggression.
The factors we would assess before committing to living nomadically would be:

  • Is your group capable of living nomadically? Consider whether your membership can live out of a backpack? That is essentially what you’ll be doing as a nomad. Nomads are the carneys of the wormhole community and should be able to move near-fluidly.
  • Does your average member have alternate accounts and are they willing to train for particular ships/fittings? When living nomadically, I use three characters consistently. I have Proc, my main PVP character, who can fly near everything well enough, Jon who is my industrial alt, who POS guns and flies an Orca (my backpack), and Chalmecatecuctlz “Chiclets” who is my Moros pilot. With that setup, I can field a Cap at any time immediately, I don’t need an SMA/CHA, and I can be moved out personally in a short time. That mobility is the key to living as a nomad. NOTE: Some people use Carriers for their backpacks, some use Orcas, it’s a personal preference.

  • Is your membership supportive of a “no roots” ideology? It’s very important that your group is on the same page with living actively, freely, and with limited combat options.

Yes
Red Garsk
#5 - 2013-12-27 23:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Garsk
I would argue that using a POS while remaining fairly mobile does not classify as nomadic. I have been traveling through wormholes for over a year without a POS, jumping from system to system, taking advantage of PvP, or rather... ganks and the occasional PvE content. I only jump into Empire to restock my Drones and Ammo and sometimes rat in Null and Lowsec.

I can change ships duo to the small size of a T3, an Orca can hold 5 total, so with a good setup you can switch ships and carry backups incase you run into a gank you cant handle. I can close Wormholes behind me, so I can collapse Wormholes that have too much activity for me to handle.

I would consider myself a Scavenger that lives a nomadic lifestyle, so I would argue the term nomad used for people who are flexable but still use A POS... that for me, is not being nomadic but just very flexable.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#6 - 2013-12-27 23:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Proclus Diadochu
Red Garsk wrote:
I would argue that using a POS while remaining fairly mobile does not classify as nomadic. I have been traveling through wormholes for over a year without a POS, jumping from system to system, taking advantage of PvP, or rather... ganks and the occasional PvE content. I only jump into Empire to restock my Drones and Ammo and sometimes rat in Null and Lowsec.

I can change ships duo to the small size of a T3, an Orca can hold 5 total, so with a good setup you can switch ships and carry backups incase you run into a gank you cant handle. I can close Wormholes behind me, so I can collapse Wormholes that have too much activity for me to handle.

I would consider myself a Scavenger that lives a nomadic lifestyle, so I would argue the term nomad used for people who are flexable but still use A POS... that for me, is not being nomadic but just very flexable.


Solid point. I'd counter that even nomads setup camp. We use the POS's in a tent-like fashion. What you do, I feel, would not be very feasible for groups, unless your playtimes are near exact, so your movements could be together.

The way I am using the term "nomad" is in a group setting versus a much more static "fortress" style. We do live quite flexible, and have the ability to completely move system to system within about a 24 hour period. I'd say that is pretty flexible for an alliance. Big smile

But, yea, the term 'flexible' doesn't work aswell with our policy naming conventions. Have to maintain our cool points. Cool

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

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Red Garsk
#7 - 2013-12-28 00:03:35 UTC
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
Solid point. I'd counter that even nomads setup camp. We use the POS's in a tent-like fashion. What you do, I feel, would not be very feasible for groups, unless your playtimes are near exact, so your movements could be together.

The way I am using the term "nomad" is in a group setting versus a much more static "fortress" style. We do live quite flexible, and have the ability to completely move system to system within about a 24 hour period. I'd say that is pretty flexible for an alliance. Big smile

But, yea, the term 'flexible' doesn't work aswell with our policy naming conventions. Have to maintain our cool points. Cool


For a while I would team up with a friend and we would call each other to get online so we would both be in the same hole and make the same moves. So yeah, it's a solo lifestyle because when you jump holes and your team mate isn't online, you are seperated again.

I adobted this lifestyle because I was bored. The guys I was playing with all had to take breaks from the game because of real life responsibilities and I didnt want to be all alone with a POS, maintaining everything by myself, so I packed up and took what I needed and now I move from place to place.

It's not for everyone because there are days where nothing happens, I can go for weeks without so much as a scout coming through or PvE content won't spawn.

I do enjoy it a lot because when you do run into things and other people, you come across the craziest things.
Henry Cummings
Daktaklakpak.
Mince n Tatties
#8 - 2013-12-28 05:32:54 UTC
Good post Proc, pretty much cleared up any confusion between the two styles for anyone unfamiliar with them. I'm not really sure what else there is to cover.

However, I'm mostly interested in what others do, such as if there are other ways to set up a home system. and why people choose whatever style they employ. RCC is pretty dead-set on nomad, but I'm curious to hear what other alternatives are there.
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#9 - 2013-12-28 14:39:03 UTC
you forgot the SYJ/WSPACE/DE-NY 'base out of lowsec but still call yourselves wormholers' model.

Official Shit Talking Captain, Bastard of Hard Knocks Inc.

Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-12-28 14:50:01 UTC
had to put this here......."nomad pls"
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#11 - 2013-12-28 15:41:10 UTC
Red Garsk wrote:

For a while I would team up with a friend and we would call each other to get online so we would both be in the same hole and make the same moves. So yeah, it's a solo lifestyle because when you jump holes and your team mate isn't online, you are seperated again.

I adobted this lifestyle because I was bored. The guys I was playing with all had to take breaks from the game because of real life responsibilities and I didnt want to be all alone with a POS, maintaining everything by myself, so I packed up and took what I needed and now I move from place to place.

It's not for everyone because there are days where nothing happens, I can go for weeks without so much as a scout coming through or PvE content won't spawn.

I do enjoy it a lot because when you do run into things and other people, you come across the craziest things.


I have to keep reminding myself people like this exist in the game - I've nearly made some flawed judgements in the past due to pigeon holing WH residents as either residents of a system or day trippers from k-space - its a bit of a curve ball in those rare encounters with someone who is truly nomadic and doesn't operate in the way you expect.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#12 - 2013-12-28 19:18:31 UTC
Nomadic means living out of a tent (MD) or out of an orca/carrier. Just cause your assets are so limited they fit into one sma doesn't make you a nomad. It just means you are poor or don't want to have those excess assets needed to truely give gfs.

Well, i used to run wormhole-pew solo both out of a dickstar and out of an orca, anchoring a tower is nothing a nomad would do, mostly cause superfluous.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#13 - 2013-12-28 19:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Proclus Diadochu
Mobile Depots... you mean those things that started existing this month?

If the operational style of your group means you move around, whether invasions or experiencing different types of wormholes, then it indicates you are mobile and need to pack light. The term "nomad" seems to get you guys stuck on the definition of what you think a nomad should be in wormholes. This is just the term for a more mobile lifestyle for groups. If you wish to attempt to actualize your opinion, that's your prerogative, but I'll continue to peddle my concepts.

tl;Dr - nomad is a term for the group level management system we use. I see a simple POS as a tent, and I build my sandcastles my way, and shiptoast about it. XOXO

Edit: Based on what you guys do/did, living directly out of a backpack, I'd probably call that "drifting". The drifters of Eve :)

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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#14 - 2013-12-28 22:40:27 UTC
I'm but advocating that, if you decide to put down a pos, might aswell get some ships for pvp in there. The nomadic lifestyle though simply doesn't work that way, resulting in being so weak you call your own alliance being terrible.

I honestly only fought you guys once, and it was a poor fight afterall with you telling us you have no ships in your hole. So obviously the nomadic lifestyle seems to be a poor one.

'you' adressing whoever of rcc it was, but forming a multihole alliance is failing wormholes anyways. (personal opinion)


Tl;dr: if your form of organization drastically reduces your pvp-options, it's bad. Thus, the nomadic lifestyle as you describe it is actually just pussying out of a confrontation before it started, by initially limiting your options to have less red on your kb. Yay.
Telling people you cannot fight them due to lack of assets is bad.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#15 - 2013-12-28 23:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Proclus Diadochu
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I honestly only fought you guys once, and it was a poor fight afterall with you telling us you have no ships in your hole. So obviously the nomadic lifestyle seems to be a poor one.


The guys you "fought" were our Daktak bros, and they haven't transitioned to our nomad style yet... sooo?

Edit: But, you're right, Mr. Joe Random Wormholer Guy. We're bad. Everyone knows how terrible we are... Roll

tl;dr - Get on our level.

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E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-12-28 23:36:40 UTC
Red Garsk wrote:
I would argue that using a POS while remaining fairly mobile does not classify as nomadic. I have been traveling through wormholes for over a year without a POS, jumping from system to system, taking advantage of PvP, or rather... ganks and the occasional PvE content. I only jump into Empire to restock my Drones and Ammo and sometimes rat in Null and Lowsec.

this difference is you do it solo vs being in a 200 man corp. Big difference.
You also spend time HS mining, which isnt nomadic OR being in WHs.

As for fortress vs nomadic; play how you want to play *shrug*.
Honestly, the old fortress life style doesnt exist any more due to how 'blue' WH space has become since anyone can get evicted at a moments notice these days since WHers are now, sadly, more than willing to blue up to blob the fk out of each other, rather than actually doing anything for themselves like they used to.
'No blues' used to be the way of life in WH space but it really isnt anymore.
The key is to not get emotionally attached to your system and be able to move on if you need to.

Personally, I keep a few toons in our home system and move the rest around various systems as needed.

There is no Bob.

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Red Garsk
#17 - 2013-12-29 01:44:35 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
You also spend time HS mining, which isnt nomadic OR being in WHs.


I spend 2 weeks in highsec duo to real life responsibilities, and yes, I spend time mining because I was recording a Podcast... and I don't like to do heavy things when I do that... but I still have to be online during the recording.

It's getting old dude, go awox something with a 70 man fleet... make sure it can't fight back, otherwise you might not have enough firepower.
Thor66777
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#18 - 2013-12-29 01:54:06 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
.
Telling people you cannot fight them due to lack of assets is bad.


Never has been a issue for us. This obviously takes a group effort to do it and a certain mindset on how you want to play the game. Its just been our experience and choices that have led us to go the "nomadic" life style. It works for us, may not work for everyone.
Calmatt
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-12-29 02:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Calmatt
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I'm but advocating that, if you decide to put down a pos, might aswell get some ships for pvp in there. The nomadic lifestyle though simply doesn't work that way, resulting in being so weak you call your own alliance being terrible.

I honestly only fought you guys once, and it was a poor fight afterall with you telling us you have no ships in your hole. So obviously the nomadic lifestyle seems to be a poor one.

'you' adressing whoever of rcc it was, but forming a multihole alliance is failing wormholes anyways. (personal opinion)


Tl;dr: if your form of organization drastically reduces your pvp-options, it's bad. Thus, the nomadic lifestyle as you describe it is actually just pussying out of a confrontation before it started, by initially limiting your options to have less red on your kb. Yay.
Telling people you cannot fight them due to lack of assets is bad.



WTF are you talking about scrub? I NOMAD like errday, and you can honestly fit everything you need in an orca, or if you're a BOSS like me an archon.

What we see here is some jagoff putting on airs. Go back to incursion space where maybe you'll be as relevant as us. Do yourself a favor and just don't reply, you'll only make your corp look more foolish than some of your members already have.
Red Garsk
#20 - 2013-12-29 02:39:08 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I'm but advocating that, if you decide to put down a pos, might aswell get some ships for pvp in there. The nomadic lifestyle though simply doesn't work that way, resulting in being so weak you call your own alliance being terrible.

I honestly only fought you guys once, and it was a poor fight afterall with you telling us you have no ships in your hole. So obviously the nomadic lifestyle seems to be a poor one.

'you' adressing whoever of rcc it was, but forming a multihole alliance is failing wormholes anyways. (personal opinion)


Tl;dr: if your form of organization drastically reduces your pvp-options, it's bad. Thus, the nomadic lifestyle as you describe it is actually just pussying out of a confrontation before it started, by initially limiting your options to have less red on your kb. Yay.
Telling people you cannot fight them due to lack of assets is bad.


I didnt know there were any rules to the game we play. If we don't want to fight, we don't fight and if you think that is poor then that is something you'll have to deal with.

If I encounter targets I can't handle, I will lay low.

I have been in wormholes since they have come out, there are no rules, there is no body telling anyone how to play or just do the PvP thing, it's not gonna happen and I would argue with anyone claiming otherwise.

Certain Wormhole corporations or alliances have grown too much c*ck and think they can dictate how wormholes are suposed to be.

If you have been denied a fight, too bad bro...
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