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Warning : Mobile Tractor Unit

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2013-12-27 03:14:19 UTC
This is hilarious, did no one read or listen to how thd new mobile structures worked?
Lots of shiney ships will burn!

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#182 - 2013-12-27 09:49:31 UTC
I did and I missed the part where it mentioned that drones would attack automagically Blink in the new era of mobile deployables like this, it's not wholly intuitive.

Feels outside the intention of the rules to me (though not the spirit of the game itself), an oversight if you will.

I wonder what happens if they're assigned to guard a person with one out.

Some clarity on if this is working as intended would be good (for both sides of the argument).
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2013-12-27 14:42:05 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I did and I missed the part where it mentioned that drones would attack automagically Blink in the new era of mobile deployables like this, it's not wholly intuitive.

Feels outside the intention of the rules to me (though not the spirit of the game itself), an oversight if you will.

If your drones are out, an set to aggressive they will attack any hostile target in the area.
If you have a mobile structure out, it can be attacked with no concord intervention giving the attacker a suspect flag.
A player with a suspect flag can be attacked by anyone without concord intervention.
What part did you miss?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#184 - 2013-12-27 15:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
That's the thing - they only work like this on mobile structures, which are new.

Remember they do NOT automagically go for flashy reds (or yellows). They have to be directed. The automated defence of the structure is the key difference here - it's not your ship, thus is unexpected behaviour.

YOU are not being attacked, a STRUCTURE is - there is a pretty big difference in drone behaviour expectation, imho.


Edit for clarity: By "work like this" I mean can drag people into LE by baiting drones to automatically attack.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2013-12-27 15:22:19 UTC
The structures belong to you, just like jet cans and wrecks.
If I shoot your wreck I will get concorded, if I steal from your wreck I get a suspect flag. If you have drones out when I steal from your wreck they will attack me as a new hostile target; if they are set to aggressive.

There is nothing new going on here, other than being able to shoot a structure with concord responding.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#186 - 2013-12-27 15:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Drones do no such thing if you steal from a player, that's the point. That there's never been a way to pull drones into shooting you like this before, i.e. an action that picks up a suspect, rather than criminal flag.

A change of this nature would usually this would be noted at the time in the dev blogs rather than simply implied, which is what makes me think it's iffy/potentially not working as intended.
gfldex
#187 - 2013-12-28 10:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: gfldex
I got my petition reply today and as promised I provide the GMs answer.

This is in my own words because of legal obligation. No really I did rephrase it!

Quote:
This is currently classified as a bug, and we hope to have it fixed in the
near future. For the moment, we recommend players set their drones to
passive.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#188 - 2013-12-29 20:49:54 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The structures belong to you, just like jet cans and wrecks.
If I shoot your wreck I will get concorded, if I steal from your wreck I get a suspect flag. If you have drones out when I steal from your wreck they will attack me as a new hostile target; if they are set to aggressive.

There is nothing new going on here, other than being able to shoot a structure with(out) concord responding.

Ummm, No. Not for quite some time (and by that i mean YEARS) has this worked. It was fixed for a reason. As this will be.

I'll chime in on this with some logic...*gasp!!!*

Okay, if i'm not mistaken, (which i very well could be) back in the day i believe it was possible to get a person's drones to auto-aggress from looting one of their wrecks. (and some ppl apparently believe it is STILL possible) And was that eventually changed to no-auto-aggression? Yes. Because even if the player is active and at the keyboard, it can happen quick enough for the player to not stop the drones.

Also, as the player is used to knowing that drones are not programmed to attack suspects, they will have no reason to worry...until this bug is employed and allakazam! they are now in a LE with a very pvp setup ship who usually has 'neutral' logi waiting to keep him alive, with their pve ship.

If you still want to cry about how this isn't an exploit b/c it is happening (giving you the ability to 'fight' and kill shiney ships) then maybe you should just keep doing this, and enjoy the ban when CCP brings the hammer.
Cory Rose
The Explorer's Guide to the Galaxy
#189 - 2014-01-04 13:22:05 UTC
Seeing everyone is complaining and whining about this, lets review.

If you engage in PVP activity a warning pops up letting you know that everyone and their mom with the same ticker can now attack you.

If your drones do this without your consent, there is no warning, they just fire ( I laughed so hard I fell out of my chair when my guards did it even when I popped I laughed and had a great conversation with the aggressor afterwards.

I will say that I got everything back and had to refund my insurance payment as SOP, so this very well might be an exploit and then again it might not but the fact a DEV moved this post into issues in my experience means its something they are seriously looking at.

And a quick pro tip, to avoid this whole thing set your drones to passive and command them to fire when someone shoots your MTU go pick it up or watch it pop, your choice.

My reasoning against:
again I am not for or against but the last aggressive drone loophole got closed by CCP, and with the same suspect mechanic your drones should autopop Ninja looters but do not, suspect aggression is suspect aggression and all forms should be treated equally and in this case they are not, both the wrecks and MTU's are "owned" by a player and have the same ownership rights so thus should be treated as such.

My reasoning for:
Setting yourself to green means you will not take any action that will make "you" a suspect or criminal, the fact that the aggressor is attacking you and your drones are now choosing to see that as the next high priority target is nominal they will attack and you do not have to change your security setting because this will not cause "you" to be a suspect or criminal they are doing what they do when anything attacks you, they fire.

In this matter because of my two opinions on this matter I would have to lean towards the against, unless all suspect aggression against all owned property is treated the same the MTU should not be different than your personal wreck and drones and mechanics should mirror in both situations.

Again all of the speculation is listed towards my refund of my ship, if I had a message of this is a mechanic that is working as intended like I did when I noticed something with the downtime window and got the this is working as intended message.

Just some food for thought, as you were. :P
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2014-01-04 22:26:52 UTC
gfldex wrote:
I got my petition reply today and as promised I provide the GMs answer.

This is in my own words because of legal obligation. No really I did rephrase it!

Quote:
This is currently classified as a bug, and we hope to have it fixed in the
near future. For the moment, we recommend players set their drones to
passive.

Bullshit.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dark Nanny
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2014-01-05 02:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Nanny
------
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#192 - 2014-01-05 13:02:46 UTC
FOFs do NOT shoot suspects, not without something else in play. Much like drones.


@James: which bit is bullshit? I don't doubt the reimburse - bug line...maybe.
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#193 - 2014-01-05 20:58:39 UTC
^he says it aint true b/c thats not what his icon Mittani believes. Simple as that. Meanwhile lots of ppl are getting reimbursed, and i'm still waiting for an answer to whether or not i'll get a ban for engaging in this activity. (since i have previously been warned b/c i did something the whole community believed was legit and 'as intended' last year)

It looks like great fun, but not enough fun to justify a ban. I just want to know.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#194 - 2014-01-05 22:12:56 UTC
Dark Nanny wrote:
Being distracted for 5 seconds in a hi-sec L4 mission should not equate to my death at the hands of another capsuleer.

The solution is to allow us to enable a setting - much like the safety - that does not allow us to aggress suspects. That means missiles will find another target or fire into empty space. That means drones will find another target or stay idle. That means manually enabling my guns will give a message, "please remove your suspect engagement restrictions".

That is completely logical, sane and balanced. Arguing against that is basically saying, "I can't kill PVPers so give me some easy people to shoot at".

I don't say this as a risk averse carebear; this character I'm posting on is purely setup for ganking haulers for instance. I enjoy ganking and hi-sec. I don't think hi-sec aggro against PVE players is always a bad thing. It just has to be balanced and make sense. The current mechanics DO NOT!


You paint a picture like anyone who is suspect can warp in and kill any mission runner they please. That is not the case, not even remotely close.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#195 - 2014-01-06 16:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Dark Nanny wrote:
Damasi DeFanel wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Damasi DeFanel wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
TBH there is no huge problem with an excess of AFK mission running now drones are aggro-ed.

The supposed opposition to AFK missioning and mining is simply a rationalization that allows people to grief weak targets without feeling guilty.

In reality the main reason to leave mission drones on aggressive is for missions that disrupt targeting.

You will almost certainly have the same problem if you deploy FoF missiles when targeting is disrupted.

In both cases being at the keyboard will not avoid your drones targeting the wrong target.

The only solution would seem to be pull in the MTU when targeting is disrupted and you need to go aggressive.

I am not sure how that is "working as intended" but there are bigger oddities with drones - apparently remote repping drones is a bannable offense at GM discretion so I think this is mild in comparison and simply a case of "following the referees call" and pull your MTU in when you need to go aggressive.







Only, generally.... if you are active at your keyboard you will see the person attacking your MTU and would either recall your drones so that they dont get destroyed too, or to high tail it out, or to stop them aggro-ing and making you a target... cause well....

Drones are called that for a reason THEY DONT THINK...

they just Do.




Pretty sure FoF missiles will behave in exactly the same fashion.



Friend or Foe ("F.O.F") missiles are available in standard-, heavy-, and cruise-launcher sizes. They can be fired without a locked target and will strike the nearest hostile ships or object.

Working as intended then.... as suspect for damaging your own gear = hostile.... am i right?

Again. If a Hi Sec mission runner is NOT afk, and NOT a bot.... Hi Sec runner should have the brains NOT to fire FoF if their stuffs getting shot at....

if they see a yellow blip, and STILL fire off the missiles.... then its their own damned fault and they shouldnt come crying here about it.

Cause and Effect, my friend.

Stupidity, Laziness or Carelessness being the cause....

rage, tears, and a kill mail being the result.

People should take responsibility for their actions and stop blaming "Broken" game mechanics

Being distracted for 5 seconds in a hi-sec L4 mission should not equate to my death at the hands of another capsuleer.

The solution is to allow us to enable a setting - much like the safety - that does not allow us to aggress suspects. That means missiles will find another target or fire into empty space. That means drones will find another target or stay idle. That means manually enabling my guns will give a message, "please remove your suspect engagement restrictions".

That is completely logical, sane and balanced. Arguing against that is basically saying, "I can't kill PVPers so give me some easy people to shoot at".

I don't say this as a risk averse carebear; this character I'm posting on is purely setup for ganking haulers for instance. I enjoy ganking and hi-sec. I don't think hi-sec aggro against PVE players is always a bad thing. It just has to be balanced and make sense. The current mechanics DO NOT!

this setting does already exist, set you drones to passive, problem solved

this game is pvp based, deal with it, it has been dumbed down way too much already because of ppl unable to use their brain and are too lazy to spend 10 minutes setting up their overview / drones settings and learning the aggro mechanics.

you don't wan't pvp => gtfo from eve
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#196 - 2014-01-06 17:44:00 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:


you don't wan't pvp => gtfo from eve

Yes, that is indeed the solution we are looking for. Eve has ever, and is always solely a PVP game. Any PVE content should be removed b/c it isn't pvp anyways. Problem solved.

Also, to those who claim drones have always since the begining of time automatically (on their own) engaged all suspects i ask this. Why all of a sudden is the only way for you to kill these shiney mission ships by shooting MTU? Why not just loot their wrecks if that supposedly draws drone aggro? Why is everyone now claiming pride in how many ships they've gotten to kill b/c of the MTU...i would think the number of mission runners with wrecks is greater than the number that are using MTU's....so wouldn't it just be easier?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2014-01-06 20:16:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
What makes you think it's a bug?

so, not in highsec often enough to bother learning crimewatch, but isnt the purpose of setting your "guns" green to rpevent any hostile action against another player?

why should drones, the primary weapon system of several ships, be excluded from this? is this just a "sorry or being a ****** and training drone skills" to all mission runners?

just saying, mission runners deal with enough crap using drones, dotn need them aggroing every player that warps into the mission.
Colman Dietmar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2014-01-07 03:38:01 UTC
The real question here is, why does destroying assets in highsec not make you a criminal? Attacking as little as a container will get you concorded, so why is the tractor unit an exception to this rule?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#199 - 2014-01-07 09:06:55 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Tippia wrote:
What makes you think it's a bug?

so, not in highsec often enough to bother learning crimewatch, but isnt the purpose of setting your "guns" green to rpevent any hostile action against another player?

why should drones, the primary weapon system of several ships, be excluded from this? is this just a "sorry or being a ****** and training drone skills" to all mission runners?

just saying, mission runners deal with enough crap using drones, dotn need them aggroing every player that warps into the mission.

You are highly misinformed. Let me enlight you and anyone else in here who can't read. If you mouse over the green Enable Safety button in the safety setting window, you will see the following dialog window pop up:

To prevent all actions that would give you suspect or criminal status.

So when you attack a suspect player guess what. Does your status become suspect? No, no it does not. Does your status become criminal? Absolutely not.

So as you can see, it is functioning EXACTLY the way it says it will. Now, who here doesn't understand?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#200 - 2014-01-07 09:10:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Colman Dietmar wrote:
The real question here is, why does destroying assets in highsec not make you a criminal? Attacking as little as a container will get you concorded, so why is the tractor unit an exception to this rule?

Because the developers designed them this way. They even went as far as putting out multiple dev blogs and even talked about this very aspect in one or two videos. But the summary is they want the PLAYERS to be the ones to take action. And guess what, that is exactly what is happening. Players are taking action.