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Drones Online

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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#261 - 2013-12-26 13:00:34 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Because it's the most realistic of our options? It makes sense. It doesn't mean the Nag is overpowered, it means it's the only dread that really counters slowcat fleets.


so is the archon, most realistic option there to survive hordes of all your blues which even only works due to immense investment into the fleet doctrine.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#262 - 2013-12-26 13:08:03 UTC
Right... I suppose we have the same reason. What?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Ivanna Logoffski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2013-12-26 13:26:59 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Because it's the most realistic of our options? It makes sense. It doesn't mean the Nag is overpowered, it means it's the only dread that really counters slowcat fleets.


so is the archon, most realistic option there to survive hordes of all your blues which even only works due to immense investment into the fleet doctrine.


No, the most realistic option to fight the CFC subcap fleets is to bring your own subcap fleets. Capitals were never meant to stomp the crap out of subcaps and CCP need to correct that now that they do. Obvious first step would be to limit the amount of drones that can be assisted to the same person to five. A nerf to sentry drone range and tracking would probably be needed to even if the drone assist is the main issue in Eve warfare at this point.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#264 - 2013-12-26 13:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Because it's the most realistic of our options? It makes sense. It doesn't mean the Nag is overpowered, it means it's the only dread that really counters slowcat fleets.


so is the archon, most realistic option there to survive hordes of all your blues which even only works due to immense investment into the fleet doctrine.


No, the most realistic option to fight the CFC subcap fleets is to bring your own subcap fleets. Capitals were never meant to stomp the crap out of subcaps and CCP need to correct that now that they do. Obvious first step would be to limit the amount of drones that can be assisted to the same person to five. A nerf to sentry drone range and tracking would probably be needed to even if the drone assist is the main issue in Eve warfare at this point.


nope.gif
eve is sand box so whats the most effective way to deal with you its being played.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#265 - 2013-12-26 14:02:07 UTC
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Capitals were never meant to stomp the crap out of subcaps.


Says who?

Were you on the original design team for capitals? Can you maybe share some of the original design notes for capitals?

Do you also believe that frigates should be untouchable by Battleships and Battlecruisers?

Do you think it would be ok that since in your 'ideal' world caps can hurt subcaps that the reverse would be true as well in that subcaps can't hurt caps and you need caps to fight caps?




Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#266 - 2013-12-26 14:18:32 UTC
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Because it's the most realistic of our options? It makes sense. It doesn't mean the Nag is overpowered, it means it's the only dread that really counters slowcat fleets.


so is the archon, most realistic option there to survive hordes of all your blues which even only works due to immense investment into the fleet doctrine.


No, the most realistic option to fight the CFC subcap fleets is to bring your own subcap fleets. Capitals were never meant to stomp the crap out of subcaps and CCP need to correct that now that they do. Obvious first step would be to limit the amount of drones that can be assisted to the same person to five. A nerf to sentry drone range and tracking would probably be needed to even if the drone assist is the main issue in Eve warfare at this point.


Escalating a subcap fight to a cap fight to win is the only way to beat a force of superior numbers. If EVE is supposed to be even remotely realistic smaller forces need to be able to fight off larger, ill prepared forces.

Last Stand of the 300, Thermopylae, etc etc buzzwords.
This is Sparta. Yay.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#267 - 2013-12-26 14:19:25 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Capitals were never meant to stomp the crap out of subcaps.


Says who?

Were you on the original design team for capitals? Can you maybe share some of the original design notes for capitals?

Do you also believe that frigates should be untouchable by Battleships and Battlecruisers?

Do you think it would be ok that since in your 'ideal' world caps can hurt subcaps that the reverse would be true as well in that subcaps can't hurt caps and you need caps to fight caps?


Do you live in an imaginary world where all of the nerfs to supers never happened? Titans and motherships as well as dreadnaughts all ate large nerfs in the last few years specifically to their ability to engage subcaps. Carriers were saved from losing their non-fighter drones specifically because they were supposedly still weak enough to be engaged by subcaps, something which is obviously no longer true.

So one would think you'd be a bit more cautious about openly crowing how your carrier fleet is immune to all subcaps.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#268 - 2013-12-26 14:24:01 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Capitals were never meant to stomp the crap out of subcaps.


Says who?

Were you on the original design team for capitals? Can you maybe share some of the original design notes for capitals?

Do you also believe that frigates should be untouchable by Battleships and Battlecruisers?

Do you think it would be ok that since in your 'ideal' world caps can hurt subcaps that the reverse would be true as well in that subcaps can't hurt caps and you need caps to fight caps?


Do you live in an imaginary world where all of the nerfs to supers never happened? Titans and motherships as well as dreadnaughts all ate large nerfs in the last few years specifically to their ability to engage subcaps. Carriers were saved from losing their non-fighter drones specifically because they were supposedly still weak enough to be engaged by subcaps, something which is obviously no longer true.

So one would think you'd be a bit more cautious about openly crowing how your carrier fleet is immune to all subcaps.


First of all, I didn't say they were immune to subcaps, I said since you want sub caps immune to caps would you be ok if caps were immune to sub caps.

Second, Dreads haven't been nerfed. Ever. They've actually been buffed. Nothing, repeat NOTHING about the dreads has been nerfed.

Third, Titans and Supercarriers aren't caps, those are Titans and Supercarriers, otherwise known as Super Capitals as a generalization, not regular capitals.

Hope this lesson to for the "Numbers should always Win" crowd was helpful.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#269 - 2013-12-26 14:33:05 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Because it's the most realistic of our options? It makes sense. It doesn't mean the Nag is overpowered, it means it's the only dread that really counters slowcat fleets.


so is the archon, most realistic option there to survive hordes of all your blues which even only works due to immense investment into the fleet doctrine.


No, the most realistic option to fight the CFC subcap fleets is to bring your own subcap fleets. Capitals were never meant to stomp the crap out of subcaps and CCP need to correct that now that they do. Obvious first step would be to limit the amount of drones that can be assisted to the same person to five. A nerf to sentry drone range and tracking would probably be needed to even if the drone assist is the main issue in Eve warfare at this point.


Escalating a subcap fight to a cap fight to win is the only way to beat a force of superior numbers. If EVE is supposed to be even remotely realistic smaller forces need to be able to fight off larger, ill prepared forces.

Last Stand of the 300, Thermopylae, etc etc buzzwords.
This is Sparta. Yay.


The 300 all died....
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#270 - 2013-12-26 14:34:54 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Because it's the most realistic of our options? It makes sense. It doesn't mean the Nag is overpowered, it means it's the only dread that really counters slowcat fleets.


so is the archon, most realistic option there to survive hordes of all your blues which even only works due to immense investment into the fleet doctrine.


No, the most realistic option to fight the CFC subcap fleets is to bring your own subcap fleets. Capitals were never meant to stomp the crap out of subcaps and CCP need to correct that now that they do. Obvious first step would be to limit the amount of drones that can be assisted to the same person to five. A nerf to sentry drone range and tracking would probably be needed to even if the drone assist is the main issue in Eve warfare at this point.


Escalating a subcap fight to a cap fight to win is the only way to beat a force of superior numbers. If EVE is supposed to be even remotely realistic smaller forces need to be able to fight off larger, ill prepared forces.

Last Stand of the 300, Thermopylae, etc etc buzzwords.
This is Sparta. Yay.


The 300 all died....


In that fight, they later murderzoned a ton of dudes and won the war

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Themanfromdalmontee
EVE RADIO ARMY
#271 - 2013-12-26 14:37:15 UTC
Zulu Death Mask wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/AvU6SW0.jpg


The current state of nullsec warfare looks like countless fuN!!!!11111


Hi There, I'm sure CCP really didn't know about the potential problems with drones at the moment...you know they live in this bubble with noone talking to them like the CSM etc..

You have done a massive service to us!
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#272 - 2013-12-26 14:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:

The 300 all died....


After lasting three days against half a million enemy soldiers and killing countless thousands of them.

And Greece survived the Persian invasion as an independent nation.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#273 - 2013-12-26 15:12:01 UTC
They probably did so well because of all that TIDI. If it weren't for the tidi the movie would have been 300 seconds long.
Ivanna Logoffski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2013-12-26 16:59:07 UTC
Fixing drone assist (target your own weapons you scrubs) and making a separate drone bay (500-1000m3) plus a fighter bay on carriers, coupled with a slight nerf to sentry drone tracking and range would go a long way towards turning Eve from "Drones Online" to a game where you have to adapt fleet composition and tactics for each fight. Currently drones are overpowered and when used by carriers this is just amplified. I wouldn't go as far as making carriers use fighters only but their capacity to bring regular drones must be greatly reduced and the abomination called drone assist should be buried. Make it like fighters, 5 drones can be assisted to your buddy in a fastlocking ship but only if he doesn't already use his own or someone elses drones.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#275 - 2013-12-26 17:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Fixing drone assist (target your own weapons you scrubs) and making a separate drone bay (500-1000m3) plus a fighter bay on carriers, coupled with a slight nerf to sentry drone tracking and range would go a long way towards turning Eve from "Drones Online" to a game where you have to adapt fleet composition and tactics for each fight. Currently drones are overpowered and when used by carriers this is just amplified. I wouldn't go as far as making carriers use fighters only but their capacity to bring regular drones must be greatly reduced and the abomination called drone assist should be buried. Make it like fighters, 5 drones can be assisted to your buddy in a fastlocking ship but only if he doesn't already use his own or someone elses drones.


So then when will we address the true problem, bringing 2000 [insert FOTM doctrine here] to a fight and winning unless your target brought 2001 [FOTM doctrine ships]?

You can nerf slowcats but slowcats CAN be countered without a nerf. Titansblobs or dreadblobs.
The idea of two bays (one fighters one drones) is the best (and probably only) solution I've seen so far that wasn't NERF DA OP SHIPZ so plus one internet for constructive posting.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#276 - 2013-12-26 17:10:57 UTC
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
the abomination called drone assist should be buried..


Sure, but in that case you need to take all controls like that away, which would mean regrouping, and fleet warping as well.

If its so disgusting to people that you can turn part of your ships control over to somebody else, then there shouldn't be any half measures, when your FC wants you to warp, he calls it and the pilot executes, no more squad/wing/fleet warps.

This whole "giving control of your ship away" would be a valid argument if people were attacking ALL the ways you can give control of your ship away.

However they're not, they're just attacking the parts that are hurting them.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#277 - 2013-12-26 17:22:29 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
That picture is a bombers wet dream?


True but it's so much easier to ISBox 15 Archons than 4 or 5 and a squad of Bombers.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Ivanna Logoffski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2013-12-26 17:50:59 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
the abomination called drone assist should be buried..


Sure, but in that case you need to take all controls like that away, which would mean regrouping, and fleet warping as well.

If its so disgusting to people that you can turn part of your ships control over to somebody else, then there shouldn't be any half measures, when your FC wants you to warp, he calls it and the pilot executes, no more squad/wing/fleet warps.

This whole "giving control of your ship away" would be a valid argument if people were attacking ALL the ways you can give control of your ship away.

However they're not, they're just attacking the parts that are hurting them.


Unless I can let the FC aim and fire my 1400 arties I don't see why he should be able to control my drones.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#279 - 2013-12-26 18:01:08 UTC
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ivanna Logoffski wrote:
the abomination called drone assist should be buried..


Sure, but in that case you need to take all controls like that away, which would mean regrouping, and fleet warping as well.

If its so disgusting to people that you can turn part of your ships control over to somebody else, then there shouldn't be any half measures, when your FC wants you to warp, he calls it and the pilot executes, no more squad/wing/fleet warps.

This whole "giving control of your ship away" would be a valid argument if people were attacking ALL the ways you can give control of your ship away.

However they're not, they're just attacking the parts that are hurting them.


Unless I can let the FC aim and fire my 1400 arties I don't see why he should be able to control my drones.


Well if he can't control your 1400 arties then he shouldn't be able to warp your ship either.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#280 - 2013-12-26 18:11:21 UTC
So one side of the coin says: you need to get as many supers and titans to fight our supers and titans

The other side says: you need to get as many soldiers to fight our soldiers

Who is right and who is wrong? CCP what is your vision for the archon, the sentry drone and supercapitals???