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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1621 - 2013-12-23 11:48:26 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Nestor bonus: When a Nestor is destroyed, 100 fireworks shoot in all directions and the in-game music is temporarily replaced with "Ode To Joy", for everyone on grid.


Also a website window pops up informing you where u can buy a new sex toy.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#1622 - 2013-12-23 12:10:51 UTC
The problem I see with the Nestor is the same problem I see with the Astero and the Stratios which is: There is always a better choice.

Cov ops frigates are better than the Astero and also cheaper and have a much reduced cloak reuse timer. Tech III cruisers are better than the Stratios and only a tiny bit more expensive and have a much reduced cloak reuse timer (with the cov ops subsystem). The Nestor is too much of a hodgepodge to be a better choice than any other ship. If you're using it for logistics a tech II logi is better in terms of cost, overall tank and manoeuvrability. If you're using it for exploration cov ops or tech III are better simply for cost and ability to GTFO. If you're using it for dps there are a lot of other choices that are better and pretty much all of them are a lot cheaper.

I simply don't see the point in using any of the SOE ships which is a shame because they're nice looking ships (except the Nestor which, considering the ring at the front doesn't actually have any real purpose, looks wrong).
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1623 - 2013-12-23 12:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Tchulen wrote:
The problem I see with the Nestor is the same problem I see with the Astero and the Stratios which is: There is always a better choice.

Cov ops frigates are better than the Astero and also cheaper and have a much reduced cloak reuse timer. Tech III cruisers are better than the Stratios and only a tiny bit more expensive and have a much reduced cloak reuse timer (with the cov ops subsystem). The Nestor is too much of a hodgepodge to be a better choice than any other ship. If you're using it for logistics a tech II logi is better in terms of cost, overall tank and manoeuvrability. If you're using it for exploration cov ops or tech III are better simply for cost and ability to GTFO. If you're using it for dps there are a lot of other choices that are better and pretty much all of them are a lot cheaper.

I simply don't see the point in using any of the SOE ships which is a shame because they're nice looking ships (except the Nestor which, considering the ring at the front doesn't actually have any real purpose, looks wrong).



For sites, the Stratios has a small niche. You cannot enter 4/10 with a T3 cruiser anymore making it the only cloaky cruiser left to do them efficiently.

On the other hand you can blitz those in an Astero, so go figure.

.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#1624 - 2013-12-23 12:53:43 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
For sites, the Stratios has a small niche. You cannot enter 4/10 with a T3 cruiser anymore making it the only cloaky cruiser left to do them efficiently.

On the other hand you can blitz those in a Astero, so go figure.


Yes, you're quite correct on both points. For 4/10 any cruiser or assault cruiser is better than the Stratios on cost.

To be honest, I live in nullsec and had completely failed to consider the uses in highsec. Yes, I can see the use of the Stratios in high sec exploration. That is quite a niche use though, as you say.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1625 - 2013-12-23 14:45:12 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
For sites, the Stratios has a small niche. You cannot enter 4/10 with a T3 cruiser anymore making it the only cloaky cruiser left to do them efficiently.

On the other hand you can blitz those in a Astero, so go figure.


Yes, you're quite correct on both points. For 4/10 any cruiser or assault cruiser is better than the Stratios on cost.

To be honest, I live in nullsec and had completely failed to consider the uses in highsec. Yes, I can see the use of the Stratios in high sec exploration. That is quite a niche use though, as you say.


It's also lowsec, hence cloaking is a bonus.

.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#1626 - 2013-12-23 14:59:48 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
For sites, the Stratios has a small niche. You cannot enter 4/10 with a T3 cruiser anymore making it the only cloaky cruiser left to do them efficiently.

On the other hand you can blitz those in a Astero, so go figure.


Yes, you're quite correct on both points. For 4/10 any cruiser or assault cruiser is better than the Stratios on cost.

To be honest, I live in nullsec and had completely failed to consider the uses in highsec. Yes, I can see the use of the Stratios in high sec exploration. That is quite a niche use though, as you say.


It's also lowsec, hence cloaking is a bonus.


My bad. I've only done 4/10s in high. I didn't realise they were in low sec as well. It's amazing really. Having been in WHs and nullsec for so long I'm a tad ignorant on the ways of high and low sec these days. Lol
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1627 - 2013-12-23 15:59:54 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:

Why would a person want to hack with a 2 billion isk battleship? I'm puzzled...

I only say it as more fluff- if someone was actually daft enough to use it for that, then it should at least be slightly better than the right ship to use for itLol

I wouldn't hack with it, but +2 warp core strength would be a welcome improvement Big smile

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Nicolas Main-Guet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1628 - 2013-12-23 16:30:28 UTC
Here my proposition to make the Nestor a nice ship to fly :


Nestor
800,000 LP
800,000,000 ISK

Discount Nestor (From the Sanctuary)
640,000 LP
640,000,000 ISK

Nestor Blueprint
480,000 LP
120,000,000 ISK

Discount Nestor Blueprint (From the Sanctuary)
320,000 LP
80,000,000 ISK
XAJIRBA Darth
All Your Wrecks Are Bolong To Sith
#1629 - 2013-12-23 18:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: XAJIRBA Darth
My two possible solutions for this ship (based on the same idea):

NESTOR case1
Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level
Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
50% bonus to remote armor repairer amount
100% bonus to remote armor repairer range
100% bonus to large energy turret damage
50% increased strength for scan probes
+10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers

Slot layout: 6H+1H (reserved for Sisters Probe Launcher only, like a Zephyr high slot), 6M, 7L; 3 turrets, 0 launchers

OR

NESTOR case2
Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level
Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
50% bonus to remote armor repairer amount
100% bonus to remote armor repairer range
100% bonus to large energy turret damage
50% increased strength for scan probes
+10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers - removed

Slot layout: 7H, 5M+1M (reserved for a Special Sisters Data & Relic Analyzer with +10 strenth), 7L; 3 turrets, 0 launchers


And now comments about what those fits acomplish:

1. "Nestor vs Domi" issue. If you put it simply the Amarr +4% armor res bonus on Nestor equals to one armor resistance module in low. Nestor has one low slot less then a Domi wich makes them equal in terms of tanking, but one main bonus is wasted on Nestor. In the end Domi is way better in Sentri drones control as it is now. In both my cases for Nestor stats i gave it 7low slots. This way Nestor is still worse then Domi in controling Sentries, but atleast he is better in tanking.

2. "Scanning on a 2 bill BS - lol" issue. All SoE ships have a scanning theme and Nestor is not an exception. Most likely Nestor was given 6 mid slots for this sole purpose (to be able to hack/ archeology/ cargo scan at same time). Since i gave Nestor one extra low i needed to pay with something else. Removing 1 mid will mostlikely hurt the hacking/analyzing part. Removing 1 high will most likely hurt its scanning/RR part. So my idea is to reserve one high (Case1) or one mid (Case2) for scanning/ hacking equipement only. Practically this "removes" one combat slot, but gives this ship the desired scanning theme... Nestor is a special enough already, why not make it special like Echelon or Zephyr.Blink

3. "Lazors Pew Pew" powergrid and capacitor issue. Nestor (atm) lacks powergrid to fit 5 beams and can hardly fit 5 pulses - so optimal range bonus is half wasted here anyway. My idea was to lower turrets hardpoints quantity to 3, but give it a +100% dmg bonus. This way both powergrid and capacitor issues are gone and lasers are gonna be prefered turret platform for this ship. And you can fit Beams with Scorches on it now - this practically compensates the loss of optimal range bonus.

Sorry for the wall of text. Tried to fix most common issues all at once while keeping the ship overly the same.
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1630 - 2013-12-23 20:38:57 UTC
XAJIRBA Darth wrote:
My two possible solutions for this ship (based on the same idea):

NESTOR case1
Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level
Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
50% bonus to remote armor repairer amount
100% bonus to remote armor repairer range
100% bonus to large energy turret damage
50% increased strength for scan probes
+10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers

Slot layout: 6H+1H (reserved for Sisters Probe Launcher only, like a Zephyr high slot), 6M, 7L; 3 turrets, 0 launchers

OR

NESTOR case2
Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level
Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
50% bonus to remote armor repairer amount
100% bonus to remote armor repairer range
100% bonus to large energy turret damage
50% increased strength for scan probes
+10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers - removed

Slot layout: 7H, 5M+1M (reserved for a Special Sisters Data & Relic Analyzer with +10 strenth), 7L; 3 turrets, 0 launchers


And now comments about what those fits acomplish:

1. "Nestor vs Domi" issue. If you put it simply the Amarr +4% armor res bonus on Nestor equals to one armor resistance module in low. Nestor has one low slot less then a Domi wich makes them equal in terms of tanking, but one main bonus is wasted on Nestor. In the end Domi is way better in Sentri drones control as it is now. In both my cases for Nestor stats i gave it 7low slots. This way Nestor is still worse then Domi in controling Sentries, but atleast he is better in tanking.

2. "Scanning on a 2 bill BS - lol" issue. All SoE ships have a scanning theme and Nestor is not an exception. Most likely Nestor was given 6 mid slots for this sole purpose (to be able to hack/ archeology/ cargo scan at same time). Since i gave Nestor one extra low i needed to pay with something else. Removing 1 mid will mostlikely hurt the hacking/analyzing part. Removing 1 high will most likely hurt its scanning/RR part. So my idea is to reserve one high (Case1) or one mid (Case2) for scanning/ hacking equipement only. Practically this "removes" one combat slot, but gives this ship the desired scanning theme... Nestor is a special enough already, why not make it special like Echelon or Zephyr.Blink

3. "Lazors Pew Pew" powergrid and capacitor issue. Nestor (atm) lacks powergrid to fit 5 beams and can hardly fit 5 pulses - so optimal range bonus is half wasted here anyway. My idea was to lower turrets hardpoints quantity to 3, but give it a +100% dmg bonus. This way both powergrid and capacitor issues are gone and lasers are gonna be prefered turret platform for this ship. And you can fit Beams with Scorches on it now - this practically compensates the loss of optimal range bonus.

Sorry for the wall of text. Tried to fix most common issues all at once while keeping the ship overly the same.


I think you are operating with a few misconceptions about SoE ships and CCP's take on them. First, the Nestor will never get a 100% lasor damage bonus. People were sceaming for it in the last SoE thread and it was much louder than in this one. If CCP was going to give the ships damage bonuses they would have already. Second, yes this ship is special but only so much as the battleship from the first not totally evil pirate faction can be. It is not a special edition ship for the privledged to fly or a single release ship that can't be replaced when destroyed. Those kinds of ships have very little impact to game play were as the Nestor can be flown in fleets with thousands of its own kind or never produced at all if it isn't balanced correctly.

Finally, only a few BSs can effectively fit Tachs. What you and others are not realizing is that the other SoE ships can't fit the most powerful weapons in their class without making severe fitting compromises. The Nestor has 2 other large beam laser turrets to choose from and they both follow the trends of the smaller classes of turrets. Tachs are a step above that and are only used on specialty sniping ships, a role the Nestor fails at due to its average lock range. In no way do lasers need to be the only turrets seen on this ship, the bonus is there to balance the ship between races and subtly encourage their use not to shoe horn the ship into only fitting lasers.
XAJIRBA Darth
All Your Wrecks Are Bolong To Sith
#1631 - 2013-12-23 20:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: XAJIRBA Darth
Roy Alleyne wrote:
XAJIRBA Darth wrote:
My wall of text


I think you are operating with a few misconceptions about SoE ships and CCP's take on them. First, the Nestor will never get a 100% lasor damage bonus. People were sceaming for it in the last SoE thread and it was much louder than in this one. If CCP was going to give the ships damage bonuses they would have already. Second, yes this ship is special but only so much as the battleship from the first not totally evil pirate faction can be. It is not a special edition ship for the privledged to fly or a single release ship that can't be replaced when destroyed. Those kinds of ships have very little impact to game play were as the Nestor can be flown in fleets with thousands of its own kind or never produced at all if it isn't balanced correctly.

Finally, only a few BSs can effectively fit Tachs. What you and others are not realizing is that the other SoE ships can't fit the most powerful weapons in their class without making severe fitting compromises. The Nestor has 2 other large beam laser turrets to choose from and they both follow the trends of the smaller classes of turrets. Tachs are a step above that and are only used on specialty sniping ships, a role the Nestor fails at due to its average lock range. In no way do lasers need to be the only turrets seen on this ship, the bonus is there to balance the ship between races and subtly encourage their use not to shoe horn the ship into only fitting lasers.


Basicaly all you said: my point number 3. is nevah gonna happen ... well, it would be still great if 1. and 2. are applied Smile
Roy Alleyne wrote:

The Nestor has 2 other large beam laser turrets

and btw try fiting 5 Mega Beams into 11k powergrid boat ... only 5 Dual Heavy Beams are possible on the current Nestor and they are a complete joke

Roy Alleyne wrote:

What you and others are not realizing is that the other SoE ships can't fit the most powerful weapons in their class without making severe fitting compromises.

Othe SoE ships cant fit most powerful weapons in their class because they are Covert Ops! I dont see a reason why not covert SoE BS is supposed to be a crap boat just because you think that it must obey the frig and criusers trend.
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1632 - 2013-12-24 00:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
XAJIRBA Darth wrote:


Basicaly all you said: my point number 3. is nevah gonna happen ... well, it would be still great if 1. and 2. are applied Smile
Roy Alleyne wrote:

The Nestor has 2 other large beam laser turrets

and btw try fiting 5 Mega Beams into 11k powergrid boat ... only 5 Dual Heavy Beams are possible on the current Nestor and they are a complete joke

Roy Alleyne wrote:

What you and others are not realizing is that the other SoE ships can't fit the most powerful weapons in their class without making severe fitting compromises.

Othe SoE ships cant fit most powerful weapons in their class because they are Covert Ops! I dont see a reason why not covert SoE BS is supposed to be a crap boat just because you think that it must obey the frig and criusers trend.


I didn't talk about your points 1 and 2 for different reasons. Point 1 was because I can't find a flaw with your reasoning other than a simple 'CCP won't do it for continuity and balancing reasons' so I declined to comment as it wasn't a point that could be rationally argued without CCP being directly involved. I did address point 2 in passing when I stated that introducing artificially limited slots or other specialized abilities went against the grain of EVE ship doctrine in general. To get more specific, trying to shoe horn a BS into a probing role is the epitome of folly. The limitations of the hull weight are simply to great to overcome without an absurd number of exeptions and special bonuses, which is the reason that a few of us in the thread are offering suggestions for tuneing the Nestor for long term, small fleet command or support depending on the person's views about OPness. As to the Nestor's lack of fitting ability, you are right that it follows SoE lines and that the lines are tuned for use with covops cloaks. To this point you are also right, to fix this I recommend CCP implement a cloak velocity bonus rather than buff the fitting potential but that is mearly an opinion.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1633 - 2013-12-24 00:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Well, it is supposed to be bad at everything (which is just the true way of saying 'jack of all trades'). So we can argue all day long if we cannot convince CCP that we do not want such a ship.
Hell, at this point I'll be satisfied if this ship will be good for something, even if it is not what I'd like to do, as long as some niche group can be happy with it.

Roy Alleyne wrote:
I recommend CCP implement a cloak velocity bonus rather than buff the fitting potential


You mean covert jump drive instead, right? Right? PTwisted

.
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1634 - 2013-12-24 03:53:20 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Well, it is supposed to be bad at everything (which is just the true way of saying 'jack of all trades'). So we can argue all day long if we cannot convince CCP that we do not want such a ship.
Hell, at this point I'll be satisfied if this ship will be good for something, even if it is not what I'd like to do, as long as some niche group can be happy with it.

Roy Alleyne wrote:
I recommend CCP implement a cloak velocity bonus rather than buff the fitting potential


You mean covert jump drive instead, right? Right? PTwisted

Your right, this ship isn't supposed to be awesome at any single thing. The problem comes in where you want the few things it is good at to come together to allow the ship to perform a role better than a ship that is to specialized. Rise and his team did an amazing job at this when they released the Astero and Stratios. Both ships are less viable for either probing or combat than their more specialized cousins but are more capable than them in a single task, deployment far away from a player's staging system and their other ships and supplies.

On the other hand, BSs are more limited in what they are capable of than frigates or cruisers. They are less mobile, making them less desirable for moving long distances or jumping systems repeatedly. These drawbacks prohibit BSs from traveling alone or keeping pace with the ships that can. If the goal is to produce a ship that is capable of deployment away from supply lines then there is a need to both add mobility to the hull and give it a reason for faster ships to wait for it to catch up.

For adding mobility, a covert jump drive would be useful for BlOps gangs and for moving around a little safer through null but a cloaked velocity bonus is much more versatile as it would allow safer movement everywhere, from system to system travel to warping around within a system. I wouldn't object to both but a jump drive isn't as important and is more powerful from a balance perspective.

A reason for other ships to wait, is more tricky. The added firepower, RR, and cargo space already provided by the Nestor may be enough though these are limited. A more sure solution would be to allow the ship to act as a mobile resupply station with a refitting service and other support features. Another option, as posted above, would be to have the ship provide a command function with warfare links and other fleet bonuses.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1635 - 2013-12-24 11:25:58 UTC
Apart from the jumpdrive being OP, I don't disagree with anything else you said.

Just decide what it is made for and give this ship something and not a tiny bit of everything. I don't care what it is, but it has to be something that says 'I want this ship and not any other' for whatever single thing it was made for. This is how the current pirate ships work - well, it is rumored they want to nerf at least one them to oblivion, so maybe they don't want that anymore at all, which would be a shame.

Bhalgorn - neutsupport and force multiplier (webrange)
Machariel - highest alpha, versitile tank
Rattlesnake - totally passive possible
Nightmare - highest dps on usable ranges and application bonus
Vindicator - force multiplier (webbonus)

Nestor...?!

.
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#1636 - 2013-12-24 19:13:17 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:


Bhalgorn - neutsupport and force multiplier (webrange)
Machariel - highest alpha, versitile tank
Rattlesnake - totally passive possible
Nightmare - highest dps on usable ranges and application bonus
Vindicator - force multiplier (webbonus)

Nestor...?!


Well, until they all get "rebalanced".

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ADMIRAL RJ
RJs Private Militia
#1637 - 2013-12-24 20:06:41 UTC
can we get it able to fit Black Ops Portal Generators?
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1638 - 2013-12-24 21:19:21 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:


Well, until they all get "rebalanced".


Yeah, a fearsome thought...

.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#1639 - 2013-12-24 21:53:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi

I am very relieved to finally show you the Sisters of EVE Battleship, the Nestor. We weren't able to get it finalized before Rubicon went out, but that's alright because now it makes a nice Christmas present (just kidding it's not until (late)January).

We all agreed that keeping the covert cloak theme was not going to work for the battleship. Instead, we've kept the rest of the exploration feel from the Stratios and Astero by giving the Nestor hacking and probing bonuses, but instead of cloaking it will receive a bonus to remote armor repair amount, drawing on the Sisters of EVE themes of aid and relief. On top of that, the Nestor (as designed currently) has incredibly low mass - around half the mass of a normal Battleship. This should make it very popular in wormholes. The rest of the attribute layout follows the principles from the other Sisters of EVE ships pretty closely, as do the bonuses.

Here's the details:

NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
50% bonus to remote armor repairer amount
100% bonus to remote armor repairer range
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
50% increased strength for scan probes
+10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 11250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity: 700

It will be acquired in the same way that the Stratios and Astero are, via Sisters of EVE LP stores. Here are the LP offer specifics:

Nestor
1,000,000 LP
100,000,000 ISK

Discount Nestor (From the Sanctuary)
800,000 LP
80,000,000 ISK

Nestor Blueprint
600,000 LP
150,000,000 ISK

Discount Nestor Blueprint (From the Sanctuary)
400,000 LP
100,000,000 ISK

I wanted to show you guys some art, but wasn't able to get ahold of the newest version today so I'll edit later with it.

Hope this is exciting! Let me know
o/

STEALTH EDIT by Manifest brings high res concept art: http://bit.ly/1izOFm4





Still needs more Scan res. and drone bonus to heavy drones.. 100% bonus to speed. the use of heavy drones is always back-seated vs sentry drones due to poor application of dps due to tame it takes them to reach their target.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#1640 - 2013-12-24 21:55:42 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Apart from the jumpdrive being OP, I don't disagree with anything else you said.

Just decide what it is made for and give this ship something and not a tiny bit of everything. I don't care what it is, but it has to be something that says 'I want this ship and not any other' for whatever single thing it was made for. This is how the current pirate ships work - well, it is rumored they want to nerf at least one them to oblivion, so maybe they don't want that anymore at all, which would be a shame.

Bhalgorn - neutsupport and force multiplier (webrange)
Machariel - highest alpha, versitile tank
Rattlesnake - totally passive possible
Nightmare - highest dps on usable ranges and application bonus
Vindicator - force multiplier (webbonus)

Nestor...?!


Nestor = exploration and possable prolonged deployment on exploration roams. it is not nessesarly a pvp ship, i wish people would stop theorycrafting it as a pvp ship.. its that kind of BULL-POO which got the stratios nerfed cause of damn EFT warriors.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]