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The great missile debate

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Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#221 - 2013-12-22 21:48:07 UTC
Quote:
I always thought the devs were Gallente citizens since i started playing in 06. I fought a gallente cruiser the other day who had 600 DPS he was putting out. A cruiser.


I have a Gila that puts out 700. It's not common, but it's certainly not impossible for a cruiser to put out that much. My ratting Tengu puts out just under a thousand.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#222 - 2013-12-22 21:57:04 UTC
Ok, needs to be said: Shooting HACs with torps is like shooting them with 1400 arty up close.
If youre doing either, you brought the WRONG tool for the job.

Missiles are fine.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#223 - 2013-12-22 21:59:10 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Ok, needs to be said: Shooting HACs with torps is like shooting them with 1400 arty up close.
If youre doing either, you brought the WRONG tool for the job.

Missiles are fine.


Torps are the short range missile system out of the 'large size group'. Try again.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#224 - 2013-12-22 22:35:38 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Ok, needs to be said: Shooting HACs with torps is like shooting them with 1400 arty up close.
If youre doing either, you brought the WRONG tool for the job.

Missiles are fine.

So what you're saying is that the short range torpedo should be comparable to 1400mm artillery?
Does this mean that my cruise missiles are going to be comparable in damage and application to autocannons?

Or maybe you're trying to say that you shouldn't be able to shoot down a size with a short range weapon system?
Either way, you're wrong.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#225 - 2013-12-22 22:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Ok, needs to be said: Shooting HACs with torps is like shooting them with 1400 arty up close.
If youre doing either, you brought the WRONG tool for the job.

Missiles are fine.


Torps are the short range missile system out of the 'large size group'. Try again.


Torps are also battle-ship grade weapons being used on a class of cruiser known for having a small sig. In addition, Torps have an abnormally large explosion radius, because while they are short-range, they are also significantly higher DPS than cruise, and thus are designed only to attack the larger targets

For turrets, there's a standard pattern. Close range = higher DPS, higher tracking, shorter optimal, shorter cycle time. Long-range is the opposite. The mediums mess that up a bit because of the latest buffs (some of the medium long-range ones now do more DPS than the short-range versions), but that's pretty much the rule.

Missiles are completely haywire here. Rockets are better than Light missiles at smaller targets. HAMs are better than Heavy Missiles. Their T2 variants screw that up even more. Below are the rankings for damage applications alone (excluding considerations of DPS potential).

For small ammo:

Precision Light > T1 Rocket = Javelin Rocket > T1 Light > Rage Rocket > Fury Light

For medium ammo:

T1 HAM = Javelin HAM > Precision Heavy > T1 Heavy > Rage HAM > Fury Heavy

However, for large ammo:

Precision Cruise > T1 Cruise > T1 Torpedo = Javelin Torpedo > Fury Cruise > Rage Torpedo

In fact, a Precision Cruise applies damage 99% as well as a Fury Heavy, and 70% as well as a Rage HAM.

Missiles can be compared directly be multiplying their single-hardpoint DPS (no bonuses or skills) by the ratio of their explosion velocity to their explosion radius. Missiles with a higher factor from that will always do more damage - unless the target is sufficiently slow that the (SigRad/ExpRad) factor in the missile equation takes effect, or the missile has hit 100% damage.

Using T2 launchers with no skills or bonuses, here's the figures for all of the subcap classes of missile, sorted in order from largest factor (best damage application) to smallest (worst damage application):

Rocket (T1) - 61.8750
Light (Precision) - 56.4400
Rocket (Javelin) - 55.6875
Rocket (Rage) - 42.3044
Light (T1) - 29.3958
Light (Fury) - 20.0338
HAM (T1) - 12.6250
HAM (Javelin) - 11.3625
Heavy (Precision) - 8.7300
HAM (Rage) - 8.5356
Heavy (T1) - 6.5089
Cruise (Precision) - 6.3360
Torpedo (T1) - 4.9306
Cruise (T1) - 4.7406
Torpedo (Javelin) - 4.4375
Heavy (Fury) - 4.2794
Torpedo (Rage) - 3.3276
Cruise (Fury) - 3.2469

It's pretty easy to see there are a couple outliers. Precision Cruise missiles are particularly powerful compared to other large-size missiles. Fury Heavy missiles are particularly weak, especially considering that Rage HAMs both do more raw DPS and apply it about twice as well, and and Javelin HAMs do almost identical DPS but apply it roughly 3 times as well.

There's unfortunately no valid direct comparison with turrets (though turrets can similarly be compared to each other by multiplying their DPS by the ratio of their Tracking to their Signature Resolution, though that ignores range).
Jeb Vacano
Sovereignty Express
#226 - 2013-12-23 00:16:36 UTC
For all the deficiencies of missiles in pvp it is worth noting that they are just awesome in pve. Remember not everyone is a pirate.
There is something wonderful about seeing an whole wave of rats blow from just one salvo of missiles. Missiles may have lower dps, and yes they do, but that alpha is unmatched by any other weapon. This is not a good thing in lowsec where everyone has massive buffer tanks, but against rats it is the best there is.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#227 - 2013-12-23 01:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Ok, needs to be said: Shooting HACs with torps is like shooting them with 1400 arty up close.
If youre doing either, you brought the WRONG tool for the job.

Missiles are fine.

So what you're saying is that the short range torpedo should be comparable to 1400mm artillery?
Does this mean that my cruise missiles are going to be comparable in damage and application to autocannons?

Or maybe you're trying to say that you shouldn't be able to shoot down a size with a short range weapon system?
Either way, you're wrong.

1400s are the biggest guns and torps the biggest missiles, in terms of the targets theyre designed to hit. I would have thought the comparison obvious but apparently not...
Youre also shooting down 2 ships classes, not one, as well as shooting a T2 ship specifically designed to be resilient and youre surprised that your weapons are not effective? pull the other one mate.

PS: nothing about this discussion has anything to do with range, feel free to read my first post as 1400s at any range.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#228 - 2013-12-23 02:27:45 UTC
Quote:
Missiles may have lower dps, and yes they do, but that alpha is unmatched by any other weapon.


Artillery begs to differ.

Maelstrom fit with 8 1400mm Howitzer IIs (Republic Fleet EMP L) and 2 Gyrostabs: 10692 alpha.

Raven Navy Issue fit with 8 Cruise Launcher IIs (Caldari Navy Scourge) and 5 Ballistic Control Systems: 6227 alpha.

Raven NI fit with 8 Torpedo Launcher IIs (Caldari Navy Scourge) and 5 Ballistic Control Systems: 7469 alpha.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the term "unmatched", but they seem pretty matched. Actually, they seem quite inferior. Perhaps that's why we see artillery used in alpha roles and not missiles. You know, just maybe.

Missiles, as a rule, actually tend to have moderate alpha for their DPS. Both cruise missiles and torps have rather high, in their bracket (they beat everything but artillery for alpha), but HAMs have a fairly high refire rate (6.4 seconds baseline), as do rockets (4 seconds baseline). Both Heavy and Light missiles have fairly long base refire rates (12 seconds), but they also suffer a much stronger DPS drop over their short-range variants, compared to turrets, since they don't have tracking to differentiate (and they fubared the damage application comparison for short versus long missiles).
Neal Altol
What Shall We Call It
#229 - 2013-12-23 04:41:11 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
Missiles may have lower dps, and yes they do, but that alpha is unmatched by any other weapon.


Artillery begs to differ.

Maelstrom fit with 8 1400mm Howitzer IIs (Republic Fleet EMP L) and 2 Gyrostabs: 10692 alpha.

Raven Navy Issue fit with 8 Cruise Launcher IIs (Caldari Navy Scourge) and 5 Ballistic Control Systems: 6227 alpha.

Raven NI fit with 8 Torpedo Launcher IIs (Caldari Navy Scourge) and 5 Ballistic Control Systems: 7469 alpha.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the term "unmatched", but they seem pretty matched. Actually, they seem quite inferior. Perhaps that's why we see artillery used in alpha roles and not missiles. You know, just maybe.

Missiles, as a rule, actually tend to have moderate alpha for their DPS. Both cruise missiles and torps have rather high, in their bracket (they beat everything but artillery for alpha), but HAMs have a fairly high refire rate (6.4 seconds baseline), as do rockets (4 seconds baseline). Both Heavy and Light missiles have fairly long base refire rates (12 seconds), but they also suffer a much stronger DPS drop over their short-range variants, compared to turrets, since they don't have tracking to differentiate (and they fubared the damage application comparison for short versus long missiles).




might also be the delay of alpha damage from missiles
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#230 - 2013-12-23 05:22:28 UTC
Quote:
might also be the delay of alpha damage from missiles


Probably, but I'm pretty sure the 45-70% additional alpha doesn't hurt either...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2013-12-23 09:26:40 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Ok, needs to be said: Shooting HACs with torps is like shooting them with 1400 arty up close.
If youre doing either, you brought the WRONG tool for the job.

Missiles are fine.



welll

to be frank.... get a hac with AB on, but web it with a 3 webs ashimu and target paint it with 3 TP rapier. Andyour torps will do full damage :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#232 - 2013-12-23 12:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Ok, needs to be said: Shooting HACs with torps is like shooting them with 1400 arty up close.
If youre doing either, you brought the WRONG tool for the job.

Missiles are fine.



welll

to be frank.... get a hac with AB on, but web it with a 3 webs ashimu and target paint it with 3 TP rapier. Andyour torps will do full damage :P


I guess the right tool for the job would be the infamous 'long range torpedoes'? Or the other large size missile system that does apply great dps at maximum range...

Edit:That said high alpha has great synergy with PvP, PvE really does better with the opposite. I have to quote a buddy of mine in saying design-wise it should probably be the opposite of the current situation for the sake of PvP as it would add depth. Alpha is tempered by travel time, and is the insta-pop game more fun without working for it?
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#233 - 2013-12-23 16:25:02 UTC
interesting thread.

I apologise in advance that this may be slightly off topic (but related nonetheless). But from what i gather from this thread rockets are a decent weapon system and will do good dps whilst cruiser sized missiles and above are a bit meh? Is that the jist of it?

I only ask becuase ive been eyeing the vengeance for quite some time and im loathe to dedicate approx a years worth of skillpoints getting all the rocket support skills to V if rockets are actually meh aswell.

Thanks in advance.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#234 - 2013-12-23 17:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Bastion Arzi wrote:
interesting thread.

I apologise in advance that this may be slightly off topic (but related nonetheless). But from what i gather from this thread rockets are a decent weapon system and will do good dps whilst cruiser sized missiles and above are a bit meh? Is that the jist of it?

I only ask becuase ive been eyeing the vengeance for quite some time and im loathe to dedicate approx a years worth of skillpoints getting all the rocket support skills to V if rockets are actually meh aswell.

Thanks in advance.


Good= Rockets, light missiles, cruise missiles.
Average and/or overspecialized: HAM. (the hull really makes HAM's.)
Shite and/or overspecialized: rlml, rhml.
Shite: HML.

As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time. The only exception to this are the small, and close range medium systems, due to faster payload delivery. Edit: Actually real poor tracking of lower signatures makes the small sized missile launchers the more potent ones too.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#235 - 2013-12-23 17:41:45 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
interesting thread.

I apologise in advance that this may be slightly off topic (but related nonetheless). But from what i gather from this thread rockets are a decent weapon system and will do good dps whilst cruiser sized missiles and above are a bit meh? Is that the jist of it?

I only ask becuase ive been eyeing the vengeance for quite some time and im loathe to dedicate approx a years worth of skillpoints getting all the rocket support skills to V if rockets are actually meh aswell.

Thanks in advance.


Good= Rockets, light missiles, cruise missiles.
Average and/or overspecialized: HAM. (the hull really makes HAM's.)
Shite and/or overspecialized: rlml, rhml.
Shite: HML.

As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time. The only exception to this are the small, and close range medium systems, due to faster payload delivery. Edit: Actually real poor tracking of lower signatures makes the small sized missile launchers the more potent ones too.

You forgot torps, which only go in the average class when om bomber hulls.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#236 - 2013-12-23 20:10:22 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time.
That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong. You can say that missile travel time is bad for sniping (that's why the Naga don't have missiles BTW), but you just can't say it for pvp as a whole as there have been countless proofs of the contrary over the past few years.

Damn there even was a Caracal doctrine in null with RLML when LM are the slowest LR missiles.

So stop with this legend please.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#237 - 2013-12-23 20:35:01 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time.
That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong. You can say that missile travel time is bad for sniping (that's why the Naga don't have missiles BTW), but you just can't say it for pvp as a whole as there have been countless proofs of the contrary over the past few years.

Damn there even was a Caracal doctrine in null with RLML when LM are the slowest LR missiles.

So stop with this legend please.

Didn't people predict raven and typhoon doctrines before the cruise missile buff? And look where we aee now.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#238 - 2013-12-23 20:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time.
That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong. You can say that missile travel time is bad for sniping (that's why the Naga don't have missiles BTW), but you just can't say it for pvp as a whole as there have been countless proofs of the contrary over the past few years.

Damn there even was a Caracal doctrine in null with RLML when LM are the slowest LR missiles.

So stop with this legend please.


I said right in my post what the exceptions are. Repeating what I said in a negative tone does not change that. Especially when making examples of the missile types I call out to be, the exceptions to this issue. These drakes you speak of are of a past long gone fitting the narrowest engagement profile in history. Everything in your post I have addressed. I really feel like 'that homeless guy staring off into oblivion talking to himself' when I reply to your posts. Take the effort to reread my post and you will find me agreeing on most things. Except for the drake which was never the 'go to boat' for everything. It was OP in blobs, and was starting to see counters shortly before they and the 'HML' got nerfed into oblivion. Don't turn that into me saying drakes didn't need nerfed.

Edit: The exception didn't include cruise missiles, but I had hoped that me noting them as "good" would be clear enough.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2013-12-23 22:08:20 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
I really feel like 'that homeless guy staring off into oblivion talking to himself' when I reply to your posts.


this made me LOL
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#240 - 2013-12-23 22:44:02 UTC
Quote:
to be frank.... get a hac with AB on, but web it with a 3 webs ashimu and target paint it with 3 TP rapier. Andyour torps will do full damage :P


Only if you're using T1, faction, or Javelin torps. Rage torps still won't do full damage (it'll cap at around 70% on a triple-painted HAC, even a stationary one).

And that's with maximum skills. Even the bomber bonus doesn't help that, since it increases the explosion velocity rather than decreasing the explosion radius.

Honestly, it's that stupid sig radius term that's the issue. Leave the sig/velocity term alone, but remove the ceiling on the damage of SigRad/ExpRad. It doesn't exist on turrets, and it serves only to gimp missiles unnecessarily.