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Fix the economy

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Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-09-22 13:49:02 UTC
Significantly higher hisec fees and taxes are a great idea, but not because of some ill-conceived inflationary bugaboo.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-09-22 15:17:47 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Significantly higher hisec fees and taxes are a great idea, but not because of some ill-conceived inflationary bugaboo.

Agreed. If you live in empire space, you should pay all kind of taxes, thats how empires work. If you dont like it, go to null and make your own little kingdom.

As for the OP, im not sure how proposed increased prices for null sov is gonna fix entire eve economy. Are you seriously suggesting that null players should be the only one to pay?

I havent seen any metrics lately (i wasnt looking though), but as i remember only about 10% of eve population live in null sec. The rest are high-sec dwellers, and im pretty sure they are doing something in their time that brings ISK into the game.
So maybe we should ask money sinks for them? Seeing how their contribution to inflation is probably larger that of null sec residents.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#23 - 2013-09-23 10:06:29 UTC
Red Templar wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Significantly higher hisec fees and taxes are a great idea, but not because of some ill-conceived inflationary bugaboo.

Agreed. If you live in empire space, you should pay all kind of taxes, thats how empires work. If you dont like it, go to null and make your own little kingdom.

As for the OP, im not sure how proposed increased prices for null sov is gonna fix entire eve economy. Are you seriously suggesting that null players should be the only one to pay?

I havent seen any metrics lately (i wasnt looking though), but as i remember only about 10% of eve population live in null sec. The rest are high-sec dwellers, and im pretty sure they are doing something in their time that brings ISK into the game.
So maybe we should ask money sinks for them? Seeing how their contribution to inflation is probably larger that of null sec residents.


No no no, see we need still more disincentives to live in sov 0.0, it's not quite terrible enough yet.

Then when it's finally abandoned, people will stop reading about EVE in the news, the human players will all leave and the bots can mine veldspar in perfect silent peace of cold empty space.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Oswaldos
Shore Leave Inc.
Greater Domain Cooperative
#24 - 2013-09-23 20:58:03 UTC
Bottom up funding for null alliances (I.E. alliance tax) + more mineral sinks in null sec (destroyable stations / gates / structures etc) would solve most of the problems with null sec.. Then couple that with...

Taxes increase taxes for reprocessing at NPC stations. The extra isk sink would be passed on to everybody so the miners wouldn't exactly be hurt.

My 2 Cents
Naj Panora
The Seekers of Ore
#25 - 2013-09-28 04:42:33 UTC
Red Templar wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Significantly higher hisec fees and taxes are a great idea, but not because of some ill-conceived inflationary bugaboo.

Agreed. If you live in empire space, you should pay all kind of taxes, thats how empires work. If you dont like it, go to null and make your own little kingdom.

As for the OP, im not sure how proposed increased prices for null sov is gonna fix entire eve economy. Are you seriously suggesting that null players should be the only one to pay?

I havent seen any metrics lately (i wasnt looking though), but as i remember only about 10% of eve population live in null sec. The rest are high-sec dwellers, and im pretty sure they are doing something in their time that brings ISK into the game.
So maybe we should ask money sinks for them? Seeing how their contribution to inflation is probably larger that of null sec residents.


Not saying Null players are the only ones. Null would just be a starting point. Again This is meant to fuel discussion and get Ideas on paper.

My targeting of Null sec is based on how much isk a system can generate vs. how much it costs to maintain. Thinking and kicking more ideas around if we don't want to make it a number of system based price system for increasing how much isk it cost to maintain more systems how about requiring all sov holding alliances to declare a "Home system". Every system that has a gate to that system costs the same as the current prices are set for each jump past that price to maintain a system goes up between 5 and 15%.

Ok now lets look back at high sec. I like the station tax idea. It would need a few tweeks. One thing I would suggest is to halve the tax rate for corps that have office in a given station. Also maybe have the tax rate adjust depending on how many players dock per hour not sure if this idea would really work or just drive prices up more because of station traders.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-09-28 05:08:15 UTC
Terrible ideas to address an imaginary problem...par for the course around here.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Naj Panora
The Seekers of Ore
#27 - 2013-09-29 03:08:09 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Terrible ideas to address an imaginary problem...par for the course around here.


Pretty sure it's not imaginary but you are entitled to your opinion.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-09-29 03:38:11 UTC
That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#29 - 2013-10-05 02:55:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Red Templar wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Significantly higher hisec fees and taxes are a great idea, but not because of some ill-conceived inflationary bugaboo.

Agreed. If you live in empire space, you should pay all kind of taxes, thats how empires work. If you dont like it, go to null and make your own little kingdom.

As for the OP, im not sure how proposed increased prices for null sov is gonna fix entire eve economy. Are you seriously suggesting that null players should be the only one to pay?

I havent seen any metrics lately (i wasnt looking though), but as i remember only about 10% of eve population live in null sec. The rest are high-sec dwellers, and im pretty sure they are doing something in their time that brings ISK into the game.
So maybe we should ask money sinks for them? Seeing how their contribution to inflation is probably larger that of null sec residents.

No no no, see we need still more disincentives to live in sov 0.0, it's not quite terrible enough yet.

Then when it's finally abandoned, people will stop reading about EVE in the news, the human players will all leave and the bots can mine veldspar in perfect silent peace of cold empty space.

I thought highsec would be warm.

After we remove the gankers

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
brinelan
#30 - 2013-12-16 21:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: brinelan
Varius Xeral wrote:
Significantly higher hisec fees and taxes are a great idea, but not because of some ill-conceived inflationary bugaboo.


This plus remove perfect refine in all empire refineries. They should be equal to or slightly lower percentage as the worse player built outpost refinery. If players have to fight for the space, hold sov then build an outpost it should be better then anything that is gifted by the game in hisec.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-12-19 04:58:16 UTC
Naj Panora wrote:
Crasniya wrote:
Naj, the problem is, it only costs a billion ISK to make another alliance. Then you just get Goons 2.0, Goons 3.0, and Goons 4.0, each holding 5-10 systems. Over time, the alliances pay for themselves. A design so easily exploited is a bad design.



That is fine because it will diffuse the isk over several entities which sooner or later one will want better systems and the wars will start anew. We have too many fat cats with too much isk. Now with this model there will be a ton of changes to capitals that will need done. Inflation is ok but Eve's is out of control.

it wont be diffused over several entities, and they wotn eb at war, Goons 1.0 will still be the leadership, goons 2.0 and onwards will also be Goons, conenc ted through coalition and forums, so they will be no more likely to fight or horde resources from eachother than individual corps within goonswarm as it is now
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#32 - 2013-12-22 15:41:27 UTC
Am I seeing a member of an alliance with no SOV. tell SOV. holders what would happen if X was the system in nullsec?
I'm sorry buddy, you're probably wrong on any/all accounts.

Inflation, to a degree, is a good thing (Steady inflation around 0-3%, for example), nullsec income is mostly on-par with high-sec (And scales TERRIBLY in comparison to missions), and SOV. costs are high enough.
Did you have any other points?

Smile
Kate 'on
DevonCorp
#33 - 2013-12-22 22:40:45 UTC
Naj Panora wrote:
We need some serious overhaul to how isk is removed from the game. Sov doesn't cost enough for large alliances to make a difference (goons have proven this), market fees are laugh able. This isk gained vs removed ratio is way out of wack and needs fixed before any other part of eve otherwise that will be the eve killer.


The best thing to do is think things through... think concequences, how any changes you make change the rest of the game, who will be the winners, and who will be the losers, then talk about it on the forums.

then, theres what you've done. Ive seen 3 year olds do it rather effectively, scream 'i want' without a clue wht you're asking for, until mom gets you your toy, then realize you didn't even want it
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2014-01-05 20:04:12 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

I thought highsec would be warm.

After we remove the gankers


blood is warm.
ganking distributes blood over space warming it up.
once the blood stops flowing it will get colder in space.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-01-09 17:05:16 UTC
Naj Panora wrote:
This isk gained vs removed ratio is way out of wack and needs fixed before any other part of eve otherwise that will be the eve killer.


Oh, really?

Fascinating.

Taken from the CSM 8 August 2013 Minutes:

Quote:
Overall, the money supply is evening out-- changes to systems have reduced the ISK supply, so average ISK in active wallets is stable as of November 2012 and the maximum amount may even be peaking. While Mike points out that the leveling-out at the top of the graph is very short, Dr. EyjoG responded that it was the first plateau visible at all. Sinks and faucets are fairly balanced right now, with a bit more faucet than sink to allow for economic growth.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-01-10 18:42:30 UTC
Dr Eyjo's talks were anticipated joyfully by almost all the attendees to the summit.

It may not give you hints of what is to come but seeing so much of what has happened in the past does put things in perspective.

(especially if you are a math teacher and love well done graphs)

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#37 - 2014-01-11 01:18:08 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Dr Eyjo's talks were anticipated joyfully by almost all the attendees to the summit.

It may not give you hints of what is to come but seeing so much of what has happened in the past does put things in perspective.

(especially if you are a math teacher and love well done graphs)

m
Maths and Economics aficionados as well.
Just sayin'.
And pol.sci. or any of the other more "systemic/bureaucratic" social sciences.

EVE economics, it's spreadsheets with AWESOME attached.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#38 - 2014-01-14 00:53:26 UTC
I honestly cannot remember where I heard this (Google fu you have failed me so) but I'm pretty sure EVEs economy is being used as a simulation to help make predictions for real world economic forcasts. Economics, more interesting than you might think.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Michael Mach
Arx One
#39 - 2014-01-15 15:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Mach
mynnna wrote:
Naj Panora wrote:

[quote=Naj Panora]This isk gained vs removed ratio is way out of wack


[Citation Needed]


Have you not seen how rapidly the value of ISK is inflating?

I'm not advocating more ISK sinks, but his statement is at least somewhat valid.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-01-22 08:55:26 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:

Yeah goons would make goons1 goons2 so on and so forth. However, the administrative overhead of management and control would increase. There would be more opportunity for differences of opinion to emerge. Different tax rates would emerge, there would be different policies on how to deal with different things. Some goon groups would have more resources than others, this would create some tension.


If we ran things like your average pubbie would then sure, but we don't run things that way.

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