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It's the screw up with the tariff rates that have most of us peeved (combined with the hi-sec COs having too low of a rate so that lo-sec POCOs won't be able to compete).

A rational tariff scheme (based on the input/output ratios between the tiers would be roughly) as follows. This would give you approximately the same "percentage of market value" across the board.

P0:P1 - always 150:1 ratio
P1:P2 - always 16:1 ratio
P2:P3 - is either 6.67:1 or 10:1 ratio (go with 8.5:1 as a middle ground)
P3:P4 - is between 12:1 and 16:1 ratio (call it 15:1 on average)

P0 tariff = 1x the P0 tariff
P1 tariff = 150x the P0 tariff (currently set to 1/10th of the P0 tariff)
P2 tariff = 2400x the P0 tariff (currently set to 18x the P0 tariff)
P3 tariff = 20400x the P0 tariff (currently only 1200x)
P4 tariff = 306000x the P0 tariff (currently only 100000x)

A more nuanced tariff scheme would be to slightly reduce the tariff ratio at each level. The advantage here is that as you go up through the tiers, you pay slightly less in "percentage of market value". It would reward (even more) taking products up to a higher PI level before exporting them.

P0 tarrif = 1x
P1 tariff = 140x
P2 tariff = 2000x
P3 tariff = 15000x
P4 tariff = 200000x

As an example of what those nuanced tariff multipliers would look like if CCP says that we should pay about 100k to export P4 in hi-sec.

P0 - 0.50 ISK/u
P1 - 70 ISK/u
P2 - 1000 ISK/u
P3 - 7500 ISK/u
P4 - 100k ISK/u

The bottom end of P1 would have to rise a lot (especially the cheap stuff like Bacteria, Biofuels) instead of 130-190 you'd have to price those at 200-260. The upper-ends wouldn't be as effected, rising from 450-800 up to 550-900.

P2 prices would go up slightly. The lower end P2s would go from 4000-6000 up to 5000-7000. The upper end P2s are around 9000-11000 and would go up to 10000-12000 (about a 10% bump).

P3 prices would change a bit, but not terribly much. The 40-50k items would go up to 47k-60k, the 50-60k band would go up to 58k-68k.

P4 prices would go up about 50k across the board (which was already going to happen anyway).

The exact tariffs would depend on what CCP says is the final value (combined with the POCO owner), but using either set of ratios would make those final tariff values much more balanced across the tiers. At 70 ISK/u (the magical "10%" number?) a lo-sec PI harvest colony would probably produce between 250k and 500k ISK/day in tariff fees. Get a dozen PI colonies running on that planet and you're up into the realm of a lo-sec POCO almost being able to pay itself off in a month.

I have only one concern. Do we get all SP spend in planetary, back to pool? Because I spend a lot of time leveling my planetary skills to level 5 on 9 characters. I don't have any further plans to do PI anymore. You do plan change it from the bone, so give me back my SP spend in it.


BTW: POCOs is bad idea. PI need change by improving ****** interface. It is click-fest, dum UI with no brain.

OK, I have been waiting until I got caught up with this thread (now series of threads), but it's clear that's never happening.

CCP Omen, with all respect and sympathy, it's clear you don't know what you're doing. That's not criticism; it's a fact of life we sometimes find ourselves in when we take on challenging jobs. The key is to recognize the situation and respond accordingly.

Some of the ways you can do something about by paying close attention to these threads. I'll summarize some of those.

Some of them -- like the economic impact -- so much depend on player behavior that they're beyond prediction and analysis. It's NOT going to be enough to just say "we'll keep an eye on it and fix it". You stand a good chance of getting yourself into a whole chain of "fixes" that progressively make things worse.

You REALLY, REALLY want to avoid that.

Clearly, your expectations about how things will play out in Wormholes are not based on the realities of living in wormholes. Nobody, who has even the slightest clue, is going to set a WH CO to allow access by the public. You might find a few confused souls, but they won't last long, and they won't make money doing it, because they will have no *friendly* customers. (They might do it rather than set their co-habitants standings, but that'll just be clumsiness).

For me, the biggest single problem with this, is its orientation around corporations. You seem to think all corporations are like these massive swarms of goons, all doing the same things -- or single player corporations. There's a whole world out here of corporations of people who want to stay together -- yet do a lot of their own stuff, as well.

I've done a *lot* of losec planetary work -- deep in losec, in fact. Your proposals are so incredibly biased toward huge conglomerates, it is truely scary. You could, literally overnight, render all of losec as an uneconomic wasteland for players like myself.

You would completely eliminate solo ninja WH operators as well.

So here's my advice:

1. You say you don't have time pressure. You are wrong. You do not have nearly enough time to sort out and discuss the issues and come up with a workable plan for the Winter Expansion. Put it off until Summer, to give yourself time to do it right. This will make the difference between success and a lingering, burning failure.
2. Don't give up. There's potential here, but you're going to need to rework the ideas considerably.
3. Do NOT allow POCOs to set themselves up to not allow others. That is too large a change, and unnecessary. And that, more than anything, is what hands economic power to the huge conglomerates, allowing them to access vast resources risk-free, while denying them to all the smaller operators.
4. Do *NOT* tie the BPCs to LPs. These are too economically central, and this puts them out of reach to those, such as WH residents, who don't get LPs. In all the time I've played, I have yet to buy a single thing from the LP store, and have very few LPs, and chasing LPs is completely disconnected with anything I actually do.
5. Fix the pricing model for POCOs, and simplify the process. If you want people to actually do this, you need to reduce the barriers. The ratio of potential grief to potential gain is WAY out of line.
6. Make them launchable for either player or corporation. You should be ENCOURAGING individual initiative, not stifling it. In fact, NOTHING should be out of reach, for game mechanic reasons, of the individual player. I'd even like wallet and hanger divisions! You're going the wrong direction, empowering corporations -- especially large ones -- while disempowering the individual. Way to make the game boring...
7. Introduce it slowly.I'd suggest starting in hisec -- let the higher tax rate drive people toward losec. Then hit nullsec, learn, WH's, learn, and finally, losec.
8. Give people an out. Currently, the launch capability of command centers is not even remotely useful for serious production use. I use it occasionally when away to buy time,but you cannot manage a planet with serious production capability that way, and you cannot run a factory planet. So OK, maybe the downlink has to go through the CO, but make the uplink into a viable alternative.
9. Do NOT give detailed information about my activities to the CO owner. Roll it up on a weekly basis or something. I'd rather not even give my identity. If he wants to try to hunt me down, don't hand my schedule to him on a platter. Make him actually work for it.. Don't turn it into a lazy pirate's alternative to a gate camp. "Where" is already a known; don't hand out "who what where" to go with it.

I would seriously look at investing (personally -- I'm not leaving my corp to do it!) in COs, were they adjusted to be a reasonable business proposition. Or let others invest, and continue to do PI, if you don't destroy my business model.

Presently, I foresee a scenario where COs get cleared out for the heck of it, but it's not worth anybody's investment to invest in them. Some get built for private use, by those large and powerful enough to defend them, who then end up controlling the entire economy.

In fact, according to the old stories, this is exactly the sort of thing that the Occupy movement was about back on Old Terra. Do we have to #OccupyJita to keep you from crashing our economy and throwing us out of work?

7 days till PI doomsday. :-(

Thanks tons CCP, can you break mining next?

Issler

I see an oppertunity for a new shipclass:

O.R.E. Planet Extractor

Role orbital planet resource extractor (deepspace version of an oil platfrom)

origanly build as a way to extract planet recources in unknown pace, but frequently used by smuglers to extract planet resourses without paying taxes.

maybe even in different versions bigger to smaller bays/abillity to extract against better hidability for instance.

This would make it possile for small corps to keep involved in PI, keeps it possible to ninja wormholes, and let wormholes/ and deeper low sec area's function without the need of a custom office.

After every downtime a POCO owner should get a message/Warning a person is smuggling recourses from his planet.

Maybe even something as a loosing standing.

It also give's the POCO owners a reason to accept people on their planets.

1) more people on a planet makes the chance smaller you'll be picked to be stripped
2) People on your planet, earns you more then being stripped.

In the end we need a ship that is able to drop and take people / machinery on planets anyway, how will those Dust dudes get on the planet otherwise....Hmmm that leaves room for Racial dropships as well.

Oh and for the fear that this would prevent any POCO's from being purchased, a POCO is probably cheaper, it makes more money from stuff you didn't extract, it will not be as easy to destroy as a ship.

As for people that want to point out this game is about playing with/against other people. I think this will actualy bring people to interact more than shutting down planets as whole.

Archh how stupid of me: edited

erm.... with the current isk/LP raito of 500 the total cost is not realy much getting lowered dont u think?

* put the BPO on the market for the same price of course to make it for us WAY easier for all of us
* add a 2min self destruct timer on that NPC CO to saves us hitting 10M points and and a lot of time
* and let us pay (way cheaper tyvm) for the upgrade instead let us change the pi production tree to get it upgraded

/edit
ow wait, its a copy @ LP store, u sure know how to make PI more expensive.

Couldn't agree with you more - once again way to go CCP - even more subscribers out the window - including me!
FFS stop moving the damn goal posts and shooting yourself in the foot.

Not that this has anything to do with the customs office, but i would really like to see some way of moving the extractor heads all at once if desired. its a real pain to reposition all the heads individually.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Customs Office Wiki is up