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I Hate To Burst Your Bubble, But...
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ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2011-11-22 18:17:38 UTC
Jenn Makanen wrote:


Those would be the laws of physics that say no matter travelling faster than the speed of light?

And that's how you easily identify a stupid argument about science fiction.


You mean the laws of physics that are even as we speak put into question as neutrinos are being found to travel FASTER than the speed of light?

Dodixie > Hek
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2011-11-22 18:27:53 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
The point is there is no point ('point' being the cool way to say web/scram - your drug of choice.) There is no flypaper, but for out-maneuvering and out-fighting your opponent.
There are plenty of points, most in the form of proper use of the geography and landscape, and others in the form of static traps. The French got bubbled and webbed hard at Agincourt and then had their hordes of killwhores summarily blown up by repeated alpha strikes.
Quote:
AND, if you fail to cutoff their line of retreat, you get to face them again, later.
Yes. So why do you want to remove that outcome from the game?
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#103 - 2011-11-22 18:29:18 UTC
the demand for the removal of bubbles is just the tears of those without the sense to deal with them.

Half the idiots using them have no idea how to do so effectively, and most of the idiots getting stuck in them do so by their own negligence.

and I hate to tell you, but a point is a 20km bubble that can only target 1 ship at a time, its the same thing, it prevents you warping away

it does not however prevent you from withdrawing from the AOE of the bubble and escaping.
You cite real world military tactics in your lengthy screed and then make the mistake of comparing ground-based warfare to 360 degree space combat.

on the battle field the enemy has limited routes of escape, determined by position and terrain, if you block that route or routes, you gain the upper hand and effectively hold the enemy on the field.

in eve that escape route can be in any direction and is not affected by terrain, only places to warp to, so the bubble is an excellent mechanism to make up for the fact that unless pointed a ship can disengage at will.

Next time don't warp your failfleet into a bubble, that's why you have scouts
Serene Repose
#104 - 2011-11-22 18:32:26 UTC
Morganta wrote:
the demand for the removal of bubbles is just the tears of those without the sense to deal with them.

Half the idiots using them have no idea how to do so effectively, and most of the idiots getting stuck in them do so by their own negligence.
So kind of you to tell us all what we already know. It's poignant how you failed to address the OP...or was it intentional obfuscation? Either way, thanks for the refresher course. Maybe one day you'll have something to add to the discussion.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Danica Duan
#105 - 2011-11-22 22:51:20 UTC
OP doesn't like space tar pits.

Terrain that has been deliberately modified to be unfavorable to an opponent is a valid tactic in RL warfare and in Eve. Bubbles are not impossible to retreat from, they are simply difficult to retreat from.
Jita Alt666
#106 - 2011-11-22 23:20:49 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Morganta wrote:
the demand for the removal of bubbles is just the tears of those without the sense to deal with them.

Half the idiots using them have no idea how to do so effectively, and most of the idiots getting stuck in them do so by their own negligence.
So kind of you to tell us all what we already know. It's poignant how you failed to address the OP...or was it intentional obfuscation? Either way, thanks for the refresher course. Maybe one day you'll have something to add to the discussion.


Serene: perhaps you didn't read the rest of the post (the part you didn't quote). Just in case you missed it here it goes here:

Quote:
You cite real world military tactics in your lengthy screed and then make the mistake of comparing ground-based warfare to 360 degree space combat.

on the battle field the enemy has limited routes of escape, determined by position and terrain, if you block that route or routes, you gain the upper hand and effectively hold the enemy on the field.

in eve that escape route can be in any direction and is not affected by terrain, only places to warp to, so the bubble is an excellent mechanism to make up for the fact that unless pointed a ship can disengage at will.

Next time don't warp your failfleet into a bubble, that's why you have scouts


Please read the bolded, underlined, italicised part, then please explain how he fails to address the OP, when he directly refers to the Op's post.

Roll
Jenshae Chiroptera
#107 - 2011-11-23 00:32:14 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Since the inception of warfare a single goal of every field commander is to defeat the enemy in detail - to, in one decisive battle, destroy an enemy's ability to fight and so conclude a war unquestionably. ...


I skimmed it as I am off to bed, however, :


  • Warp bubbles can be avoid.
  • HiCs can be shot.
  • You need to see more videos, I have seen fleets work their way out of a retreat.
  • We need to have a way to block people as much as I hate this mechanic. (Think of it as drawing up your forces into lines and stopping the enemies passing.)
  • It is a game.
  • These are volunteers you are dealing with and not paid soldier defending an ideal.
  • You are working against the general public who need easily understood toys.
  • Watch Rooks and Kings closely to see the sneaky stuff they get up to and the tactics. I am impressed.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#108 - 2011-11-23 08:18:39 UTC
Oh, I saw an interesting video - How To Properly Set Up A Bubble To Trap Everyone Leaving A Station. Set up the bubble with half a dozen ships ready to pound whomever leaves the station. I thought it was rather...unchallenging....to say the least.

How does anyone get from my OP that I'm saying there are no countermeasures? I didn't say that at all. Maybe we have mind readers who think they can read between the lines and see "what this person is really saying." We used to call those "washer women". I can say quite plainly what I want. Had I wanted to say, "There's nothing we can do, and it's cheating!" There...see that? I found every key. That's not what I said though, so everyone who's responded as though that is what's being said was WRONG. Guess again.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#109 - 2011-11-23 10:48:25 UTC
Its difficult and sometimes dangerous to draw analogies between EVE and real world warfare. Generalist arguments can work and I can think of numerous examples of how the thoughts of Clausewitz can be applied to the conflicts of EVE in broad terms.

The detailed mechanics however are a different story.

Warp bubbles define a 'battlefield' - an area of physical space which delays or outright prevents a withdrawl. For the most part within modern RL warfare its not possible for a force to instantly remove itself from the range of the vast majority of battlefield weapons - whereas you can within EVE by warping off. A crude analogy would be to imagine the German Army vanishing from Stalingrad during WWII (erk! this was a bad idea! retreat!!!) within seconds or hours.

On that basis warp bubbles serve to counter the near magical properties that EVEs ships have to travel extreme distances in extremely compressed periods of time.

What is perhaps more problematic is the use of cynos - which in effect turn this process on its head and allow force to travel towards a target over long distances of space in compressed periods of time. Using the analogy from earlier this is the equivalent of the Russian forces leaving the motherland and arriving outside Berlin in seconds.

The reason why the reverse is more problematic resolves around force multipliers such as the element of surprise and concentration of force which are outside the OPs original post but worth consideration.

C.
Vyl Vit
#110 - 2011-11-24 14:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
Cailais wrote:
The detailed mechanics however are a different story.

Warp bubbles define a 'battlefield' - an area of physical space which delays or outright prevents a withdrawl. For the most part within modern RL warfare its not possible for a force to instantly remove itself from the range of the vast majority of battlefield weapons - whereas you can within EVE by warping off. A crude analogy would be to imagine the German Army vanishing from Stalingrad during WWII (erk! this was a bad idea! retreat!!!) within seconds or hours.


But, that's the point. Germany had to live with its mistakes. In particular they abandoned the original strategy of Barbarossa, broke their lines and fixated on taking the city of Stalin's namesake for the morale boost, or loss to Russia. It was a fatal mistake and they paid the price for it. More to the point, your warp bubble would have prevented the Russian encirclement allowing Germany to escape!
Cailais wrote:

On that basis warp bubbles serve to counter the near magical properties that EVEs ships have to travel extreme distances in extremely compressed periods of time.
This point is invalid as it is the nature of the terrain. All ships have this technology. It is likely the same technology the aggressor used to reach the field. Knowing this is part of the terrain means it has to be part of the plan. In other words, the very nature of this technology is to deprive the enemy of the swift stroke, unless it's obtained by their opponent's blunder - which would then be called the aggressor's better mastery of battle. So, planning warfare in this environment requires LONG TERM planning and LONG TERM engagement. As was said early on (as a mistaken argument FOR warp bubbles) attrition is the name of modern warfare, not final victory in one battle - UNLESS the enemy is intent on that battle as well and commits fully to it. Stranger things have happened.
Cailais wrote:

What is perhaps more problematic is the use of cynos - which in effect turn this process on its head and allow force to travel towards a target over long distances of space in compressed periods of time. Using the analogy from earlier this is the equivalent of the Russian forces leaving the motherland and arriving outside Berlin in seconds.
So, you're saying EVE players are using advanced technology in a primitive way. They're using last century's tactics in a century's ahead environment. Unable to adapt to that, they require a crutch, i.e. the warp bubble.
Cailais wrote:

The reason why the reverse is more problematic resolves around force multipliers such as the element of surprise and concentration of force which are outside the OPs original post but worth consideration.

It's kind of difficult to surprise anyone when everyone appears in Local. The same proves true for concentration of force. The fact is, this technology was developed...and it may be a game now, but it's certainly dreamed of real world...to circumvent perceived shortcomings of the analog age. And, it's (would be) quite effective. That would mean a new way of visualizing war, and new realistic expectations of battle are in order, not a catch-all relief from solving the problems that obviously arise.

The warp bubble is a crutch. Sorry, but there it is.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#111 - 2011-11-24 14:47:06 UTC
Confirming warp bubbles have 90% web strength and deploy by themselves. thus stopping anybody that enters them by sheer will of their own presence.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#112 - 2011-11-24 14:48:55 UTC
OH and Pok, I remember your doctrine of why EVE PVP was completely flawed and how you would have nothing to do with it. Why are you still here if not to troll. I'm going to go ahead and block you now before I have to read any more rubbish.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#113 - 2011-11-24 14:51:02 UTC
I was blocked by Lady Spank! And, I thought I'd have to wait for Christmas for Santa Claus!

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Damon Blood
Back Alley Abortion Clinic
#114 - 2011-11-24 16:39:36 UTC
I find it amusing that the OP managed to get 6 pages of people arguing over if a INTERWEBS SPACESHIP VIDEO GAME is realistic with today's MODERN RL WARFARE!!

When is the last time one of our soldiers of Earth took a spin around neptune in his Crow and destroyed a martian invader?Blink


OP Success..9/10
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#115 - 2011-11-25 02:49:40 UTC
Damon Blood wrote:
I find it amusing that the OP managed to get 6 pages of people arguing over if a INTERWEBS SPACESHIP VIDEO GAME is realistic with today's MODERN RL WARFARE!!

When is the last time one of our soldiers of Earth took a spin around neptune in his Crow and destroyed a martian invader?Blink


OP Success..9/10

Thursday....thanks for the nine.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.