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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3581 - 2013-12-21 06:15:10 UTC
Medium Missile Launchers
Here's a solution that might address the issue: the introduction of a medium missile launcher and medium missiles. Damage, application and range falls somewhere between the current light and heavy missiles, and we buff heavy missiles by 10% to the pre-nerf values. Fitting requirements would be on par with the rapid light missile launchers. This gives the Drakes a bit more "oomph" (which they're sorely lacking), and provides an alternative to rapid light launchers (these will do less overall DPS, but more consistently). I used a +25% damage bonus, +25% rate of fire bonus, V skills, T2 launchers, Faction ammunition and 3x ballistic controls. Comments welcome.

Medium Missile Launchers

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3582 - 2013-12-21 08:46:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Medium Missile Launchers
Here's a solution that might address the issue: the introduction of a medium missile launcher and medium missiles. Damage, application and range falls somewhere between the current light and heavy missiles, and we buff heavy missiles by 10% to the pre-nerf values. Fitting requirements would be on par with the rapid light missile launchers. This gives the Drakes a bit more "oomph" (which they're sorely lacking), and provides an alternative to rapid light launchers (these will do less overall DPS, but more consistently). I used a +25% damage bonus, +25% rate of fire bonus, V skills, T2 launchers, Faction ammunition and 3x ballistic controls. Comments welcome.

Medium Missile Launchers


I'd rather they roll back the damage application portion of the heavy missile nerf (12% to explosion radius I believe it was) while going back to the original rapid launchers (with a hefty nerf to RLML ammo capacity and PWG needs). We don't need another missile weapon system to make things even more complicated. CCP clearly can't handle what we already have.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3583 - 2013-12-21 09:28:48 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:

That's the thing I find so perplexing. RLMLs have been around for years yet they weren't dominating small gang and solo PVP on some massive scale.


Incorrect on 2 counts:
* They've been around for months.
* CCP's data suggested strongly that they were indeed dominating.


I wonder if the rise in RLML use began to appear after a major nerf to HM ?

So now; we have HM in a bad place and RLML in a niche place, leaving Caldari missile pilots with little to no choice.

Give back the old RLML with reduced capacity, 10 second reload and the 15-20% damage reduction mentioned in your post;
Quote:
CCP Rise
Please keep in mind that this change represents a 15-20% damage drop over long fights but offers a new advantage in trade
I don't want a weapon system with "advantage in trade" I want to use missiles the same way turret users do, IE; as I choose, not how CCP says.

RLML you have choices with; different damage types and ranges but all with 40 seconds downtime every 45 seconds = limited options on how the weapon is used = not fun for a lot of players.

Quote:
CCP Rise
This was motivated by the knowledge that if we simply lowered their damage output to achieve the first goal, they would be left feeling very unexciting even though they would still have value against small support.
I would rather have a weapon system balanced for sustained DPS, than a high DPS weapon with such limited usability.

Give missile users a choice - lower sustained DPS or the burst mechanic.

Official interest in this thread probably lapsed some 30 or 40 pages ago.
Regardless this is what 1 selfish missile pilot would like to see happen.


It seems to me that rlml was conceived because missile users were unhappy about not being able to easily kill frigates with a medium missile.

Of course that makes about as much sense as inventing a new gunnery system because I was unhappy about being unable to kill a frigate with a medium railgun.

If I made this complaint you might rightfully tell me to use a small rail gun instead.

The right tool for the job of killing a frigate is a light missile, a rocket, a light drone or a smart bomb. All of which a drake can fit

Of course drakes had trouble killing frigates with heavy missiles. They absolutely should!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3584 - 2013-12-21 10:04:50 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It seems to me that rlml was conceived because missile users were unhappy about not being able to easily kill frigates with a medium missile.

Of course that makes about as much sense as inventing a new gunnery system because I was unhappy about being unable to kill a frigate with a medium railgun.

If I made this complaint you might rightfully tell me to use a small rail gun instead.

The right tool for the job of killing a frigate is a light missile, a rocket, a light drone or a smart bomb. All of which a drake can fit

Of course drakes had trouble killing frigates with heavy missiles. They absolutely should!


1) Medium rail guns can kill frigs pretty well at range.

2) Drakes can't even kill cruisers efficiently with heavy missiles.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3585 - 2013-12-21 11:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It seems to me that rlml was conceived because missile users were unhappy about not being able to easily kill frigates with a medium missile.

Of course that makes about as much sense as inventing a new gunnery system because I was unhappy about being unable to kill a frigate with a medium railgun.

If I made this complaint you might rightfully tell me to use a small rail gun instead.

The right tool for the job of killing a frigate is a light missile, a rocket, a light drone or a smart bomb. All of which a drake can fit

Of course drakes had trouble killing frigates with heavy missiles. They absolutely should!


1) Medium rail guns can kill frigs pretty well at range.

2) Drakes can't even kill cruisers efficiently with heavy missiles.

Agreed..

In its hey day, the drake was a mighty force to be reckoned with. It needed to be brought into balance, instead it and heavy missiles were neutered. (sometimes it really does feel like I'm firing blanks)

RLML was created as an easy fix for the lack of a medium missile platform that could shoot smaller targets. Problem is it uses light missiles. Used in a light missile launcher they work just fine but put those same missiles in the RLML it becomes OP due to the damage application built into light missiles for light missile launchers. So instead of fixing the damage application problem, RLML was not completely neutered but it did have its most important asset removed, versatility.

Mournful, seriously now; A drake with light missiles or rockets?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3586 - 2013-12-21 11:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It seems to me that rlml was conceived because missile users were unhappy about not being able to easily kill frigates with a medium missile.

Of course that makes about as much sense as inventing a new gunnery system because I was unhappy about being unable to kill a frigate with a medium railgun.

If I made this complaint you might rightfully tell me to use a small rail gun instead.

The right tool for the job of killing a frigate is a light missile, a rocket, a light drone or a smart bomb. All of which a drake can fit

Of course drakes had trouble killing frigates with heavy missiles. They absolutely should!


1) Medium rail guns can kill frigs pretty well at range. Provided they are stationary or travelling directly at the cruiser and the cruiser itself has no self-induced transversal velocity (i.e. moving directly away from target or stationary).

2) Drakes can't even kill cruisers efficiently with heavy missiles.


One clarification inline in bold

As for point 2, this is correct. A Drake with heavy missiles is the wrong tool for the job. So I might argue that for this job, you might be better off choosing a different tool. Like a drake with light missile launchers, for instance. *

Further, it seems to me also that heavy missiles are uninspiring weapons. Previously they were overly powerful weapons. CCP have already mentioned that they will be looking into missile damage augmentation modules, and Rise has already alluded to the complexity of that (since cruise, HAMs and light missiles are already very fit for purpose).

It might be that heavy missiles need a little buff - they certainly don't need to be buffed to previous levels. No doubt the data in the server logs will tell the whole story when CCP get round to looking at it.

In the meantime, we can if we wish conduct our own tests. The logs on the client machine give complete information about damage application, and it's straightforward to create ships and set up scenarios to test damage application in a number of situations on the test server with some friends.

I don't think anyone yet has done this, so actually all arguments here are subjective and therefore valueless when trying to persuade the game designers in any one direction.

* There is a fundamental principle here. Eve pvp is a very complex realtime problem space. The combinations of fits and moves is incalculably large - possibly infinite. A 'standard' fit is not always the way to go. I do fit small guns to cruisers, and I fit medium guns to battleships when the situation demands it. I am certainly happy to give up DPS for a neutraliser, or depth of tank for better damage application.
I also fly heavy missile ships (on another account) when dual boxing, for example in a command ship such as the damnation or claymore, because missiles require less management than guns. I can just set the command ship to orbit the main and fire missiles when I remember to. Although they are an imperfect weapon system, they are adding value in that situation without distracting my attention from keeping the target pinned and my assault cruiser in one piece.

After about 18 months into this game, when I started to realise how to do PVP, I stopped thinking about 'balance' and 'fairness'. I started thinking about what is, and what can be done. I now realise that this approach is what wins fights and (more importantly to me) prevents losses.

The sooner followers of this thread can make this mental leap, the happier will be your game experience.



Sgt Ocker wrote:


Mournful, seriously now; A drake with light missiles or rockets?


Please tell me why the 300 sustained dps from this (very imperfect) ship will not kill a frigate. It has 77,000 ehp (before overheat) - 10x that of a frigate. It will easily kill 5 of them if they are stupid enough to be in web range. You could even dual-asb it. Then you could kill frigate swarms all day long. Open your mind, young Skywalker....

6x Light Missile Launcher II (Inferno Fury Light Missile)
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Large Shield Extender II

3x Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
2x Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

5x Hobgoblin II

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3587 - 2013-12-21 11:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...to kill cruisers...

Oh and Mournful it might help if you actually knew the bonuses of a ship before talking about it. A Drake has no bonuses for light missiles and can't pump out anywhere close to 300 DPS with them.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3588 - 2013-12-21 11:51:14 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...


No, you're being taught how to win.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3589 - 2013-12-21 11:54:32 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...


No, you're being taught how to win.


A light missile Drake is the opposite of win.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3590 - 2013-12-21 11:57:21 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...


No, you're being taught how to win.


A light missile Drake is the opposite of win.


You're arguing principles in a war where only results matter. That's a shortcut to an early grave in any enterprise - particularly eve.

Bonuses are there as bonuses, not constraints.

You've never seen a large-neut recon ship? a light blaster dominix? a smartbomb battleship?

Come on...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3591 - 2013-12-21 12:01:28 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...to kill cruisers...

Oh and Mournful it might help if you actually knew the bonuses of a ship before talking about it. A Drake has no bonuses for light missiles and can't pump out anywhere close to 300 DPS with them.


I fit small lasers on my maller, because I don't have good skills for medium turrets, fitting small lasers allows me to fit an enormous tank (50k EHP even with my skills), they have excellent tracking which surprises frigates who think they can kite under my guns, and I still get over 200 dps. It works well, I managed to get a few good kills with it, defended a lot of plexes and tbh I wouldn't laugh at the idea of a light missile drake either.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3592 - 2013-12-21 12:03:15 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...to kill cruisers...

Oh and Mournful it might help if you actually knew the bonuses of a ship before talking about it. A Drake has no bonuses for light missiles and can't pump out anywhere close to 300 DPS with them.


Please check your claim in EFT. You are mistaken sir.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3593 - 2013-12-21 12:03:20 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...


No, you're being taught how to win.


A light missile Drake is the opposite of win.


You're arguing principles in a war where only results matter. That's a shortcut to an early grave in any enterprise - particularly eve.

Bonuses are there as bonuses, not constraints.

You've never seen a large-neut recon ship? a light blaster dominix? a smartbomb battleship?

Come on...


You are suggesting anti-frig weapons on a Drake to fight cruisers. It won't work. It would only work against frigs and destroyers, and even then it would be incredibly underwhelming.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3594 - 2013-12-21 12:03:42 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
By the same token Vexors must be obsoleting destroyers as well , do you think we should stop allowing vexors to fit light drones. Since your so concerned about cruisers killing frigates do you think ccp should make it so that the scan resolution on turret ships makes a huge difference to their damage application, so that medium and large turrets can only ever hope to do a small fraction of their dps against frigates and destroyers.
Drones are a lot less dangerous than LM to frigates. As I said, you can kill them and they have a lot lower dps than RLML, old or new. A Vexor is a frigate killer, but outside of web range it's far less dangerous. At 3500m/s, you will outrun hobgobelins ; with faster drones, they will need to pulse their MWD to chase you and their dps will be less lower than optimal. A fully bonused set of warriors II with 2 DDA does 172dps, but while chasing you they will be lucky if they apply half of it. That's far lower than the 230dps of old RLML Caracal.

As for asking turrets to do less damage to lower classes ships, in fact, I do asked for it. I asked during the titan nerf some years ago to put a signature parameter separated from the tracking parameter in the turret formula for consistency with the usual explanation of how turrets works and to make smaller ships a lot less vulnerable to larger ones.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3595 - 2013-12-21 12:05:16 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...to kill cruisers...

Oh and Mournful it might help if you actually knew the bonuses of a ship before talking about it. A Drake has no bonuses for light missiles and can't pump out anywhere close to 300 DPS with them.


Please check your claim in EFT. You are mistaken sir.



My EFT says:

Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
10% bonus to kinetic damage of Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles

What does yours say?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3596 - 2013-12-21 12:08:18 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
My EFT says:

Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
10% bonus to kinetic damage of Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles

What does yours say?
What matter in a duel is your ehp*dps vs his ehp*dps. The winner is the one who kill the other before dying, not the one using all its bonuses. If you can't outgun your ennemy, you can still outtank it. The Drake always was about outtanking anything.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3597 - 2013-12-21 12:12:28 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...to kill cruisers...

Oh and Mournful it might help if you actually knew the bonuses of a ship before talking about it. A Drake has no bonuses for light missiles and can't pump out anywhere close to 300 DPS with them.


Please check your claim in EFT. You are mistaken sir.



My EFT says:

Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
10% bonus to kinetic damage of Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles

What does yours say?


it says this:

Volley Damage: 1,605.48
DPS: 290.46

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3598 - 2013-12-21 12:30:23 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
By the same token Vexors must be obsoleting destroyers as well , do you think we should stop allowing vexors to fit light drones. Since your so concerned about cruisers killing frigates do you think ccp should make it so that the scan resolution on turret ships makes a huge difference to their damage application, so that medium and large turrets can only ever hope to do a small fraction of their dps against frigates and destroyers.
Drones are a lot less dangerous than LM to frigates. As I said, you can kill them and they have a lot lower dps than RLML, old or new. A Vexor is a frigate killer, but outside of web range it's far less dangerous. At 3500m/s, you will outrun hobgobelins ; with faster drones, they will need to pulse their MWD to chase you and their dps will be less lower than optimal. A fully bonused set of warriors II with 2 DDA does 172dps, but while chasing you they will be lucky if they apply half of it. That's far lower than the 230dps of old RLML Caracal.

As for asking turrets to do less damage to lower classes ships, in fact, I do asked for it. I asked during the titan nerf some years ago to put a signature parameter separated from the tracking parameter in the turret formula for consistency with the usual explanation of how turrets works and to make smaller ships a lot less vulnerable to larger ones.


At those speeds even light missiles don't hit for fulll dps, Cruisers can kill frigates that's not unique to the Caracal and was never sufficient justification to nerf RLML, because both Vexors and Caracals can kill frigates, granted the RLML Caracal did it better, but the Vexor was better against everything else. Now the Vexor is better at killing frigates and better at everything else as well.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3599 - 2013-12-21 12:38:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...to kill cruisers...

Oh and Mournful it might help if you actually knew the bonuses of a ship before talking about it. A Drake has no bonuses for light missiles and can't pump out anywhere close to 300 DPS with them.


Please check your claim in EFT. You are mistaken sir.



My EFT says:

Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
10% bonus to kinetic damage of Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles

What does yours say?


it says this:

Volley Damage: 1,605.48
DPS: 290.46



With a third of your DPS coming from 5 unbonused drones that have no replacements, that number is flimsy in the extreme. And being a BC you'll have little ability to dictate fights, so have fun getting jumped by a cruiser gang in your anti-frig Drake. And no it is not a good option against cruisers. It would get rolled by any decent cruiser in the game. Oh and good luck using the tackle you stuck on it with your 175 m/s max speed.

I'm starting to feel trolled here...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3600 - 2013-12-21 12:45:00 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
This is a new low. We are now being told to fit light missile launcher to Drakes...to kill cruisers...

Oh and Mournful it might help if you actually knew the bonuses of a ship before talking about it. A Drake has no bonuses for light missiles and can't pump out anywhere close to 300 DPS with them.


Please check your claim in EFT. You are mistaken sir.



My EFT says:

Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
10% bonus to kinetic damage of Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles

What does yours say?


it says this:

Volley Damage: 1,605.48
DPS: 290.46



With a third of your DPS coming from 5 unbonused drones that have no replacements, that number is flimsy in the extreme. And being a BC you'll have little ability to dictate fights, so have fun getting jumped by a cruiser gang in your anti-frig Drake. And no it is not a good option against cruisers. It would get rolled by any decent cruiser in the game. Oh and good luck using the tackle you stuck on it with your 175 m/s max speed.

I'm starting to feel trolled here...


the proposition is an anti frigate ship. eve without drones it has 200dps and a neut and 77k ehp plus shield recharge.

no one said anything about fleets of cruisers. to fight them you need a different fit - called a fleet.

don't like my drake? I don't mind. would a raven do? or a prophecy?

it seems to me that you are determined to dislike the fit on idealistic grounds rather than those of actual game mechanics

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".