Skill Discussions

Bump, getting some likes here and there but no replies. Not dead entirely but no bumpage.

Ok, how do you mean? Your analyses is a bit short :P..

Respectfully though, I just did the math showing how you will spend more SP under just about any circumstance for equivalent launcher sizes. For example if you take your exact scenario, and this has all been explained in my primary post.
If you decide to go for cruise missiles, a missile skill that would not suffer from not maxing missile speed+flight time like 'short ranged missile systems all do' which saves SP.
That put aside, you can not realistically claim anyone will seriously fly techII cruise missiles with no other skills then 'missile launcher operations' at lvl1. You may rebut saying you can fly with lvl 3 support skills. But the tracking issues inherent to missiles require you to max out on 'guided missile precision&target navigation prediction' 5x&2x multipliers, do this and you can start on cruise missiles. You need target painting skills at 4, that alone would be a 5x multiplier. Total plus the 'cruise missile launcher' skill 12+5=17x multiplier. You want to duct tape and soldered wire through target painting(lvl 3) its 13x but it would make an unfair comparison.

With the same leniency towards gunnery you would have to train 'gunnery lvl5=1x, motion prediction lvl5=2x, medium hybrid lvl5=3x, small hybrid lvl5=1x, controlled bursts lvl4=0.4x' and you can tackle large blaster training. Total of 7.4+5 for large hybrids=12.4. You can't argue a minimalist skillset for BS hulls for all the obvious reasons so if you imagine every other skill at lvl 4 for each you will still come up short with missiles since they have a 21x multiplier total for support skills while you have only 1 techII weapon-type unlocked. For gunnery that number is 6 as well as support skills for 12 more not counting capital weapons. 12,4= a month 2 weeks and 1,2 or so days at optimal SP acquisition, a long range weapon system would add a 2x multiplier 14,4 against 17x for missile, furthermore for fairness sake I didn't compare to projectile weapons which are closest to missiles (capless, good damage selection), which happen to be far more SP efficient then both lasers and blasters. Edit: Looking over the numbers as shown in the bottom edit it is actually even less for gunnery).


This COMPLETELY ignores a natural progression for a newbie missile user who would train probably light missiles first, possibly HAML. Meanwhile essentially assuming they come into the game being FULLY aware of how to use their SP in the most efficient manner. While gunnery has a natural progression of small>medium>large, a missile beginner can completely screw himself getting lost in the woods, trying out different weapon systems that are a GIVEN for gunnery. NO possible way to be more SP efficient by skipping a launcher size. Also, if you opt to try a different weapon system you start all over. With gunnery you can go to other gunnery lines. This has all been spelled out tbh. But even at this minimalist comparison there is no comparison.

P.S. You don't need specs at 4 anymore, but any sane person would want them for missiles and gunnery in order to fly a BS. So I deem it to be irrelevant and returning us to the same overall issue of having more support skills and missile skills to train for astronomically less gain as gunnery. Edit: Looking at http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/license-to-kill-certificate-overhaul/?_ga=1.67599057.1736666949.1378305995
The large turrets actually only need lvl3 previous size turret basic skills, so medium and small hybrid 3 for blaster specialization. I should not be trying ot do this with kid aggro. But the I hope you get the picture.

It has always been easier as I have demonstrated in my initial post. Would you fly large blasters with nothing but 'gunnery' at lvl1 just because you can if you could do so tomorrow?

It is an absolute ridiculous argument and the fact it has never been blown out of the water in the first place is just a lack of basic mathematic understanding. As in 1+1=2. This one liner debate you are starting which I thought would be a rational comparative discussion is unbecoming.

How often do missiles miss?

It's not really fair to bunch target painting with missile skills since it isn't an absolute requirement for missiles. Yes some ships use them but not many. Most PVP and mission ships do not. There are a few exceptions such as the stealth bomber, Navy Scorpion, and Golem. Even with those examples only on the Golem would they be considered "required". On a stealth bomber some chose sensor damps.

I do agree with having to train a separate skill for the short and long range launchers is a disadvantage over gunnery but I don't think that's so huge to cause someone to pick guns over missiles.

Okay so I planned both out in Evemon. I planned all support skills to 5 and specializations to 4. Obviously the base skills were at 5 to train the specializations. I didn't plan the FOF, defender, or bomb launcher skills. Neither one relates to any of the gunnery skills, the first two are broken, and the last well really isn't a missile. It's just in that category since there's no other place to put it.


This is with a Per/WP remap and no implants.

Gunnery 186d 18h 46s

Missiles 211d 16h 57m 32s

Difference about 24 days (Too lazy to do the exact math)

Edit: This is for subcap skills only. Most pilots don't fly dreadnoughts so I wan't to keep it relevant.



So means missiles take about 24 days longer to train over gunnery for a skill plan that lasts 7 months. Yes there is a difference but it's not huge or overwhelming.

Everything in Eve doesn't have to be exactly the same. It's okay if one ship is slightly faster, one slightly tankier or one skill set to take slightly longer. Yes if missiles took twice as long you would have a serious gripe but you're talking about 24 days for skills that will last the life of your pilot.

Okay we're going to have to agree to disagree on target painting. I've run level 4 missions for years with the CNR and never used a target painter other than playing around to test it. I tested it and it didn't seem to help much at all. Of course my CNR was properly fit with rigor rigs and I have missile implants. I didn't want one when I flew my standard Raven because that would have cut into my tank. I didn't use them on my Drake or Caracal but I've never tried them back then either. Now I'm in a Golem with 3 painters and so far this is the only ship I can see that it makes a difference in. Of course it could be because it's the only one I've flown that has bonuses to target painting.


Okay to your second argument you're saying because there are three races of turrets and only one of missiles that missile support skills should be a third of the SP? That is about as reasonable as saying since there are three races of guns so the actual gun skills should be 1/3 so I could train all of them in the same time it takes to train all of the missile skills.

I don't see missile support skills being cut in 1/3 since they only support one race instead of three.

Bottom line is it takes about the 24 extra days to train missiles than guns. Over 7 months of training I don't see that as a huge difference. If you want to include target painting as a missile skill of course that number goes up.

Yes, I agree to disagree. I firmly believe target painting is an integral part of proper missile ship fitting for medium/large hulls. However I won't dismiss what works for you, maybe you feel like EFT'ing it or trying some painting action or maybe you won't, all up to you. That out of the way, I don't believe there should be a 1/3rd cost to missiles because of the Caldari theme. I believe it should be that way based on the amount of weapon-systems it unlocks. Which comes down to 1/3 of the amount all of gunnery unlocks (sub-capital that is). I don't know if you would argue that missiles are cross faction, but in case you would in that sense so are all gunnery systems. Hybrids more so, and lasers and projectiles on pirate faction hulls. Point being that investment is in the hull skills, not that you argued otherwise, just elaborating because I like reading my own words 'THAT' much ^^.

Yes it was changed, you can check the skill books in the market menu.