Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The Conservation of Momentum says that if you collide with an object 1,000 times your own mass, that the change in your velocity will be 1,000 times the change in the other objects velocity.

So a frigate with 1,000 kg mass and 2,000 m/s hitting head on a carrier with 1,000,000 kg mass at 100 m/s will only slow the carrier by 2 m/s if the collision brings the frigate to a complete stop. You read that right. The carrier only slows by 2 m/s.

Now there is a problem with MWD because it inherently draws on warp technology, it greatly increases the mass and velocity during a micro warp, and thus really messes up many other foundational laws of Physics (don't get me started about viscous space creating a speed limit, the subject of a separate thread). MWD appears to violate the Conservation of Momentum, but since it utilizes the warping of space, it is safe to ignore any collisions since it is traveling through warped space on a micro level.

The only topic of this thread is to change the mechanics so that this equation, foundational to all physics, is honored in Eve Online. I would gladly cover honoring the other foundational laws of physics in other threads, but not this one.

*removed discussion of moderation* - CCP Eterne

I intentionally focused it away from that aspect (damage) and toward the Conservation of Momentum which was still completely in line with the thread title. I ask the rest of you to save discussion of those other effects for their respective threads and focus only on momentum and MWD's affect on momentum and collisions.

Answer to question on previous locked thread: To answer Pipa's question on the effect of velocity on the mass of an object mass only begins to increase as the object approaches fractions of the speed of light. The speed of light (c) is 3,000,000 m/s so an object would need to near 300,000 m/s (1/10 of c) before any substantial increase in mass occurred. Pipa claims that an SFI can hit 14,000 m/s and a Rifter can hit 10 km/s and while I want to verify those figures for myself, they are not even remotely close to 300,000 m/s. Either way, the micro warp technology combined with these incredible increases to mass and velocity provide strong reasons that there should be no collisions when MWD is on.

You have to think about the possible game breaking interactions this would create.

Picture this, a plated abaddon ABs into a stationary stiletto at 100 m/s

The abaddon is in the neighborhood of 150 times more massive than a stiletto, and if we're following the laws of physics (assuming negligible loss to thermal energy and crushing parts of the ship) the stiletto should immediately accelerate to 15,000 m/s or 15 km/s and never slow down unless it wants to. This would allow it to cross 150 km in 10s and tackle a sniper fleet, and would be relatively simple to execute. You could even get the abaddon up to 150 m/s and accelerate the frigate to 22.5 km/s

I too am annoyed by the fact that ships bank in space, and their max velocity and various other physics issues, but the game is not a physics simulator it is a social political and economic simulator.

Above all, gameplay is greater than physics which is why we have FTL travel and dont have to wait decades to travel between star systems.

@the poster above me
science does not get in the way of fun, it CAN but it doesnt have to.
Have you never played the game? it encourages you to over analyze it; that's why its spreadsheets in space, just because you dont have fun using your brain doesnt mean other people dont.
This is not a duplicate thread
he is suggesting changing the bump mechanic to be more in line with physics IE something much smaller should not be able to noticeably bump something so much bigger.

I agree with all the others.


I'm all for realism... until it starts becomig tedious, nitpicky about details, and makes things less fun for no good reason other than "because it's more realistic!"

At the end of the day, playability and game balance trumps "realism."

Some good examples of this would include, but are not limited to...
- the insurance system (it's a mechanic to encourage people to PvP... a REAL insurance system would discourage war altogether!)
- the "fluid" that ships move around in (it's more intuitive for most people).
- stargates (creates "focus points" for conflict between players)
- the relatively slow speeds that everything in the game moves at (there are artificial satellites orbiting around our planet faster than most frigates MWDing in the game).
- non-moving planets (makes it easier for players visiting the same places to get their bearings)
- NPCs "appearing" out of nowhere (this applies especially to CONCORD... realistically they would never arrive at a gank site in a timely fashion
- Asteroid belts respawning every day (realistically belts would deplete and there would be nothing left for anyone to mine in high-sec)

I could go on.

Does it taste like black currant jam?

You are wrong. Physics makes the game fun. So does Sci Fi. When these are aligned, the game is that much more fun.

Momentum is never irrelevant. Without momentum, Eve collapses. With correct momentum, Eve shines.

If ISD is right and the other thread was a duplicate on damage, then this thread is not a duplicate. If the ISD was wrong, then he needs to reopen the previous thread. Claims of duplicates should not be used to prevent discussion on subjects which are NOT being discussed, like momentum, in this case. Also, I was not discussing moderation. I was discussing the subjects of a similar thread and why it was locked. Anyone who followed the link which I provided would have read exactly the same thing that I summarized about the reason given. So calm down and let discussion on subjects which you may not support continue.

That's exactly how I feel .. for the most part.

We all love the social and political aspects of the game. So let's add physics to the list. Obviously, any attempt to delve into Sci Fi will strain the reality of physics in the game, but it is not too hard to at least hold on most of the core laws of physics.

I also support an FTL drive or hyper drive idea, but I am content to give creative license to wormhole travel. I see no issue with momentum or bumping there.

Some people just want to see Asakai burn.

I am unlocking the topic and have moderated the original post to remove discussion of moderation. Though the topics are similar to an already-existent thread, this one is different enough to be useful to have open.

The concept is decent, but trying to ingnore MWD and AB is just dumb.

A baisc rifter with a t2 MWD on weighs about 1.500.000, and goes about 3000m/s for a total momentum of 4.500.000.000
A thanatos weighs about 1.100.000.000 and goes about 94m/s for a total momentum of 103.400.000.000

Given how 2 objects colliding would work, the rifter would exert about 4.35% of the total energy between the two ships back on the thanatos, which would exert the other 95.65% back on the rifter.

This would cause the thanatos to travel at a speed of 130m/s backwards and the rifter to travel about 2959m/s backwards.

This illustrates a third issue regarding whether the collisions should be elastic or inelastic. If there is no damage, then the natural reaction is to say that it was an elastic collision; which follows assuming that the collision is with the shields.

Your example does not accurately model an elastic collision, because the more massive object dominates the momentum and therefore experiences little change in velocity. The corrected numbers are that the frigate bounces back at 3180 m/s while the Thanatos continues forward at 86 m/s. You can verify this here. This is all assuming that full mass changes from prop mods are considered.

If damage occurs, some of the energy is released into other forms and therefore the resulting velocities will be less. Since we are reserving the damage discussion for the thread which seems currently fixed on the "ram" module, it is safe to say that real physics calculated damage will not be consider for a while. But we may be able to get an exception if the damage calculations are vital to the momentum calculations.