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Stop lowsec exploration sites from escalating into hisec
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#1 - 2013-12-18 21:36:58 UTC
tl;dr: a low-level lowsec site resulting in a hisec escalation is anomalous to all other escalations, and should not happen.

Previous to the Rubicon expansion exploration sites always escalated into equal or lower security class (hisec -> lowsec -> nullsec). There were no sites that escalated from nullsec to lowsec or hisec, or from lowsec to hisec. Then came this change, as per the patch notes:

Quote:
Level 1 to 3 DED sites and high-sec Anomaly sites have been added to the low-sec distribution tables. (The high-sec tables are unaffected). This is aimed at increasing income opportunities for newer players in low-sec space.


This is all well and good, and they spawn as they should. However, the Level 1-3 DED sites still act as if they originate only in hisec. This means that they may escalate into hisec.

Why does this matter? It prohibits lowsec pirate* players from running exploration escalations, unless they pay a lot for tags, or stop pirating altogether and just farm.

So what? Piracy has consequences, HTFU. Yes, it does, but this particular consequence goes against the apparent intended purpose of the patch itself: to help new players in lowsec out. While old players may afford tags4sec, or use an alt, or call in friends, the options that a pirate new player has for running these escalations are extremely limited to none.

What if I don't care about newbies? You should probably care that:


  1. This sort of "higher sec space for higher rewards" mechanic has no precedent, as it should not. It goes against what an escalation is supposed to be.
  2. It makes little logical/lore sense. "You spot the pirate leader running away to a secret base deeper in lawless space"... in hisec?


What if I don't care about exploration? You should probably stop reading this thread, then.

Wait a minute, you're a pirate and you just want to make your own life easier. I am and I do, but I also help a lot of newbie PvPers and it just feels wrong to explain to them that this newbie-oriented patch doesn't actually help them all that much.

So, what's the solution? Level 1-3 DED sites that spawn in lowsec should only escalate to lowsec or nullsec. Hisec level 1-3 DED sites can still escalate to all of hisec, lowsec, and nullsec.


* pirate = someone with security status bad enough to make hisec NPC police chase them around.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Mag's
Azn Empire
#2 - 2013-12-18 22:01:22 UTC
This does sound like an over sight on the part of CCP. Why restrict the content in this way?

Oh and in before "You chose the life of a criminal and therefore must pay the price" comments. What you should be saying is, "Yes, more consequences you pirates have to pay, that sounds fair in my bias view" Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3 - 2013-12-18 22:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
OP makes some reasonable points. +1 to this.

Lowsec residents are people too and deserve the same amount of consideration highsec residents and null residents enjoy.
Lucy Riraille
Taxeva
#4 - 2013-12-18 23:13:50 UTC
OMG. sweater then a carebear's tears are those of an evil pirate who is scared of hisec... EvilEvilEvil
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-12-18 23:16:52 UTC
I am a bit confused, you are talking about rated complexes. And to the best of knowledge there are no rated complexes that escalate.

So I don't understand the problem here.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-12-18 23:23:26 UTC
DED site don't escalate, only unrated sites like watch and vigil escalate.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#7 - 2013-12-18 23:55:02 UTC
It's only lawless space to npcs as the sec system we use only applies to capsuleers which is why concord enforces it. As far as I am aware it's all 'empire' to npcs so from the escalations point of view it's all the same,.

I agree in principle though and would like to see lowsec ores removed from the highsec gravimetric sites that spawn in high as they don't drive conflict and are just bonus asteroid belts for miners.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#8 - 2013-12-18 23:58:18 UTC
dexington wrote:
DED site don't escalate, only unrated sites like watch and vigil escalate.

I haven't run into a rated site that exhibited this yet, but I have had issues with unrated sites doing it twice. Regardless, the issue exists and needs fixing, be it the rated sites or the unrated sites doing it.

Lucy Riraille wrote:
OMG. sweater then a carebear's tears are those of an evil pirate who is scared of hisec... EvilEvilEvil


Wat. There's a difference between being afraid to take a risk and not trying to do impossible stuff. It is entirely possible, but risky, to go shopping in hisec with a -10 sec status, or to go ganking, or whatever else that involves quick movement. It is impossible to run an exploration site, since staying in place for a minute gets you blown up by the NPC police.

It's not the players I "fear", it's the unavoidable "stand still and you die" hisec mechanic.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#9 - 2013-12-19 00:04:17 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
It's only lawless space to npcs as the sec system we use only applies to capsuleers which is why concord enforces it. As far as I am aware it's all 'empire' to npcs so from the escalations point of view it's all the same,.


This has nothing to do with CONCORD. Jumping into hisec when you're a -10 sec status pirate gets you chased by the local police, not CONCORD. CONCORD only gets involved in matters that involve a criminal flag.

The game mechanics are perfectly aware of the difference between hisec and lowsec. You won't find an Angel Outpost spawn in hisec. In the same way, you should not find the escalation from a lowsec Angel Watch spawn in hisec.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#10 - 2013-12-19 01:19:49 UTC
+1. Even though this doesn't apply to me, it's a well though-out and reasonable proposal.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#11 - 2013-12-19 01:33:15 UTC
I can agree with this, so long as you're willing to agree that hisec escalations should not go to lowsec.

You want the ability to pursue your income-making activities without being blown up? Then give the hisec exploration noobs the same courtesy.

Or is it only YOUR fun that you care about?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#12 - 2013-12-19 02:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Meyr wrote:
I can agree with this, so long as you're willing to agree that hisec escalations should not go to lowsec.

You want the ability to pursue your income-making activities without being blown up? Then give the hisec exploration noobs the same courtesy.

Or is it only YOUR fun that you care about?

Is your cloaking device (to throw people off your trail, or Cloak+MWD trick) disabled in lowsec? No.
When you undock from a lowsec station, can absolutely anyone and their mother shoot you without consequence? No, there's gate guns.
Do you get blown up by NPCs without exception when you stay still for more than 15-20 seconds in lowsec? No.

That's the situation going from a hisec plex to a lowsec escalation. Now, when you go from a lowsec plex to a hisec escalation as an outlaw, reverse all those answers.

Running an escalation in lowsec is dangerous and requires keeping an eye out. Running an escalation in hisec as an outlaw is literally impossible. It's hardly the same situation.

A closer parallel would be if I were asking for lowsec plexes to not escalate into nullsec, but note how I'm not asking that. Going to nullsec to do an escalation is entirely possible, if risky -- same as going to lowsec from hisec.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#13 - 2013-12-19 04:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Meyr
Show me the noob explorer that stands a chance of surviving a lowsec escalation of his hisec site.

They're nothing more than padding for your killboards.

As a 2008 player, I can, with a fair degree of confidence, conduct Exploration in hisec, get a lowsec escalation, and complete it. The same goes for a lowsec escalation into nullsec.

There is damned near zero chance of survival for someone less than a year into Eve to survive in lowsec long enough to complete an escalation. They would be better served if it simply escalated to nullsec. They'd have a better chance of survival.

You worked HARD to earn that -10 sec status. Revel in it!

But don't complain that it makes life hard for you. You want mercy, and a fair chance at survival? How about you extend the same.

Or keep quiet, lock, and fire, just like you do now.

Live with the consequences of your chosen profession. Go explore in nullsec. Be brave, be BOLD!

Do what you pirates and gankers are always telling your victims to do - adapt to the changes, get help, do things differently, use an alt, etc. Innumerable threads on these forums are filled with exactly that advice.

Have you considered that maybe CCP set it up this way deliberately? You want to live the outlaw life, shooting everything that you can get a target lock upon. You can't expect to readily, simply, and easily be allowed to venture into civilized, law-abiding space, and not have consequences. That you are not simply shot out of hand when venturing into hisec is a gift.

So, you lose a few escalations. Fleet up with an alt, and use them to actually run it, once you warp there in a pod.

IMPROVISE, ADAPT, HTFU! Do what you're always advising others to do!
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-12-19 05:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
While I understand some reasoning behind post above, my opinion is that anything that is solved by "bring an alt" is a terrible pay2win game design.

OT: CCP will probably have to remake "new" lowsec explo sites into separate entities in the generation table, similar in everything but escalation destinations, but I think it can be done.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#15 - 2013-12-19 07:44:08 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Show me the noob explorer that stands a chance of surviving a lowsec escalation of his hisec site.

They're nothing more than padding for your killboards.


o/ I started lowsec exploration at the age of one month.

Quote:
As a 2008 player, I can, with a fair degree of confidence, conduct Exploration in hisec, get a lowsec escalation, and complete it. The same goes for a lowsec escalation into nullsec.

There is damned near zero chance of survival for someone less than a year into Eve to survive in lowsec long enough to complete an escalation. They would be better served if it simply escalated to nullsec. They'd have a better chance of survival.


As a 2010 player, I can with absolute confidence explore everywhere I damn please- except in high security space, where the game mechanics prevent it from me. I learned the skills when I was a newb in a T1 fit cruiser running 4/10s in lowsec. These skills also laid the foundation for my PVP career, and would have been impossible to acquire in hisec.

This even furthermore justifies sending people to higher risk areas for higher rewards via escalations.


Quote:
But don't complain that it makes life hard for you. You want mercy, and a fair chance at survival? How about you extend the same.

Or keep quiet, lock, and fire, just like you do now.

Live with the consequences of your chosen profession. Go explore in nullsec. Be brave, be BOLD!

Do what you pirates and gankers are always telling your victims to do - adapt to the changes, get help, do things differently, use an alt, etc. Innumerable threads on these forums are filled with exactly that advice.


You show extreme bitterness and bias here, and accuse people without actually being familiar with the game mechanics at all. My sec status is deep in red, it was at -9.7 at lowest, and I've never been a pirate. I was a member of the Gallente Militia, conducting factional warfare in low security space. I went from low sec status to outlaw in a week without shooting a single "innocent victim". In PVP, the one who shoots first takes a sec status hit if the target is not an outlaw.

Quote:
Have you considered that maybe CCP set it up this way deliberately? You want to live the outlaw life, shooting everything that you can get a target lock upon. You can't expect to readily, simply, and easily be allowed to venture into civilized, law-abiding space, and not have consequences. That you are not simply shot out of hand when venturing into hisec is a gift.


You seem to have missed the fact that we don't want to fly around in highsec, just CCP to fix the escalations so that they behave as expected, and lead to null.


.
Lucy Riraille
Taxeva
#16 - 2013-12-19 07:53:24 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
While I understand some reasoning behind post above, my opinion is that anything that is solved by "bring an alt" is a terrible pay2win game design.

OT: CCP will probably have to remake "new" lowsec explo sites into separate entities in the generation table, similar in everything but escalation destinations, but I think it can be done.


Not at all!

If someone not heavily involved in PVP complains about anything, may it be a valid complaint or not, he often gets this answer:

"...EVE is a harsh place, deal with it.... OR ... learn to play with others, find buddies , form a fleet...."

Same goes here! As we all ko, everything one does in EVE has its consequences! -10 doesn't come from running DED sites or lowsec exploration!

Lots of lowsec dwelles that I have flown with really care for their -10. They start whining when someone tries to shoot NPCs at a gate for fear of sec state rise...

Anyway, OP should get friends that can enter hisec without getting "automatically blown" he can enter hisec in a capsule and warp to the coordinates and make a BM, give it to his buddie and he can finish it.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#17 - 2013-12-19 09:06:39 UTC
Meyr wrote:
I can agree with this, so long as you're willing to agree that hisec escalations should not go to lowsec.

You want the ability to pursue your income-making activities without being blown up? Then give the hisec exploration noobs the same courtesy.

Or is it only YOUR fun that you care about?


you don't understand.

a hisec pilot who venture in lowsec have a higher chance than usual to die, but provided a few simple precautions, can avoid it.

a "pirate" staying in place more than 1 minute WILL get destroyed by OP NPC without ANY means to avoid it.

giving them the courtesy, would mean that anyone entering lowsec with a sec status above -2 would be insta poped by NPC with no way to avoid it i they stay in place for 1 minute, how about that?
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#18 - 2013-12-19 13:41:18 UTC
Giving those with a negative sec status the same advice they have repeatedly given others is now a form of bitterness?

Good to know.

Also, you are not being blown up for venturing into hisec space. Traveling, shopping, and, yes, killing there are still very commonplace and easily accomplished.

What you seem to be objecting to is the fact that you can't MAKE A LIVING THERE.

In all honesty, this seems fair to me. When I was in the Gallente Faction War (yes, I've been there, too), I had to live with restrictions. When I lived in lowsec (lived, not pirated - oddly enough, you lot don't seem to hunt 0.0 denizens living in lowsec for a few months with the same enthusiasm that you have for the hisec border systems - not once did a pirate band try to fight us), with negative sec status (yes, I've shot and been shot at), I had to cope with limitations.

So very often, I read, and have commented upon, posts in these forums about ganking, piracy, the dangers of hauling, the lack of targets in lowsec, etc., and they always have one or more of the following:

1. HTFU little hisec carebear! Eve is harsh & dangerous!

2. Get an alt to (scout, haul, web, ECM, etc.)!

3. CCP, don't make ganking targets harder to kill!

4. Sec status grinding sucks! It's a HUGE penalty! (Not really, a small bit of ratting in lowsec will do it, you simply don't like it)

5. Get friends to help you!

So, when you get that same advice in return, when you want to engage in some hisec activity that will make you ISK, or make life easier, that you don't see the hypocrisy in some of the comments here is astounding.

So, yes, if you want to use hisec to earn ISK, and you have a low sec status, use an alt! That is the exact same advice given to people trying to earn ISK in lowsec - use an alt to help! In lowsec, YOU are the danger. In hisec, because there are no ravening hordes of bloodthirsty Ebil Piwates (tm) around to punish you for the temerity of trying to make a living, the game has to do it.

Decision, consequence.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#19 - 2013-12-19 14:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Giving those with a negative sec status the same advice they have repeatedly given others is now a form of bitterness?

Good to know.


It is, actually, because

a) you're conflating a bunch of individuals and putting them all under the umbrella of "pirates" and suggesting that they all have a unified voice

b) Your argument doesn't come from a belief of how the game should be, or what the optimal design choice is. The idea behind your argument is these pirates did something I don't like, so I'm going to argue against it to spite them


So yeah. You're just shitting up the thread with bitterness at this point.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#20 - 2013-12-19 15:09:55 UTC
the butthurt is strong with this one.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
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