These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

ECM is still broken
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#41 - 2013-12-17 19:56:25 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Sand Shardani wrote:
To be fair, they had 14! jammers vs 2 ECCM modules and 1 remote ECCM.

What you purposed in the link is that 2 ECCM should counter ALL the ECM, no matter how many are brought to the field.

How is that fair?


He wants ECM removed from the game, period. Only without explicitly saying it. Once ECM is removed it will then be sensor damps, then TD, then logi, until everything is a DPS race.

Once the anti-ECM crowd get their foot in the door they won't stop.

That's the way things work

eve is real


Where do I find the anti-Circle of Two crowd then?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-12-18 15:40:41 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Buy marauder.

Fit bastion module.

Activate same.

Problem solved.

This is actually a very interesting idea, marauders in bastion being immune to ECM. Can definately see the value in bringing one or two long-range fit marauders in every fleet to counter ECM..as a 'work around' to ECM's OP'ness...

...but still feel ECM *is* OP, given there is just too much singular power in a module that can 100% shut down another player. Again I can buy the whole percentage effect of disruptors, damps, webs and other eWar -- but that 100% 'your frakked' aspect of ECM when it lands is simply OP, especially when the prescribed counter-modules are too weak.

Consider: One warp disruptor is countered by one warp stabilizer. A beefed up point scenario involving a scram (which sacrifices range mind you) gives a 2 point point, countered by two warp stabilizers. A gourmet 'true sansha' scram with 3 point scram is countered by three stabilizers. Yet an ECM module can land a 100% 'your toast' jam while its ECCM counterpart does not comparibly negate the effect of one ECM module, it 'might' negate it...

See the imbalance? ECM is far too powerful in its effect, and then its counters are underpowered. Sure you can convince me not to remove ECM entirely, but only if the prescribed counters actually work.

Again, CCP as much as admitted ECM is broken/OP by recently introducing 'sensor compensation' skills. My opinion is they didn't go far enough.

F

Would you like to know more?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-12-18 15:59:16 UTC
NickSuccorso wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Even with the new 'sensor compensation' skills or an ECCM fitted, ECM is way OP IMHO.




ECM in fact is very weak. BUt its effect is too pwoerful. Its impossible to balance a mechanis that is boudn to frustrate one side or the other.

ECM need a total rewoark on mechanics. THe effect must be changes. Not be able to lock anything is an absolute effect and must go.

I for once woudl propose somethign like:

Increase the power of ECM modules so they jam MORE often. WHen they jam, instead of loosing locks and being unable to lock, your locks are exchanged by lock into other things in grid. That include friendlies.

That way ECM become a tool that cause damage spreading. A gang under ECM effect will have some of its ships shoto wrong targets until they can correct themselves. But these peopel will not be as frustrated as the old ECM targets. Also THe mechanic is very weak if you want to use a falcon to help a single ship. BEcause if the enemy is alone he has very little options for target reselection, and the falcon is likely to become the target then.

But the tool become VERY powerful on reducing the coordiantion of larger groups.


If ECM functioned as you suggest wouldn't it decimate an alliance like yours? In high sec that would cause criminal flags and invoke the wrath of concord. Ewar is very balanced as it stands.



Ever heard of security settings? They would stop you from firing at invalid targets. But you woudl still need to reselct the correct target, re-lock it and open fire.

The issue is not if ECM is balance, is that the effect is extremely non fun to one of the sides always. Or it failed and the falcon is raging, or it hit and other side is raging.

Sicne ECM is a very very pwoerful effect the chance of miss is made high. THis leads into an ewar module that is not fun at ALL.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-12-18 16:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Text

It's not a 100% you're done. You still have control over your ship. If you get jammed, why don't you fly away? ECM boats traditionally arent' the fastest around. You also need to mention that the chances of getting jammed are low, to very low. Meanwhile your drones also keep fighting and attacking. Why don't you just bring a Falcon of your own? Should be pretty standard for any small gang looking for a few ganks. :P
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#45 - 2013-12-18 17:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Buy marauder.

Fit bastion module.

Activate same.

Problem solved.

This is actually a very interesting idea, marauders in bastion being immune to ECM. Can definately see the value in bringing one or two long-range fit marauders in every fleet to counter ECM..as a 'work around' to ECM's OP'ness...

...but still feel ECM *is* OP, given there is just too much singular power in a module that can 100% shut down another player. Again I can buy the whole percentage effect of disruptors, damps, webs and other eWar -- but that 100% 'your frakked' aspect of ECM when it lands is simply OP, especially when the prescribed counter-modules are too weak.

Consider: One warp disruptor is countered by one warp stabilizer. A beefed up point scenario involving a scram (which sacrifices range mind you) gives a 2 point point, countered by two warp stabilizers. A gourmet 'true sansha' scram with 3 point scram is countered by three stabilizers. Yet an ECM module can land a 100% 'your toast' jam while its ECCM counterpart does not comparibly negate the effect of one ECM module, it 'might' negate it...

See the imbalance? ECM is far too powerful in its effect, and then its counters are underpowered. Sure you can convince me not to remove ECM entirely, but only if the prescribed counters actually work.

Again, CCP as much as admitted ECM is broken/OP by recently introducing 'sensor compensation' skills. My opinion is they didn't go far enough.

F



It is not a 100% shutdown, because the mods cycle over the course of a fight.

Say a enemy ship has a 50% chance of jamming with all mods/skills/rigs and implants.
For the time you are jammed you do 0 dps, but the timed you are unjammed you do FULL dps.
In other ewar you just do say 50% dps the entire course of the fight.
Effectively no difference.

If a ship has been fitted out for "permajam" to target you then it will also sacrifice all other factors, tank, etc, and will be paper thin ready to die to any unjammed ship that comes in. Like they say, "make friends" and get the friends to kill the jammer ship.

The only real advantage ECM has over other erwar is that it also shuts off the scram/web as well leaving you free to disengage, so maybe it should just jam highs.

You are remembering all the times ECM landed on you, but you are forgetting all the times the ECM didn't land and how it sucked for that pilot because he is now "shut down" since his ship wasn't made for doing anything else.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#46 - 2013-12-18 17:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Kagura Nikon wrote:
NickSuccorso wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Even with the new 'sensor compensation' skills or an ECCM fitted, ECM is way OP IMHO.




ECM in fact is very weak. BUt its effect is too pwoerful. Its impossible to balance a mechanis that is boudn to frustrate one side or the other.

ECM need a total rewoark on mechanics. THe effect must be changes. Not be able to lock anything is an absolute effect and must go.

I for once woudl propose somethign like:

Increase the power of ECM modules so they jam MORE often. WHen they jam, instead of loosing locks and being unable to lock, your locks are exchanged by lock into other things in grid. That include friendlies.

That way ECM become a tool that cause damage spreading. A gang under ECM effect will have some of its ships shoto wrong targets until they can correct themselves. But these peopel will not be as frustrated as the old ECM targets. Also THe mechanic is very weak if you want to use a falcon to help a single ship. BEcause if the enemy is alone he has very little options for target reselection, and the falcon is likely to become the target then.

But the tool become VERY powerful on reducing the coordiantion of larger groups.


If ECM functioned as you suggest wouldn't it decimate an alliance like yours? In high sec that would cause criminal flags and invoke the wrath of concord. Ewar is very balanced as it stands.



Ever heard of security settings? They would stop you from firing at invalid targets. But you woudl still need to reselct the correct target, re-lock it and open fire.

The issue is not if ECM is balance, is that the effect is extremely non fun to one of the sides always. Or it failed and the falcon is raging, or it hit and other side is raging.

Sicne ECM is a very very pwoerful effect the chance of miss is made high. THis leads into an ewar module that is not fun at ALL.


Well a guy in a badger or retriever or pve fit who has to sit there and wait to die while the PVPers shoot him is not having fun (unless he is masochistic type). He is "shut down" unable to do anything. If we have to eliminate all fights where one side doesn't have fun then all ganks must go as well.

Seems like some pvpers don't like the taste of their own medicine.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#47 - 2013-12-18 18:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:


Well a guy in a badger or retriever or pve fit who has to sit there and wait to die while the PVPers shoot him is not having fun. He is "shut down" unable to do anything. If we have to elimate non-fun fights to one side from the game then all ganks will go.


He should fit some ECM


Also, just noticed that post was from a Circle Of Two guy

Which makes it hypocritical in the extreme

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#48 - 2013-12-18 18:42:14 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Buy marauder.

Fit bastion module.

Activate same.

Problem solved.

This is actually a very interesting idea, marauders in bastion being immune to ECM. Can definately see the value in bringing one or two long-range fit marauders in every fleet to counter ECM..as a 'work around' to ECM's OP'ness...

...but still feel ECM *is* OP, given there is just too much singular power in a module that can 100% shut down another player. Again I can buy the whole percentage effect of disruptors, damps, webs and other eWar -- but that 100% 'your frakked' aspect of ECM when it lands is simply OP, especially when the prescribed counter-modules are too weak.

Consider: One warp disruptor is countered by one warp stabilizer. A beefed up point scenario involving a scram (which sacrifices range mind you) gives a 2 point point, countered by two warp stabilizers. A gourmet 'true sansha' scram with 3 point scram is countered by three stabilizers. Yet an ECM module can land a 100% 'your toast' jam while its ECCM counterpart does not comparibly negate the effect of one ECM module, it 'might' negate it...

See the imbalance? ECM is far too powerful in its effect, and then its counters are underpowered. Sure you can convince me not to remove ECM entirely, but only if the prescribed counters actually work.

Again, CCP as much as admitted ECM is broken/OP by recently introducing 'sensor compensation' skills. My opinion is they didn't go far enough.

F



1. Stop whoring your blog. If you wanna make an argument, make it here
2. Simply stomping your internet feet and internet screaming "NONONO" isn't an argument.
3. Saying ECM is bad because it either works or doesn't seems to be the only real point you have, but repeating it over and over isn't more persuasive.
-Don't complain that ECCM isn't a hard counter to ECM when TEs, TCs, and SeBos aren't hard counters to Damps and TDs either.
-Don't complain that ECM makes you "100% borked 30% of the time" without acknowledging that a damp will make you 100% borked 100% of the time.
-Don't whine about not being able to counter ECM when there are many good counters that have already been described to you.
-ECM is here to stay, you should probably learn to deal with it rather than just whine about it (and lose lots of ships to it). I know if I was in a fight against you, I'd be bringing Falcons and Blackbirds without a second though - you appear to completely suck whenever faced with ECM. Note: other people don't completely suck when faced with ECM, and I don't fly ECM in those fights, I bring something else. TL:DR This is a YOU thing, not a GAME thing.

My opinion? ECM adds a nice flavor to the chess match that is EVE. It's a force multiplier, similar to SDs and TDs and Heavy Neuts, but different enough to be exciting. Landing enough jams (from several ECM ships) to break a Guardian cap chain is awesome; getting alpha'd off the field by a few Tempests sucks; getting caught by an interceptor and blapped is embarrassing. It's similar, but different, to flying a SD ship, except if you damp down the target range of a ship far enough they'll always need to bring in backup; with ECM, you can just end up pissing off your target for 20 seconds and then getting your **** pushed in for the next ten seconds because your jams didn't land and that target wants your thin-skinned ship DEAD.

Worst part of ECM isn't getting jammed and coming to cry about it on the forums; the worst part is flitting around the edges of an engagement and being completely ignored by the enemy, because your jams aren't causing enough problems to bother with, and knowing that they'll get around to killing you after they've killed all the logi/dps/tackle/SD boats/pods.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-12-18 19:41:57 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
< troll tl:dr>

There are actually several good posts explaining why ECM remains broken, as further supported by CCP's recent admission of such with the introduction of 'sensor compensation' skills. My simple assertion is they haven't gone far enough. So was it CCP stamping their feet with 'sensor comp' skill release, or me for asking for additional tweaking?

p.s. The use of out-of-EvE-Gate content will always be important, because not everyone can access the EvE O' forums from behind corporate firewalls while at work.

F

Would you like to know more?
Omega Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-12-18 19:46:57 UTC
wow, ecm is broken. But in this case, falcons are honorable in case of

a. Jamming another falcon
b. Jamming Reps
c. Jamming Hisec warlords
b. Jamming Rapiers

<3 hisec warlerds
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#51 - 2013-12-18 19:51:48 UTC
Omega Crendraven wrote:
wow, ecm is broken. But in this case, falcons are honorable in case of

a. Jamming another falcon
b. Jamming Reps
c. Jamming Hisec warlords
b. Jamming Rapiers

<3 hisec warlerds

Because Of Falcons.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-12-18 19:59:03 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Omega Crendraven wrote:
wow, ecm is broken. But in this case, falcons are honorable in case of

a. Jamming another falcon
b. Jamming Reps
c. Jamming Hisec warlords
b. Jamming Rapiers

<3 hisec warlerds

Because Of Falcons.


See option #8.

Doesn't mean ECM isn't actually OP though. :)

Would you like to know more?
Kunming
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-12-18 21:16:34 UTC
ECM should be brought back to its old initial state, where you had to stack enough to jam a ship.

Many may disagree but I find this much more strategic, and back in the day you could use remote dampeners to cycle jam the targets which required team work instead of "F1-2-3..bam bam bam".

Just my 2 cents.
Sand Shardani
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2013-12-18 22:25:12 UTC
I would like to see diminishing returns on each successful jam cycle, so each proceeding cycle has a slightly smaller chance to jam.

Force ECM pilots to use strategy on who and when to jam, and also give a player a chance to fight back eventually.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-12-18 22:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Nurf falcon durrr durrr durrr.

Also:
Omega Crendraven wrote:
wow, ecm is broken. But in this case, falcons are honorable in case of

a. Jamming another falcon
b. Jamming Reps
c. Jamming Hisec warlords
b. Jamming Rapiers

<3 hisec warlerds

Stealth nurf webs thread detected. Webs OP.
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2013-12-18 23:02:37 UTC
ECM isn't too powerful or underpowered

RNG is just a ****** mechanic
What?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-12-18 23:05:31 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
NickSuccorso wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Even with the new 'sensor compensation' skills or an ECCM fitted, ECM is way OP IMHO.




ECM in fact is very weak. BUt its effect is too pwoerful. Its impossible to balance a mechanis that is boudn to frustrate one side or the other.

ECM need a total rewoark on mechanics. THe effect must be changes. Not be able to lock anything is an absolute effect and must go.

I for once woudl propose somethign like:

Increase the power of ECM modules so they jam MORE often. WHen they jam, instead of loosing locks and being unable to lock, your locks are exchanged by lock into other things in grid. That include friendlies.

That way ECM become a tool that cause damage spreading. A gang under ECM effect will have some of its ships shoto wrong targets until they can correct themselves. But these peopel will not be as frustrated as the old ECM targets. Also THe mechanic is very weak if you want to use a falcon to help a single ship. BEcause if the enemy is alone he has very little options for target reselection, and the falcon is likely to become the target then.

But the tool become VERY powerful on reducing the coordiantion of larger groups.


If ECM functioned as you suggest wouldn't it decimate an alliance like yours? In high sec that would cause criminal flags and invoke the wrath of concord. Ewar is very balanced as it stands.



Ever heard of security settings? They would stop you from firing at invalid targets. But you woudl still need to reselct the correct target, re-lock it and open fire.

The issue is not if ECM is balance, is that the effect is extremely non fun to one of the sides always. Or it failed and the falcon is raging, or it hit and other side is raging.

Sicne ECM is a very very pwoerful effect the chance of miss is made high. THis leads into an ewar module that is not fun at ALL.


Well a guy in a badger or retriever or pve fit who has to sit there and wait to die while the PVPers shoot him is not having fun (unless he is masochistic type). He is "shut down" unable to do anything. If we have to eliminate all fights where one side doesn't have fun then all ganks must go as well.

Seems like some pvpers don't like the taste of their own medicine.



Completley fdifferent. THe guy in a hualer is not trying to fight. The guy under ECM is tryign to fight. He wa sprepared to fight and he can die without even being able to use a single module.

The peopel that want to avoid PVP are avoidign the game. ECM avoids most of the PVP for one side, so its bad (The ffect)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-12-18 23:10:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

The guy under ECM is tryign to fight. He wa sprepared to fight and he can die without even being able to use a single module.

I didn't know ecm disables prop mods, reppers, and hardeners. Please, tell me more.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-12-18 23:31:13 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nurf falcon durrr durrr durrr.

Also:
Omega Crendraven wrote:
wow, ecm is broken. But in this case, falcons are honorable in case of

a. Jamming another falcon
b. Jamming Reps
c. Jamming Hisec warlords
b. Jamming Rapiers

<3 hisec warlerds

Stealth nurf webs thread detected. Webs OP.



In fact i think ECM boats need t be STRONGER. But less frustratign for both sides... that is why i think the mechanic must change

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#60 - 2013-12-18 23:32:37 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

The guy under ECM is tryign to fight. He wa sprepared to fight and he can die without even being able to use a single module.

I didn't know ecm disables prop mods, reppers, and hardeners. Please, tell me more.

Apparently it's that powerful...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?