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CCP continues to ignore the plight of missile ships, such as the phoenix in pvp.

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Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-12-04 23:34:45 UTC
Rekon X wrote:
Guess we need a huge buff to the Ishtar also. There are none on the list.

This is about weapons systems not the ships them self.
Drones how ever do have a major role, Domi fleets anyone? Yeah that's what I thought.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-12-05 12:51:35 UTC
The Ishtar is in a VERY good position right now. It's arguably one of the best AHACS. Besides, we are discussing missiles and launcher here, not ships and hulls. :)
Adamski flipflop
Trigger Warning.
#163 - 2013-12-05 13:03:32 UTC
Bandalon wrote:
Right now we all know the phoenix sucks for many things,

Idea:


4 highslots (3 turret, 3 missile) (make sure fitting 4 weapons isnt really viable)


fitting 4 would be terrible because it would mean you couldnt seige. and a dread without seige is just a fat battleship with tank and a target on it.
Freedom Munition
Perkone
Caldari State
#164 - 2013-12-05 13:12:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Freedom Munition
the problem is missiles, they aren't instant hitting, they don't have an alpha, they do low damage, and their secondary skills aren't tied to gunnery secondary skill. The phoenix is a shield tanked ship which make it inferior to armor tanked ships, and it has a weapons system that everyone agrees without an alpha or damage its useless.

solution to this problem.

rebalance logistics, logistics ships should repair armor or shields depending on your fitting/ship class, so if you're shield tanked you get shields instead of armor, this would make all logistics ship viable, and shield and or armor tanking viable. Add implants to the game to increae shield ehp compared to slave set for armor, remove missile secondary skill requirements, just remove missile secondary skills completely.

problem solved, increase velocity significantly, increase damage potential, and give players the option of fitting hybrids and or missiles in the same slots.
Bandalon
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#165 - 2013-12-05 17:03:46 UTC
HOw about giving capital missiles continuous (and even exponential) acceleration? This way they wont be useless from over 50km range but they wont be insta-hit either
Trillian Stargazer
Perkone
Caldari State
#166 - 2013-12-06 06:00:53 UTC
you should know that drone ships are fotm. since you have been fighting against them in the war and using them.

tengus are used a lot in nullsec pvp. you should know this since you are fighting people that use them on a regular basis against you.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#167 - 2013-12-06 12:33:37 UTC
Why does the Phoenix have to be good at PVP?
Not every ship in the game is good at PVP.
Vytone
Ganja Labs
Exodus.
#168 - 2013-12-06 15:06:03 UTC
Simple solution here really, train all ship types of all races and all weapon systems and you will always be prepared for the new meta.

Porblem solved, now throw me some isk.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#169 - 2013-12-06 16:43:27 UTC
Vytone wrote:
Simple solution here really, train all ship types of all races and all weapon systems and you will always be prepared for the new meta.

Porblem solved, now throw me some isk.

after I finish the training and see if it works

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2013-12-13 12:21:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
You see I have a dream, the dream is that if CCP cannot balance Caldari to be viable, then they will buff Caldari to the position of master race. I will fly the superior Phoenix into combat to deal twice the damage of the MOROS, and be able to wipe out legions of frigates in the explosive after wave of my citadel torpedoes.

I will travel the stars as the dominant force, slaying groups of inferior beings such as Minmatar, and Gallente with my battlestar like Phoenix.

Think of it like this, Gallente have had time to be overpowered, now let Caldari shine. You will force current Gallente pilots to switch to Caldari training, which means they will have to buy more plex or spend more time paying to play your game in order to compete.

The age of Caldari is now, if you want it to be ccp

One last thing, this would help reduce lag in pvp, overpowered missiles wiping out hordes of ships in the afterwave would remove the blobs from the game, noobs stuck with laser beams, and railguns would be forced to all switch to missiles, eventually removing peasants from our systems.



So... let me get this straight

In your mind, one race is more powerfully statistically than the others in one playstyle

So your solution

Is to make a different race even more powerful statistically in that playstyle



The flaws in your reasoning are as apparent as the flaws in the logic of your solution

How dare you criticize CCPs balancing strategies. Edit: hoooow daare yooou :(

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2013-12-13 12:39:14 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
The Ishtar is in a VERY good position right now. It's arguably one of the best AHACS. Besides, we are discussing missiles and launcher here, not ships and hulls. :)

It has issues soloing vanguards still . . .

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#172 - 2013-12-18 00:55:54 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Why does the Phoenix have to be good at PVP?
Not every ship in the game is good at PVP.


Checklist,

Bad at PvP
Worse at PvE
No turret slots so no mining...

A ship doesnt have to be good at something, just not utterly useless at everything.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#173 - 2013-12-18 01:19:07 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
Caldari have no role, that is the point I am making.

not true: they are the best kiters in the game. You can see Caldari ships in FW


Someone here has never fought against a stabber.




A Hookbill will chew a stabbers head off.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#174 - 2013-12-18 05:10:50 UTC
Majindoom Shi wrote:
The point is valid. Most people won't admit it. They don't want to use missiles so they ignore the fact. And raven doctrines are rare and may have just been a phase. Name me one class of ship where caldari is the favored for pvp.

T3? Nope teng us are good but not favored. Bc? Nope maybe only the crow would be favored in its class. Anything dread and above caldari is a joke and everyone knows it.



ROHKs get favored but they are gun boats not missile boats, other than that i would see drake fleets and tengu fleets but they seem to be more like roaming fleets rather than any siege fleets. but yeah i agree that missile boats are under used, i even watch half a volley disappear in a mission and ships with 7-8 guns also have room for 3-4 defender missiles take out missiles at any range, while still throwing cruise missiles at youShocked

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#175 - 2013-12-18 11:57:20 UTC
Bandalon wrote:
Right now we all know the phoenix sucks for many things,

Idea:

Give players the option to choose between missiles or hybrid turrets, to differentiate it from the moros give it an optimal range bonus on the turrets (leave the dps bonus on the missiles)

Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonus:

10% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to Capital Launcher rate of fire per skill level

4 highslots (3 turret, 3 missile) (make sure fitting 4 weapons isnt really viable)


That leaves a blaster Phoenix doing just 60% of the damage of a Moros. Okay, the burst tank is nice and the range bonus gives some options, but it doesn't look attractive at all.

If the Phoenix is going to remain a missile ship, then it needs to significantly outdamage its counterparts against capitals to make up for its deficiencies at the blap game and in large fleet because of flight time. Nerfing capital blaster range would also be a good idea, to give the Revelation some reason to exist - it's almost as worthless as the Phoenix. A hybrid Phoenix could work with optimal and damage/ROF bonuses if the excessive range of capital blasters is cut down.

Elsewhere... HMs are hopeless. The nerf was justified originally (although it did cause severe problems with balance between Fury lights, old RLMLs and HMLs), but not after medium LR turrets were fixed. You could probably just undo the entire HM nerf and things would be okay, given the recent changes to the Drake. Otherwise, give it back its old damage and range, but retain the precision nerf and and let players deal with it.

RHMLs and RLMLs are deeply frustrating and basically not much fun to use. The idea of burst damage and long reload is interesting in principle but fails in application, at least with the current numbers. However, people would be a lot happier with RLMLs if HMLs were worth a damn.

Torps on BS hulls essentially have no role, with cruise being a better, easier-to-fit choice in almost all circumstances. Since Cruise isn't overpowered, torps need boosting, but with bombers bonuses' altered to maintain their status quo. A bit more range and a bit more damage would probably work. Given the immobility of BS hulls, it's tough to see a torp BS becoming "overpowered".
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#176 - 2013-12-18 15:09:00 UTC
another thing that slowly but surly is nabbing on missiles is that during the great reballance, almost all ships got at least a little faster, considering base speed.

but the explosion velocity of missiles has never been adjusted to these changes.

I believe only the Cruise missiles got a boost.

Small missiles and ;launchers are quite alright I beleive.


Rlml where. are out of ballance with Hm

Ham are out of Ballance with Torp

HM are not an option for PvP except on hulls with 3 direct missile bonuses

Torps only work on hulls with 3 direct missile bonuses or/and covert ops

Capital missiles are a Joke.

T2 rage/Fury should be able to do full damage to a non prop fitted ship of the same size category.

The new RLML should go back to the drawing table if it has to replace the old one.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2013-12-18 15:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Deleted, got it all wrong Oops
NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#178 - 2013-12-18 16:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: NickSuccorso
What in god's name is a Phoenix? Is that a ship or something? Is it in Eve?

You are failing to understand how reality works. For there to be good ships in a video game, there has to be bad ships to compair them too. Flying a Nag wouldn't be nearly as cool if I couldn't laugh at people who were dysfunctional enough to train for a Phoenix.
Bernie Nator
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#179 - 2013-12-18 17:26:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Using examples of what one alliance fields in a few select fights doesn't really show much. In general, metrics show that missiles have certainly come down in popularity some since HML changes but overall they are still performing well.

The Phoenix is certainly not in a good place. We actually tried to do a pass on it a few patches back but couldn't get the tuning quite right so we decided to wait a little since there will be good opportunities to balance it alongside other changes that we have in mind.

Missiles gained some ground recently with Cruise changes and the addition of RHML. We want to do a few more things over the next few patches that will also impact missile balance, if that helps your outlook.

You mean my phoenix will be able to do more than scan?

THIS IS THE BEST DAY EVER.
Skill Training Online
Doomheim
#180 - 2013-12-18 17:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Skill Training Online
The reasoning is simple..


GARBAGE PLAYERS use missiles.


which means:


Missiles are used by GARBAGE PLAYERS.


which gives missiles the reputation of being.


GARBAGE.


If you are a terrible, god awful player, please don't blame your weapon system, I've been using blasters since day one and you don't see me complaining.


If you die to my blasters you are a TERRIBLE GARBAGE PLAYER, because even the smallest short range missile system (Rockets) has the possibility of kiting outside of my blaster range.


CCP do not buff missiles, they are fine.


Maybe expanding on the tutorials will stop GARBAGE PLAYERS from trashing the GOOD NAME of a PROPERLY WORKING weapon system.


I don't mean to attend people, we all started out as garbage players. Please just learn to play your class before you ***** that my class is OP.

Thank You Obama!