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Proteus: dual-prop alturnative
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Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#1 - 2013-12-17 05:25:25 UTC
So, I learned the hard way that the learning curve for a Gallente brawler is actually a cliff they throw you off of a hundred times till you figure it out. That being said, I've learned to love my Atrons, Catalysts, and especially Enyos. However, when a pirate or WT decides to park a Vagabond, Cynabal, SFI, ect on an Outpost accel gate, I get to go back for another ship. (yes, I know how to use d-scan and/or land 70km out. Just an example)

I've been plotting my revenge and drooling over a Cloaky Proteus for months, just waiting for the propper skills to train. Finally there, and thought I'd look for a decent critique before I go out to use and loose the thing. Since range dictation is life or death for a brawler, and a Cap Booster doesn't help with that, I'm considering the following departure from the cookie cutter:

Proteus: Cloaky Dual-Prop.
High:
Covert Ops Cloak II
5x Heavy Neutron Blaster II's

Mids:
Federation Navy Stasis Web
Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Gistum C-type 10MN Microwarp Drive

Lows:
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy EANM
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II's

Rigs:
Hybrid Burst Aerator
Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster
Anti-explosive pump

Subsystems:
Friction Extension
Augmented Plating
Covert Ops Reconfig
Gravitational Capacitor
Power Grid Multiplier

Plan A: Decloak, facehug, watch pretty explosion

Plan B: Deliver a few overheated volleys of Void and proceed directly to a 13km orbit to get out of Neut/Web/Scram range and switch to Null. Dive back in with Void to finish the job.

Plan C: Adjust orbit toward a warp-out, reheat web/scram/mwd, align from orbit, switch prop to MWD, Gtfo.

Obviously, I never want to get within 12.5km of a Pilgrim, but could potentially hold web/scram on one indefinitely while my gang hammers it. Intended to be extremely picky solo, Plan C is for the case it looks like his reinforcements will arrive before mine.

Intended for ganking campers in Lowsec solo or with a small gang. I have localised injector and dessonic encoding subs, as well as a myriad of rigs, hardeners, ect for refit flexibility. Thoughts? Don't flame the new guy...
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#2 - 2013-12-17 13:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Inkuras
Your plan is good. On paper. Your fit is decent, but I can work with it.

Basically, what you've described wanting to do is decloaked at 0 with Void, then move to a 13km orbit with Null. Why do this? You're not cutting anyone's damage but your own. Cynabuns, Vagas, and SFIs all track fine at 13km. You'll be better off loading Fed/Caldari Antimatter and simply orbiting at 500 or just flat out approaching. This way you maximize your DPS from those sexy blasters. By switching from Void to Null, you lose 5 seconds of DPS each ammo swap. If you do ~500dps in a Cloaky fit, you're losing 5000 DPS in the 10 seconds it takes to switch, then switch back.

Your dual prop is unnecessary, and your navigation sub is silly. You're better off using the Localized Injectors, and simply pulsing your MWD whenever you need to close range some (if they are dual prop).

Your rigs are also a bit odd. The burst aerator stacks horribly with the 3 magstabs, and the metastasis is unnecessary. Anti explosive makes sense, but you're better off filling the extra low you gained with the Localized Injectors with an explosive hardener. Now, you have 3 open rig slots, which I suggest you fill with 3 T2 Trimarks.

Here's a fit I cooked up:

Proteus: Cloaky Ganker

Highs:
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II (x5)

Mids:
Corelum C-Type 10mn Microwarpdrive
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Lows:
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II (x3)

Rigs:
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II (x3)

Subsystems:
Covert Reconfiguration
Friction Extension Processor
Augmented Plating
Power Core Multiplier
Localized Injectors

Please do not fly this until all your subsystem skills are at 5. The bonuses they give are too hard to ignore.

Tactics are simple: decloak, activate all the things, scoop loot.

Best of luck!

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#3 - 2013-12-17 16:47:00 UTC
2nd the above. no dual prop, better scrambler, trimarks over gun rigs. c-type mwds are good and the injectors are also nice.

Don't get neuted.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#4 - 2013-12-17 18:10:37 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Don't get neuted.

That's also where a cap booster helps with range control, contrary to OP's original idea. No cap = no tackle, prop, guns, or Hardeners. Neuts are generally a T3's greatest threat.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#5 - 2013-12-17 23:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Fenris Orion
@ Liam : I guess I should have emphasized a little better that Plan A is exactly what you described, orbit at 1-2km and bang away with Void. However, I learned the hard way that with zero tracking bonus's from the subs, heavy neutrons don't track well at all, even against other cruisers. Tested this fact on a rather unfortunate Moa that wandered into my house. So, options are to either trade a Mag Stab for a TE, or use the rig. Otherwise, there's no point in using Void, and the whole point of this boat is to apply DPS quickly and disappear.

Plan B, the 13km orbit, is only if it looks like their Neut will cap me out before they pop, and Null still does 380-400dps . Neuts are not instantaneous, and unless you intend to dive straight in on a Pilgrim or be outnumbered by Neuting ships, then no, a Cap Booster does absolutely nothing to prevent a ship with a faster base speed (like just about anything that isn't an armor brawler), from slipping away and kiting you to death.

And the fit you cooked up is one of the cookie-cutter fits. It would be great when speed and range control is absolutely not an issue, but it's already hampered in speed/agility with a 1600mm plate, adding 3 Trimarks more than cancels the speed benefit of the localized injectors and makes it a really expensive brick.

I do appreciate the advice, though. Looking for examples I hadn't already accounted for, I'm sure there's something lurking that I hadn't thought of.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#6 - 2013-12-18 04:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Inkuras
Antimatter is generally preferred over Void, because it can apply its damage better than void due to it not having a tracking penalty. This leads to higher "applied" DPS and less "paper" DPS. Regarding Neuts, a single medium neut won't cap you out before you can kill them or disengage. Also, localized injectors doesn't give a speed bonus at all, it simply reduces the amount of cap your MWD uses by 15% per level. If you are decloaking at 0, then range control won't be an issue at all, and cookie cutter fit is fine. I appreciate your thinking outside of the box, but your theory is just that, a theory, with no realistic application where cookie cutter won't outperform it. Regarding the cap booster, it is an indirect impact on range control. It provides cap, with said cap you can run tackle and prop to maintain range. The booster in itself has no modifier on range control, as you said. And finally, overall fit speed is around 1200 m/a with MWD on, and 200m/a with MWD off. When your opponent is scrammed and webbed he won't be able to escape unless he himself is dual prop with a scram and web, such as a SFI in some scenarios.

Edit: the Proteus isn't meant to be fast. If you want a "speedy" T3 with total range control, get yourself a Loki.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#7 - 2013-12-18 05:10:56 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Also, localized injectors doesn't give a speed bonus at all, it simply reduces the amount of cap your MWD uses by 15% per level.


That's funny, because I was under the distinct impression that the Propulsion Sub is what determined the ships base speed and inertia modifier…
Localized Injectors: 180m/s - .586x
Gravitational Capacitor: 160m/s - .527x
Interdiction Nullifier: 140m/s - .762x
Wake Limiter: 140m/s - .586x

You're very clearly EFT-Warrioring your responses, and going way out on a limb to justify it without considering either theory -or-practice. Two ships start at 500m, one is Shield/Nano fit, the other fit with Armor Plates, both web/scram each other. If you think the armor boat is keeping range on the shield boat, you've lost your marbles. Thanks for playing.

Anyone else, preferably with practical experience with a Proteus outside of WH space, like to chime in?
Omega Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-12-18 05:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Crendraven
confirming shield nano fits carry scram. Peasant, dont try to kite at 13km with a proteus unless you are super l33t predator 666 and make railguns look OP with 30k scram

Based Russian PVP warlord proteus

[Proteus, Predator 666's Proteus]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Domination Nanofiber Structure
Domination Nanofiber Structure

Corelum C-Type 10MN Microwarpdrive
Federation Navy 100MN Afterburner
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
True Sansha Warp Scrambler

250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#9 - 2013-12-19 13:46:47 UTC
Fenris Orion wrote:
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Also, localized injectors doesn't give a speed bonus at all, it simply reduces the amount of cap your MWD uses by 15% per level.


That's funny, because I was under the distinct impression that the Propulsion Sub is what determined the ships base speed and inertia modifier…
Localized Injectors: 180m/s - .586x
Gravitational Capacitor: 160m/s - .527x
Interdiction Nullifier: 140m/s - .762x
Wake Limiter: 140m/s - .586x

You're very clearly EFT-Warrioring your responses, and going way out on a limb to justify it without considering either theory -or-practice. Two ships start at 500m, one is Shield/Nano fit, the other fit with Armor Plates, both web/scram each other. If you think the armor boat is keeping range on the shield boat, you've lost your marbles. Thanks for playing.

Anyone else, preferably with practical experience with a Proteus outside of WH space, like to chime in?

Sorry you think I'm EFTing my responses, I'm simply using my knowledge of the game and it's mechanics. Also, your "situation" with the nano shield fit vs. armor brawler is completely unrealistic, as nano shield ships do not carry scrams, and occasionally webs. If an scram and web armor brawler gets at 500 on a shield nano ship, it's game over for the nanoer. Regarding the subsystems, I was referring to a blatant speed bonus correlating to the subsystem skill level.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#10 - 2013-12-20 19:50:19 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:

Sorry you think I'm EFTing my responses, I'm simply using my knowledge of the game and it's mechanics. Also, your "situation" with the nano shield fit vs. armor brawler is completely unrealistic, as nano shield ships do not carry scrams, and occasionally wend. If an scram and web armor brawler gets at 500 on a shield nano ship, it's game over for the nanoer. Regarding the subsystems, I was referring to a blatant speed bonus correlating to the subsystem skill level.



I do appreciate that you're trying to be helpful, and I'll grant you that a shield/nano fit wouldn't -usually- carry web/scram, but I did specify in my OP that my target is pirates flying HACs and the like, who are themselves looking to gank FW pilots. I wouldn't be so concerned if I hadn't seen it happen more than a few times. They're mostly expecting frigs and dessys, so they at least have a web, and ready for close range. And comments like "Don't get neuted" and "Antimatter tracks better" are a waste of breath, I didn't start yesterday. Granted, I didn't say so in my OP, but I carry navy antimatter with everything, just in case.

The cookie-cutter brick tanked cloaky Proteus is mostly for ganking big, ratting carebears, not PvP-ready pies. Oh, btw, the True Sansha scrambler has the exact same stats as the Dread Gurista version but for twice the price. I did see eve-wiki misquote that fact, though. Which means that L33t Predator666's insane, tankless rail Proteus would have a 20km, heated, scram, not 30. Easy on the cocaine, dude!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#11 - 2013-12-20 20:58:30 UTC
-is something is trying to slip out of your range in order to kite you, then tracking won't be an issue and void will be fine, of course, I can see why you would just not want to use it.

I have a difficult time imagining what it is you're going to attack that will be able to out-run you while tackled and then kite you to death. Especially if you have a faction scram with the friction sub. However, I can see why you would want to have decent falloff. Maybe a dual web talos or something, resistances vs big guns. Shield kitey ships that wanna blow up frigs often go with point/web instead of scram/web, if you grab them they're not going anywhere.

True sansha scram has an extra 0.75 km of range and an extra point of disruption over the DG. Its twice the price because its good, its not a bad choice on a proteus, nor an unusual one as most people with 2 stabs think they're safe in lowsec.

Also, your own post showed the localized injectors have faster base speed than the gravitational capacitor, so yes, use them if you're concerned about range control. The cap savings are useful as well.

Your issues about the posted advice seem to be that cookie cutter doesn't give you the target selection you want, which is fair, but the ships that could realistically escape and kite you seem few and far between (examples here would be cool, dual prop cynabal, 90% web vigilant, and dual prop SFI come to mind), plus what may seem downside to you isn't much of one to someone else who is content to not engage such targets.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#12 - 2013-12-20 23:27:35 UTC

Now, that's is constructive! Thank you. So much better than a blanket "don't do that."

[qe] Your issues about the posted advice seem to be that cookie cutter doesn't give you the target selection you want, which is fair, but the ships that couldI realistically escape and kite you seem few and far between (examples here would be cool, dual prop cynabal, 90% web vigilant, and dual prop SFI come to mind), plus what may seem downside to you isn't much of one to someone else who is content to not engage such targets.[/quote]


^ That. I'm not interested in hunting noobs, carebears, or ratters. This thing is built as an anti-camper, and I live in Gallente/Caldari FW lowsec, so the vast majority of campers are using Minmitar and Caldari HACs and faction cruisers. And, as an example, I go head to head with a Hawk in my Enyo. If I start at 500 with web/scram/ab, he's toast. If both are web/mwd fit, though, he skills out of my blaster range before I can pop him, then I wait for death. Trying to prevent that from happening to my Prote.

I've looked at dropping the MWD for just the ab, since all I'm gonna do is bump him and (maybe) orbit. But, dunno if I'm comfortable without the ability to get out of his point range and bail if his friends show up in local.

I toyed with a 100mn AB. Nope. It's a freight train without much tank.

I've seriously considered dropping the web for the localized injectors and keeping both props. Should still be faster under one web with ab than targets base speed. But there's a high likelihood that they're dual prop too, given the spot they're camping.

I could also drop the web for a cap booster still too. Just started playing with mobile depots, so I think I'll keep these options with me. Oh, and I listed the wrong explosive module: it's the energized membrane type, not the hardener type.

I'd also like to gang up with force recon and assorted others to bust up gate camps with this. Any further thoughts given those circumstances is still welcome. Sorry if I've been a bit sloppy in this, first thread here.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-12-21 03:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Used covert Proteus a lot and this is what I have learned:

You can start engagement at 2k when you decloak. It'll take him about 2 seconds to react unless he's really on the ball. If you use a smokescreen you have 4.5 seconds - 2 seconds so 2.5 seconds before you lock him after he reacts. He won't be that far away before you scram him and apply the two webs. After that its pretty much over.

If you used this fit below you'll have 700 dps OH long enough to vaporize him, you'll also have more than double his HP, no 1600mm plate but you don't need it. You could drop a web for cap booster if you were really worried about the neut but I wouldn't personally.

O/H the webs and guns before you engage, you're webs will match your scram range perfectly.

[Proteus, Gank]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Shadow Serpentis Warp Scrambler
10MN Microwarpdrive II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
'Smokescreen' Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)