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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3401 - 2013-12-17 19:29:43 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Yeh, tell that to CCP! When you right click your ONI (if you have one) - show info, what you get is this:
10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile velocity

pyfa does not say that, neither does EVE - and the actual ship does not reflect any change - so I'm not sure why this is being discussed. None of this changes the practical applications for RLMLs...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3402 - 2013-12-17 19:53:45 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Yeh, tell that to CCP! When you right click your ONI (if you have one) - show info, what you get is this:
10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile velocity

pyfa does not say that, neither does EVE - and the actual ship does not reflect any change - so I'm not sure why this is being discussed. None of this changes the practical applications for RLMLs...

What do you mean? EFT and EVE both are saying the same - 10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile velocity.

I don't see anything about Light Missiles and my EFT is completely ignoring that velocity bonus. I have version 2.21 tho so it's not the last one...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3403 - 2013-12-17 19:57:10 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
33 km with precison is nice, adds some damage and web is always handy but that would be all. Regarding everything else ScytheFi is by far superior ship.
Back to what I was saying : you don't care about anything caldari have to offer. Everything else is speed and that's all. I think you'd like the Vagabond too. And the Stabber if you like heavy destroyers.


Arthur Aihaken wrote:
None of this changes the practical applications for RLMLs...
We already told you many times that yes, RLML are now not ideal for solo vs blob ; you'll have to find another OP weapon. I heard about sentries a lot these days.

Though because you don't like them in one specific utilisation don't mean they are bad. RLML require you to actually think about what you are engaging and about target prioritization. You indeed can't just shoot the first thing in range until he leave and switch to the next target until there is no more ennemies.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3404 - 2013-12-17 20:38:28 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
33 km with precison is nice, adds some damage and web is always handy but that would be all. Regarding everything else ScytheFi is by far superior ship.
Back to what I was saying : you don't care about anything caldari have to offer.

Bouh, this thread is not about me - it's about nerfing Caldari more than is acceptable. If you must know, I like Caldari ships and unlike you I have many of them fitted; Tengu, SNI, RNI, Raven, Drake, ONI, CNI, Cerberus, Caracal, Crow, Hawk... you name it, I think it's more than 10b, perhaps close to 15b altogether so please, please stop insinuating.

What's important is this - medium missile systems are not good enough (HAM) or they are completely ruined (HM and RLM), which is putting Caldari pilots at a disadvantage. From the beginning of this thread you're defending that what is clearly broken and because you're a Gallente in FW corp, your attitude only confirms how biased and dishonest you are. Your disagreement should be considered irrelevant to this topic really.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3405 - 2013-12-17 21:13:20 UTC
To bypass that 40sec crap, here is what I would suggest...

If you want dps & tanky (292dps... 243 other damage types, 1730 m/s, 24k EHP, 669dps omni tank):

Cerberus
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II x3

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Large Shield Extender II

Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Light Missile x6

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

Warrior II x3


If you prefer all in one (207dps, 2855 m/s with same sig as Cerb, 16k EHP, 634dps omni tank)

Scythe Fleet Issue
Internal Force Field Array I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II x2
Ballistic Control System II x2

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Dread Guristas Warp Disruptor
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

Light Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Light Missile x4
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

Warrior II x5
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3406 - 2013-12-17 21:14:37 UTC
This isn't a thread about missiles vs turrets, it's a thread about missiles. Bouh has no place in this thread to begin with.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3407 - 2013-12-17 21:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Quote:
With all 5's you have 29.7kEHP (EM & Thermal below 50% resist)
Run Neut and web, you have 1min 3 sec of cap, if your target doesn't die or has friends arrive you aren't going to be able to warp out and will die horribly.

Sadly Navy Osprey doesn't get the velocity bonus to RLML so;
Scourge Precisions 263 DPS @21.1k 892 volley
Other damage type 220 DPS @ 21.1k 721 volley

Not saying the fit would not work, just that it is very very situational.

You can put that same fit minus web on the Navy Scythe.
29.3k EHP, 2,639m/s (w/o o/h) and around 12% better DPS for everything except Kinetic with nano and 4 BCS.
Or 36k EHP with 3 X BCS, Nano, DCU and 5% more DPS for everything except Kinetic (which is the same for both)


Cap life with MWD on and neut running is kinda pointless, as both won't be on at the same time. If mwd is off, neut is on since i'm probably being tackled. MWD running, there shouldn't be a need to use neut.

You are correct, i had overlooked the velocity bonus, my mistake.


My point is, the ONI and ScyFI are both good ships, when using RLML you just have to fit for max gank (3 bcus is pretty much a requirement). They both have a DAMAGE bonus which far exceeds a RoF bonus with rapid launchers. As i've mentioned numerous times already, damage bonus will allow you to have more wiggle room to kill frigs than RoF bonus since your effective total damage done in 1 clip is better. Even if you were using any other missile type, you would still be doing better than a caracal/CNI when using RLML.

A "good" scyfi is going to do 2 things. Be very fast, with mild sig bump. Or dual prop/armor rep and no sig increase and still be speedy. With a huge tanky ScyFI you have there, your sig will be much larger and easier to hit at distance or close range. Its about 6-10k EHP less than the ONI, and that much quicker at dying. Its not meant to brawl without dualprop.

Take a look at this ONI for you HAM guys out there

[Osprey Navy Issue, HAMs]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

x2 Warrior II

39K EHP, 41K EHP (OH), 11.2K Shield buffer (with 75 dps passive tank, lol), scythe doesn't have cap for invuln field, this does
50%+ resists across the board (55%+ if you OH)
Speed: 2141/3049OH (my previous fit was wrong, i had a crash booster on then, making it slower)
Hits out to 30KM while still being fairly speedy
388/451 OH DPS with faction scourge (1200 volley)
329/381OH DPS w/ faction except scourge (999 volley)
450/524 OH DPS w/ scourge rage
380/442 OH DPS w/ any other flavor

Damage application w/ web/scram, meanwhile still having the speed to kite them until they catch you and realize you're a shield brick, all the while they're being pelted by missiles. Then you land scram/web on a weakened target and start applying close to full damage. To a shield blaster thorax (a common, speedy t1 cruiser), you'll deal max DPS with faction when he's scrammed/webbed. To a MWD stabber, once he's scrammed/webbed, you're doing 311 DPS (which lets admit, will end a stabber quickly). If he's a/b, then 151 DPS. But again, if you know how to fly/kite, as he was burning towards you, you should have wittled a good chunk of shield off of him and just finish him off once he lands.

You ask, what could kill frigates and cruisers? An ONI. Scythe is more specialized at de-frigging i'll admit, but has more difficulty killing cruisers when using missiles in general. This is why the ONI is just as good as the Scythe with missiles. Using hams or RLML are both viable on either hull, they each have their pro's and con's. Just as it should be.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3408 - 2013-12-17 21:43:30 UTC
Oh, and forgot to mention, that fit has 2m 21s of cap life without neut. Plenty for kiting around in.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3409 - 2013-12-17 21:48:13 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
What's important is this - medium missile systems are not good enough (HAM) or they are completely ruined (HM and RLM), which is putting Caldari pilots at a disadvantage. From the beginning of this thread you're defending that what is clearly broken and because you're a Gallente in FW corp, your attitude only confirms how biased and dishonest you are. Your disagreement should be considered irrelevant to this topic really.
Not commenting about "my attitude" because that's stupid, but no, "caldari" are not at a disadvantage because of missiles for two reasons :
- half caldari ships are hybrid ships ;
- missiles are not not good enough, you only have too high expectations for them.
Elusive Panda
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3410 - 2013-12-17 22:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Elusive Panda
"Bouh Revetoile" wrote:

And just to remind you : caldari focus on range, tough shield and fleet warfare. Minmatar focus on guerilla warfare, speed and versatility.


I've seen some convincing argument on both side, but can people please stop saying missiles are good in a fleet environnement?
No current doctrine uses missiles.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3411 - 2013-12-18 00:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
What do you mean? EFT and EVE both are saying the same - 10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile velocity.

Yes, I'm in agreement - there's no velocity or range bonus for light missiles on the ONI.

Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
To bypass that 40sec crap, here is what I would suggest…

I'm not sure that switching to a frigate-class weapon system is an improvement.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3412 - 2013-12-18 02:26:33 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I never said a web wasn't useful, and I said you shouldn't brawl a blaster ship, not that you shouldn't brawl under any circumstances. With missiles you are indeed better as a kiter as nobody will outdamage you at longer range ; but the advantage of missiles is that if something with long range and poor tracking come to you, you can dive and brawl with success.

For a kiter, the web is very helpful to avoid being tackled by a brawler. For missiles, it will also help you apply a lot of dps to your target if you need it.

You can replace the web by a TP by the way, or more tank, or whatever can come to a mid slot. That's the strength of the 6th mid slot, you can do whatever you want with it, but it sure is very useful.

And why don't you put a DCU on the ONI but on the Scythe FI ? As I said, if you try to mimic a Scythe FI with the ONI, you'll obviously be worse. Stop thinking minmatar if you want to use caldari ships.

Now, these are only general advices, and nothing will go as expected during a fight. The thing is to identify your strengths and play with them ; and identify your ennemy weaknesses and play with them too.

So, if you want reasons to fly the ONI over the Scythe FI, here they are :
- tanky shield fit ;
- shield fleet ;
- long range (from kiting with HAM to sniping, including frigate interdiction and whatever) ;
- brawling ;
- EWAR support ;
- ...

And if I'm selling caldari ships, it's because people like you try to present them as flying garbage whereas they are clearly not that bad. Oh, and I don't like when people spread wrong ideas about things.

And if I don't fly them, it's because I chose to fly gallente when everyone was telling me to fly minmatar or caldari (and as opposed to caldari now, that was a good advice when people gave it to me).
You don't fly them but are more than happy to sit there and try to tell others (who have or do fly them) how good they are??

Of course you again missed the point I was trying to make, concerning RLML fit ships by adding Hams to the mix for your comparison.

BLOCKED, I'm tired of wasting my time as you simply twist what is said to suit your own agenda.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3413 - 2013-12-18 02:46:33 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Oh, and forgot to mention, that fit has 2m 21s of cap life without neut. Plenty for kiting around in.

I think you need to look at your DPS for the Hams again.
Without implants;
Navy Scourge 341 - other 284
Scourge Rage 400 - other 333
Scourge Javelin 267 - other 222

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3414 - 2013-12-18 03:20:53 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
BLOCKED, I'm tired of wasting my time as you simply twist what is said to suit your own agenda.

Welcome to the "enlightened" side of the discussion. I think it's time to get back on-track and discuss the best ways that we can utilize the new RLMLs and RHMLs. All this turret vs. launcher or drone vs. laser vs. hybrid vs. missile is just a distraction. Since the devs don't seem to have any genuine interest (or perhaps time) to respond to any of our concerns, we're on our own. Since we can't get reimbursed for the SP we put into training, and because I suspect some of us still run missions and actually like missiles and Caldari ships - let's turn this on its head and figure out how we can exploit it to our advantage. Donning my "thinking cap"...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3415 - 2013-12-18 04:36:19 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Oh, and forgot to mention, that fit has 2m 21s of cap life without neut. Plenty for kiting around in.

I think you need to look at your DPS for the Hams again.
Without implants;
Navy Scourge 341 - other 284
Scourge Rage 400 - other 333
Scourge Javelin 267 - other 222


Thats the DPS of the fit, so that includes the 2 warriors (hence the x2 warriors at bottom of fit description). Even removing my warriors my numbers aren't as low as yours. I think you need to recheck your numbers. I have no implants/boosters on that fit.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3416 - 2013-12-18 04:48:16 UTC
People keep quoting Bouh thereby bypassing that I blocked his posts. People need to stop doing that. My brain cells are precious.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3417 - 2013-12-18 06:05:36 UTC
Just a brief PvE blurb on RHMLs... If you can fit a few of these to a cruiser or battlecruiser that gives damage bonuses, these are worthwhile considering. Faction launchers hold 26 rounds, and without a ROF bonus to more rapidly diminish these do come in handy for an initial mission "burst". I was able to comfortably fit 2 of these on a pair of Gnosis with only a single Medium Ancillary rig, and still have room for another pair of HMLs. I like the Gnosis because you can fit 5 launchers and you get a +25% heavy missile bonus without having to train anything. Any damage to hull or armor is super cheap (<50k ISK!), so it's great for mission running.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3418 - 2013-12-18 06:39:46 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Just a brief PvE blurb on RHMLs... If you can fit a few of these to a cruiser or battlecruiser that gives damage bonuses, these are worthwhile considering. Faction launchers hold 26 rounds, and without a ROF bonus to more rapidly diminish these do come in handy for an initial mission "burst". I was able to comfortably fit 2 of these on a pair of Gnosis with only a single Medium Ancillary rig, and still have room for another pair of HMLs. I like the Gnosis because you can fit 5 launchers and you get a +25% heavy missile bonus without having to train anything. Any damage to hull or armor is super cheap (<50k ISK!), so it's great for mission running.


Clearly working as intended. Ugh
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3419 - 2013-12-18 07:04:26 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I'm not sure that switching to a frigate-class weapon system is an improvement.

No, it's called protest and your sustained dps is actually higher than with rapid launchers.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3420 - 2013-12-18 07:18:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Just a brief PvE blurb on RHMLs... If you can fit a few of these to a cruiser or battlecruiser that gives damage bonuses, these are worthwhile considering. Faction launchers hold 26 rounds, and without a ROF bonus to more rapidly diminish these do come in handy for an initial mission "burst".

Mission "burst" LOL. You can try whatever but 40 seconds reload will never be good for missioning. Unless you can clear the room and reload while hitting the gate and warping to a next pocket, you are losing time and in any serious mission running business time is everything. If you want cheap and effective fit Rigors and TP on a Cruise missile Raven and you are good to go. 40 seconds with small clip will never work, no matter what you do.