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Where are the CSM 8 Summer summit minutes ?

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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#81 - 2013-12-17 14:42:59 UTC
Well, it is very likely that the minutes will not be released until 2014 -literally. Shocked


Ripard Teg and other CSM aren't thrilled about it.

No matter what you think about the CSM, we have this company called CCP which is essentially putting to waste A LOT of work by highly commited players representing "us", a work which they -IMO- shouldn't be doing when there's professionals (stenographers, transcripters, you name it) who could and should do it.

I'm not happy with it. Evil

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Maxxor Brutor
Borderline Procurements
#82 - 2013-12-17 14:52:53 UTC
Guess Dolan took a paintball too many...
Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
#83 - 2013-12-17 16:33:18 UTC
Dear CCP.

Could we please have someone who cares more for and has more respect for the CSM project actually put in charge of dealing with the CSM at this point? This is a complete disgrace. The only reason they are not done at this point, is because Dolan has procrastinated for months, and now he's likely gone on vacation till the new year? I certainly hope this comes up at his next job review. A good employee not only gets the stuff he enjoys doing done, but also puts his head down and does the crap work on time/target as well. I'm sure tons of coders at CCP don't want to dig into the old crappy code and fix it either, but it has to be done and not put off forever.

Why should I bother voting next time if Dolan and Dolan's boss/supervisor doesn't give a crap?
Implying Implications
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2013-12-17 16:49:30 UTC
Should have shot Dolan after he got the job done, not before.

hello
Prince Kobol
#85 - 2013-12-17 17:04:12 UTC
Draekas Darkwater wrote:
Dear CCP.

Could we please have someone who cares more for and has more respect for the CSM project actually put in charge of dealing with the CSM at this point? This is a complete disgrace. The only reason they are not done at this point, is because Dolan has procrastinated for months, and now he's likely gone on vacation till the new year? I certainly hope this comes up at his next job review. A good employee not only gets the stuff he enjoys doing done, but also puts his head down and does the crap work on time/target as well. I'm sure tons of coders at CCP don't want to dig into the old crappy code and fix it either, but it has to be done and not put off forever.

Why should I bother voting next time if Dolan and Dolan's boss/supervisor doesn't give a crap?



These type of whining self righteous posts are getting more and more common these days and it is pathetic.

Get a grip ffs.

Maybe CCP Dolan hasn't completed the minutes because as an employee he does what he is told?

Maybe because who ever he reports to would prefer he spends his time working on Eve then pissing his time away on a document that means nothing and effects nothing?

If its a choice to have CCP Dolan or any other Dev work on Eve or mess about with some document that effects nothing then I know what I would prefer them to spend their time on.

Whilst a few people might like to have the CSM minutes (god knows why) in the grand schemes of things it would be a very low priority.

These type of whining self righteous posts are getting more and more common these days and it is pathetic.


Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
#86 - 2013-12-17 17:36:55 UTC
Dear CSM8.

First off, alot of us, myself included really appreciate the time and effort that you all put forth into working on our behalf on the CSM. I've had a lot of patience here, waiting for the minutes to come out, that you guys put 10s of hours into putting together, without pay, on your own time. I read blogs and listen to podcasts and even Ali's space hangouts and have heard many of you comment on the inevitable, "where are the minutes" questions that constantly come up.

So that said...

Where is the outrage about the minutes from you guys here? Its disgraceful that its taken this long, and at most all I ever hear is complete silence or a mild, "Well, its in CCP's hands now, whelp". I can understand giving CCP a few weeks or a month max after they were all submitted as a grace period. But FFS isn't it about time to get off your hands and start raising a serious stink about this crap? When is enough, enough?

Isn't it time to start getting loud and public in a joint public statement berating the entire process? Isn't it time to push such a statement on every EVE news/blog/podcast site there is, and maybe any general MMO news site that'll pick it up? Because sitting on your hands and privately poking Dolan about it obviously is not freaking working.

I understand that you have to work with CCP for the rest of your term and all, but you MUST see how bad this looks upon yourselves and the entire CSM process as a whole at this point. It looks to me at least that CCP Dolan couldn't be bothered at this point, and since he's not being forced to do it, by extension his bosses don't give a crap either. Because all conversation between CCP and the CSM is under NDA, the only portal that we as CSM voters have into that dialogue are the minutes themselves. I don't care about trying to get some super secret revelations out of the damn things, I want and need some clear view as to how the CSM reps I voted for are actually representing me.

I've voted in every CSM election so far, and am was glad that each CSM election seemed to move the process forward, even if in small steps. I was happy that it appeared to be moving the same way this time around as well. At this point in the term, however, its looking more like 1 step forward, 2 steps back. If you all don't stand up and defend the process, then why should anyone give a **** about the process going forward? If Dolan isn't up to the task of handling the CSM, including all aspects of it, then should you not be pushing CCP management to choose someone more qualified/willing to do it?

Hell, the next election is coming up in the not to distant future at this point. Will we have the minutes by then? CCP doesn't seem to care, do any of you care strongly enough to start making a real stink about this? If the entire minutes process is flawed and needs to be adjusted, then fine, do that for next time. But this wasn't CCP's first walk in the park with the minutes process this past summer. They knew what was going to be involved, and didn't change it ahead of time. They made you spend 10s of hours working for free putting the minutes together, and now clearly Dolan is just like "didn't want those minutes anyway, SUCKERS!".

Until this point I've been more pissed off at CCP than the CSM regarding this, but that's switching now with each passing week. A big part of your job as I see it, is to stand up for the player base when something/someone clearly isn't working as intended. This is a pretty clear cut example of that.
Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
#87 - 2013-12-17 17:50:07 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


These type of whining self righteous posts are getting more and more common these days and it is pathetic.

Get a grip ffs.

Maybe CCP Dolan hasn't completed the minutes because as an employee he does what he is told?

Maybe because who ever he reports to would prefer he spends his time working on Eve then pissing his time away on a document that means nothing and effects nothing?

If its a choice to have CCP Dolan or any other Dev work on Eve or mess about with some document that effects nothing then I know what I would prefer them to spend their time on.

Whilst a few people might like to have the CSM minutes (god knows why) in the grand schemes of things it would be a very low priority.

These type of whining self righteous posts are getting more and more common these days and it is pathetic.




If that's what Dolan's boss's have told him to do, then its even more disgraceful.

If CCP doesn't want the CSM, then fine, make that call and just end it. CCP themselves made up the whole CSM process, including publishing the minutes from the summits. Its not a new thing. They knew the process going into the summer summit, and that the minutes would be required work afterwards. They've made this group of unpaid volunteers 10s of hours of their own time putting them together and submitting them for review, only just to toss them out the window?

If you don't find the CSM valuable and think CCP should just get rid of them, then fine, that's your opinion.

I do think they are valuable, and the minutes are the only real window into CCP/CSM communications that are otherwise completely NDAd and unavailable for dissection. For those who care about the CSM, they are a valuable way to see if the CSM rep you voted for is actually representing your views how you thought or they said they would during the election process. Dolan is just a community rep, not a coder/artist/designer/other dev. He was specifically put in charge of the CSM, including all the work that goes with that (like the minutes). For that reason, Dolan needs to get these done and/or his boss needs to lock him in a room for a week and get them done. Enough screwing around already.
Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
#88 - 2013-12-17 17:52:46 UTC
Implying Implications wrote:
Should have shot Dolan after he got the job done, not before.


Or doubled the amount if they weren't published before the stream went live. :P
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#89 - 2013-12-17 17:56:45 UTC
Draekas Darkwater wrote:
Dear CSM8.

First off, alot of us, myself included really appreciate the time and effort that you all put forth into working on our behalf on the CSM. I've had a lot of patience here, waiting for the minutes to come out, that you guys put 10s of hours into putting together, without pay, on your own time. I read blogs and listen to podcasts and even Ali's space hangouts and have heard many of you comment on the inevitable, "where are the minutes" questions that constantly come up.

So that said...

Where is the outrage about the minutes from you guys here?


"Here" isn't the place for the CSM to be outraged at CCP. They have more effective channels than the public forums.

They're pretty outraged from what I read in their blogs.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-12-17 17:57:44 UTC
Question, are we talking about minutes in the classic sense of someone recording in brief summary the key points raised by attendees of a meeting?

Because by the sounds of all the rationalizations for not producing said minutes, one would think what's actually being talked about is the invention of cold fusion, solving world hunger, or something more complex as a coded project called 'minutes''...

...and given the time delay, when will my Mr. Fusion fueled De Lorean be available for purchase from CCP?

Would you like to know more?
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#91 - 2013-12-17 19:41:43 UTC
bumping this for attention.

Where are the minutes?

Also CCP should be aware that we want to see the minutes so that we can hold our CSM representatives to account, that is why they are essential, it's not about sneak previews of up and coming stuff. It's that we the community are your largest stakeholder in the ongoing development of the EVE online game.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#92 - 2013-12-17 19:46:23 UTC
I'm wondering what /exactly/ was said during those minutes to delay its release for so long?

I'm going to go all tinfoil here and say that some serious stuff was discussed, CCP is playing China and is heavily rewriting the minutes to cover whatever was discussed...

...
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#93 - 2013-12-17 19:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Ali Aras wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:
lack of recognition at work and being underpaid – all these factors can strengthen tendencies towards burnout.

you mean like 'working' for a literally never satisfied playerbase who only ever notices the body to **** on them?

Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate, actually.



Way to go at representing us. CSM representatives are rapidly becoming ccp 'crowd control managers' and 'message police', give it a few more years and you'll actually get salaries and a pension at which point you will be as far removed from your original function as someone learning to **** icecream through their anus.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#94 - 2013-12-20 13:21:22 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Anyone want to place bets if the winter summit starts before the summer minutes are released?


It's not Christmas yet, maybe Santa Claus will deliver the minutes Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Broker Agent
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2013-12-20 13:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Broker Agent
CCP have really dropped the ball on community management recently, with the blink fiasco, secretly giving out game items, the live event put in the hands of scheming players (good for those players, but CCP should have accounted for it) and the missing minutes etc.

The minutes are important because they represent the players view of the work the CSM does for us. Without the minutes the elections are litterally a joke. Frankly we need to see that CCP are working in the interest of the players right now, but it just doesn't look like they are. The current 5 year plan towards a new Jesus feature has a fair few people concerned especially as it seems that other promises from CCP are being abandoned for this new Jesus feature (PI, Avatar Content, etc. Even POSes and SOV sound like they're being side stepped from the point of view of a sceptic).

This is a disgrace.

PS: I think also the people who are aiming their anger at the CSM have missed the point. The CSM are what CCP allow them to be, and the ultimate responsibility for the CSM's usefulness fall in CCP's lap, not theirs. They put a lot of work and effort into what they do just to be swept aside by the people they are working for free to help.
RAW23
#96 - 2013-12-20 14:18:12 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

These type of whining self righteous posts are getting more and more common these days and it is pathetic.

Get a grip ffs.

Maybe CCP Dolan hasn't completed the minutes because as an employee he does what he is told?

Maybe because who ever he reports to would prefer he spends his time working on Eve then pissing his time away on a document that means nothing and effects nothing?

If its a choice to have CCP Dolan or any other Dev work on Eve or mess about with some document that effects nothing then I know what I would prefer them to spend their time on.

Whilst a few people might like to have the CSM minutes (god knows why) in the grand schemes of things it would be a very low priority.

These type of whining self righteous posts are getting more and more common these days and it is pathetic.




Nice ring composition but shame about the content.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#97 - 2013-12-22 11:09:26 UTC
Broker Agent wrote:
CCP have really dropped the ball on community management recently, with the blink fiasco, secretly giving out game items, the live event put in the hands of scheming players (good for those players, but CCP should have accounted for it) and the missing minutes etc.

The minutes are important because they represent the players view of the work the CSM does for us. Without the minutes the elections are litterally a joke. Frankly we need to see that CCP are working in the interest of the players right now, but it just doesn't look like they are. The current 5 year plan towards a new Jesus feature has a fair few people concerned especially as it seems that other promises from CCP are being abandoned for this new Jesus feature (PI, Avatar Content, etc. Even POSes and SOV sound like they're being side stepped from the point of view of a sceptic).

This is a disgrace.

PS: I think also the people who are aiming their anger at the CSM have missed the point. The CSM are what CCP allow them to be, and the ultimate responsibility for the CSM's usefulness fall in CCP's lap, not theirs. They put a lot of work and effort into what they do just to be swept aside by the people they are working for free to help.


I couldn't have said it better myself. We want accountability from CCP and our CSM and the minutes are the only way we can have it.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2013-12-28 13:47:59 UTC
Bump.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#99 - 2013-12-28 14:58:05 UTC
jeez you guys are impatient

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ryann Padecain
Doomheim
#100 - 2013-12-28 15:17:58 UTC
jeez you guys are non responsive