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ECM is still broken

Author
Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-12-17 02:50:59 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
[center][b]






THIS THIS THIS. Haven't seen a better post ever
Impala59
Amazing Super Slackers
#22 - 2013-12-17 02:59:31 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Because of falcon.


Damn it! I was going to say that.
Dufnut
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#23 - 2013-12-17 03:16:32 UTC
Intelligence.

you've never had to fight Goonfleet have you?? Lol

Imagine fleeting up to go pew pew and save something. the people you have to fight are the goons. You're inbound to your destination. There is 1, or more goonswarm spy's in your corp/alliance. Goonswarm know's what your fleet consists of, how many, and what you're fits are.

In the period of time it takes you to reach your destination, the goons have swapped out to a direct counter of whatever you're bringing, and are sittng next to a titan watching pr0n waiting to drop in.




OP - you say you want goodfights? Two people with gun's - shooting at one another. In your eyes consists of a good fight.

Let's completely ignore intelligence and information, tactics, planning and organisation. As if you introduce this into a fight, it requires you to use your brain, adapt - roll with it or at the very least be prepared for it. As you are right. these are completely, 100% unfair things, they take away from the simplicity of simply being able to aim your gun and scream "HE'Z A TERRURST!!" while pulling the trigger and walking away with a few dogtags.

How .... dare.... we........ have to even consider... all other aspects of the playing field when it comes to war!!


To be honest.... maybe you'd be better off playing Call of Duty. It caters to people whom find thinking about too many things at once difficult.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-12-17 03:36:14 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:

..Monday morning quarterbacking redacted...

Next time you go roaming, perhaps try bringing your own ECM fleet with which to dogpile the opponent. You'll win and it'll feel good.

Yuck!

TBH my main point was actually with the nature of ECM itself actually, and it's 100% 'your boned' implementation when it lands. The negative impact of being completely jammed out is way out of whack with other Ewar models (i.e. percent effect webs, % range to damps, etc). The cycle times as a mitigant are themselves offset by just fitting multiple jams, one is bound to land and ergo the enemy is still 100% farked. All it takes is one jam out of multiple in each cycle attempt to perma jam...

In short, ECM is OP. CCP as much as admitted this with the recent addition of sensor compensation skills, but they haven't gone far enough to fix this broken mechanic.


Let me see, ECM is so OP that this is why people bring their own ECM ships to jam out the other ECM ships and call them primary to clear them off the field yes?
GreenSeed
#25 - 2013-12-17 10:50:44 UTC
if you are going to use that many images, you might as well go all the way and use comic sans as font.
Vidua Arte Album
Epic Boo Bees
#26 - 2013-12-17 11:31:21 UTC
Well, whatever you say just makes me more happy about having ecm skills! :D
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-12-17 11:38:25 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Even with the new 'sensor compensation' skills or an ECCM fitted, ECM is way OP IMHO.




ECM in fact is very weak. BUt its effect is too pwoerful. Its impossible to balance a mechanis that is boudn to frustrate one side or the other.

ECM need a total rewoark on mechanics. THe effect must be changes. Not be able to lock anything is an absolute effect and must go.

I for once woudl propose somethign like:

Increase the power of ECM modules so they jam MORE often. WHen they jam, instead of loosing locks and being unable to lock, your locks are exchanged by lock into other things in grid. That include friendlies.

That way ECM become a tool that cause damage spreading. A gang under ECM effect will have some of its ships shoto wrong targets until they can correct themselves. But these peopel will not be as frustrated as the old ECM targets. Also THe mechanic is very weak if you want to use a falcon to help a single ship. BEcause if the enemy is alone he has very little options for target reselection, and the falcon is likely to become the target then.

But the tool become VERY powerful on reducing the coordiantion of larger groups.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-12-17 11:39:58 UTC
OP forgot which knife had the poison.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2013-12-17 12:25:40 UTC
posting in a stealth "read my ****" thread.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Oxylan
Blood Fanatics
#30 - 2013-12-17 13:20:37 UTC
RADAR JAMMED

If it bleed we can kill it.

Sand Shardani
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-12-17 17:20:18 UTC
To be fair, they had 14! jammers vs 2 ECCM modules and 1 remote ECCM.

What you purposed in the link is that 2 ECCM should counter ALL the ECM, no matter how many are brought to the field.

How is that fair?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-12-17 17:26:01 UTC
Sand Shardani wrote:
To be fair, they had 14! jammers vs 2 ECCM modules and 1 remote ECCM.

What you purposed in the link is that 2 ECCM should counter ALL the ECM, no matter how many are brought to the field.

How is that fair?

Valid point. My root issue is with the way ECM works and its taking you completely out of a fight with a button press -- more so perma-jamming keeping you out of it, even when you have used the prescribed counter module.... Updated.
NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#33 - 2013-12-17 17:34:56 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:

..Monday morning quarterbacking redacted...

Next time you go roaming, perhaps try bringing your own ECM fleet with which to dogpile the opponent. You'll win and it'll feel good.

Yuck!

TBH my main point was actually with the nature of ECM itself actually, and it's 100% 'your boned' implementation when it lands. The negative impact of being completely jammed out is way out of whack with other Ewar models (i.e. percent effect webs, % range to damps, etc). The cycle times as a mitigant are themselves offset by just fitting multiple jams, one is bound to land and ergo the enemy is still 100% farked. All it takes is one jam out of multiple in each cycle attempt to perma jam...

In short, ECM is OP. CCP as much as admitted this with the recent addition of sensor compensation skills, but they haven't gone far enough to fix this broken mechanic.


Ewar when used correctly is brutal. Ever seen what a Rapier and Moros can do? Or for the high-sec decers a Keres? I think Ewar is very balanced in it's current state. Fleet comp is everything and far to many groups run fleets with Logi & DPS only.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#34 - 2013-12-17 17:39:42 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:

..Monday morning quarterbacking redacted...

Next time you go roaming, perhaps try bringing your own ECM fleet with which to dogpile the opponent. You'll win and it'll feel good.

Yuck!

TBH my main point was actually with the nature of ECM itself actually, and it's 100% 'your boned' implementation when it lands. The negative impact of being completely jammed out is way out of whack with other Ewar models (i.e. percent effect webs, % range to damps, etc). The cycle times as a mitigant are themselves offset by just fitting multiple jams, one is bound to land and ergo the enemy is still 100% farked. All it takes is one jam out of multiple in each cycle attempt to perma jam...

In short, ECM is OP. CCP as much as admitted this with the recent addition of sensor compensation skills, but they haven't gone far enough to fix this broken mechanic.


The fix is, instead of the ECM effect being binary, to replace it by reducing the stats of PVP/logi modules. So a 50% chance to jam becomes an 50% reduction in stats. Nothing much will change, but removing the feeling of powerlessness and the ability to "press butan" will reduce these ECM rants considerably.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2013-12-17 17:46:49 UTC
Buy marauder.

Fit bastion module.

Activate same.

Problem solved.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.

Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#36 - 2013-12-17 17:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Sand Shardani wrote:
To be fair, they had 14! jammers vs 2 ECCM modules and 1 remote ECCM.

What you purposed in the link is that 2 ECCM should counter ALL the ECM, no matter how many are brought to the field.

How is that fair?


He wants ECM removed from the game, period. Only without explicitly saying it. Once ECM is removed it will then be sensor damps, then TD, then logi, until everything is a DPS race.

Once the anti-ECM crowd get their foot in the door they won't stop.
NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#37 - 2013-12-17 18:08:16 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Even with the new 'sensor compensation' skills or an ECCM fitted, ECM is way OP IMHO.




ECM in fact is very weak. BUt its effect is too pwoerful. Its impossible to balance a mechanis that is boudn to frustrate one side or the other.

ECM need a total rewoark on mechanics. THe effect must be changes. Not be able to lock anything is an absolute effect and must go.

I for once woudl propose somethign like:

Increase the power of ECM modules so they jam MORE often. WHen they jam, instead of loosing locks and being unable to lock, your locks are exchanged by lock into other things in grid. That include friendlies.

That way ECM become a tool that cause damage spreading. A gang under ECM effect will have some of its ships shoto wrong targets until they can correct themselves. But these peopel will not be as frustrated as the old ECM targets. Also THe mechanic is very weak if you want to use a falcon to help a single ship. BEcause if the enemy is alone he has very little options for target reselection, and the falcon is likely to become the target then.

But the tool become VERY powerful on reducing the coordiantion of larger groups.


If ECM functioned as you suggest wouldn't it decimate an alliance like yours? In high sec that would cause criminal flags and invoke the wrath of concord. Ewar is very balanced as it stands.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#38 - 2013-12-17 18:10:59 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
stuff


tell that to ccp rise.

oh yes ecm days are numbered its just waiting to hit the top of the backlog and presto.

it will change.

i have come up with some neat ideas on how to make it a usefull mechanic that does not feel like you are either kicking or getting kicked in the nuts.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#39 - 2013-12-17 18:15:30 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
OP forgot which knife had the poison.



Vizzini wrote:
You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#40 - 2013-12-17 19:55:19 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Sand Shardani wrote:
To be fair, they had 14! jammers vs 2 ECCM modules and 1 remote ECCM.

What you purposed in the link is that 2 ECCM should counter ALL the ECM, no matter how many are brought to the field.

How is that fair?


He wants ECM removed from the game, period. Only without explicitly saying it. Once ECM is removed it will then be sensor damps, then TD, then logi, until everything is a DPS race.

Once the anti-ECM crowd get their foot in the door they won't stop.

That's the way things work

eve is real

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?