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Frigates vs capitals: Closing the circle
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Temuken Radzu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-12-16 21:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Temuken Radzu
For a while now i have been bothered by the fact that frigates are rarely used in big capital fights.
Simply because they are unable to break the tank of dozens spidertanking carriers they are screwed for ships with far more firepower. Result: even more capitals are used tp get the dps needed (most of the time also spidertanking!)

My idea is to make Capitals and Supers far more vulnerable to frigates, forcing to use destroyers and cruisers to deal with it, closing the circle
The idea is to have all capitals modules that can be selected when the capital is targeted and destroyed only by frigates.

Things like weapons and other high slot items like remote repair, obviously rendering capital spider tanking useless when faced with a decent armount of frigates unless they are dealth with other ships.

When the ships are targeted by frigs, new target options should be available from the right-click menu or the radial menu:
- Attack High slots
- Attack Ship Hull (the ship itself not the hull armor)

Special ammunition can be loaded to small turrets that can be used to damage the subystems. Very expensive

Special Phasing munition: it can phase trough energy fields like shields but it can only deliver a very small payload of damage to armor materials. Making it useless against advanced armor alloys like the ships main hulls but still effective against far less heavy armored high slot modules.
Very short range. Can only be used for frigate class ships.

When having selected the ammo type the frig does randomly damage a module in that slot type fitted on the capital.
Capital modules will have a resonable armound of hitpoints separate from the hitpoints used for overheating so they are not instantly destroyed. But when coupled with a decent armount of frigates the capital is quickly crippled

Of course this could be countered by the capitals by using nanite paste, but that won't last forever and takes a long time to use. And repair paste should not be able to repair the destroyed modules.
Thus another counter should be introduced: in the form of the support frigates. They should have a simulair targeting system like the attack frigates but they can repair the modules.
Support frigates should be the only other way other then repair paste to repair subsystems, forcing attackers also to use destroyers.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2 - 2013-12-16 21:36:19 UTC
Honestly, I cannot see this being effective except by targeting exposed systems.

And that, by using specific weapons designed for that effect.

Need to attack the shields themselves? EMP weapons.

Want to make the shields lose some resistances?
Specialty weapon, using an EMP weapon base. Could be something as simple as a script, in the device.

BUT, I would not endorse this doing actual damage, just putting a temporary hole into the resistance profile is enough. Have someone exploit it while it is active.

Maybe a 30 second effect, the thermal hardeners go down on the armor, overloading the compensators... while the thermal is weakened have a buddy use thermal weapons.

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Sunglasses Legacy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-12-16 21:40:33 UTC
AF blobs. AF blobs everywhere.

There's no place for frigates in direct frigate vs. capital warfare because the whole point of a capital is to be very tough. A frigate versus a battleship is one thing, but versus a capital ship is another.

I think the idea of targeting specific modules has been suggested before, and my take on this implementation of it is, while cool, that it would make capitals useless if a frigate could kill a capital in a David-and-Goliath-esque manner. Frigates aren't intended to bring down the biggest ships in Eve.
Temuken Radzu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-12-16 21:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Temuken Radzu
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Honestly, I cannot see this being effective except by targeting exposed systems.

And that, by using specific weapons designed for that effect.

Need to attack the shields themselves? EMP weapons.

Want to make the shields lose some resistances?
Specialty weapon, using an EMP weapon base. Could be something as simple as a script, in the device.

BUT, I would not endorse this doing actual damage, just putting a temporary hole into the resistance profile is enough. Have someone exploit it while it is active.

Maybe a 30 second effect, the thermal hardeners go down on the armor, overloading the compensators... while the thermal is weakened have a buddy use thermal weapons.


That tactic could also be nice, but i believe that could be a job for a special sabotage class vessel, preferable a t2 frig.
Buy yeah, you are right. Attacking the main tanking systems from the capital by normal frigs is maybe to much.

Prehaps the frigs should only be able to attack high slots. Model wise they are technicly already on the structure of ships. (love to see if remote repairs and other active high slot modules get models in the future)

Sunglasses Legacy wrote:
AF blobs. AF blobs everywhere.

There's no place for frigates in direct frigate vs. capital warfare because the whole point of a capital is to be very tough. A frigate versus a battleship is one thing, but versus a capital ship is another.

I think the idea of targeting specific modules has been suggested before, and my take on this implementation of it is, while cool, that it would make capitals useless if a frigate could kill a capital in a David-and-Goliath-esque manner. Frigates aren't intended to bring down the biggest ships in Eve.


Just because they are so tough they are now fielded in massive blobs while having hardly any sub-capital class counters simply because they are unbable to break the tank.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#5 - 2013-12-16 21:49:44 UTC
Isn't this basically the point of bombers?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-12-16 22:36:37 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Isn't this basically the point of bombers?

Pretty much this. Bombers won't kill supers but they sure will blap all the fighter bombers leaving the supers vulnerable to attack by other capitals.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-12-16 22:41:18 UTC
Sounds a bit like Independence Day ... lone 'nam F4 pilot takes out massive alien super cap in a fast jet.

TBH what you will get is massive TIDI as the alliances field blobs of noobs in cheap frigates.
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#8 - 2013-12-16 23:57:48 UTC
I thought people didn't use frigs near supers because they just get smartbombed right away...

Blue-Fire Best Fire
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#9 - 2013-12-17 01:59:59 UTC
I think frigates that run into Capitals, Supercapitals or Titans in an attempt to bump them should explode on impact.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lamar Muvila
Muvila War Industries
#10 - 2013-12-17 04:42:03 UTC
What about giving carriers and titans medical clones and a docking bay that could only hold frigs and destroyers? That would make them more useful not? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they just massive drone and repair boats now? :/ Well maybe not titans but carriers. This would make it easier to keep frigs on the grid but I don't know if it would be balanced.

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Yolo
Unknown Nation
#11 - 2013-12-17 04:55:47 UTC
This would be nicely implemented if small weapons caused minor heat on capital ships.

Thus a swarm of frigates could overheat a capital, forcing it into a passive state, not running any modules to avoid crippling damage. relying on remote repairs for its survival.

Imagine having a titan on field that is being pinned down by frigates, its not like they will kill it, but if it burns off its weapons/doomsday it will burn out its high-slots.


Question is balancing, how many ships would you need and what would be a counter module , some kind of heat sink or would you be able to burn nanite repair paste to cool the ship off.

This would mean that newbies and low-sp pilots would be a valuable asset in both offence and defense,

- since 2003, bitches
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#12 - 2013-12-17 05:01:48 UTC
Valkyrie pilots would be good for this "targeting exposed systems" job.
commander aze
#13 - 2013-12-17 05:29:11 UTC
Temuken Radzu wrote:
For a while now i have been bothered by the fact that frigates are rarely used in big capital fights.
Simply because they are unable to break the tank of dozens spidertanking carriers they are screwed for ships with far more firepower. Result: even more capitals are used tp get the dps needed (most of the time also spidertanking!)

My idea is to make Capitals and Supers far more vulnerable to frigates, forcing to use destroyers and cruisers to deal with it, closing the circle
The idea is to have all capitals modules that can be selected when the capital is targeted and destroyed only by frigates.

Things like:
-Weapons, other high slot items like remote repair, obviously rendering capital spider tanking useless when faced with a decent armount of frigates unless they are dealth with other ships.
-Repair systems/ hardeners, crippling the ships tank

When the ships are targeted by frigs, new target options should be available from the right-click menu or the radial menu:
- Attack High slots
- Attack Ship Hull (the ship itself not the hull armor)

When having selected a slot type the frig does randomly damages a module in that slot type fitted on the capital.
Capital will slots have a resonable armound of hitpoints separate from the hitpoints used for overheating so they are not instantly destroyed. But when coupled with a decent armount of frigates the capital is quickly crippled

Of course this could be countered by the capitals by using nanite paste, but that won't last forever and takes a long time to use. And repair paste should not be able to repair the destroyed modules
Thus another counter should be introduced: in the form of the support frigates. They should have a simulair targeting system like the attack frigates but they can repair the modules.
Support frigates should be the only other way other then repair paste to repair subsystems, forcing attackers also to use destroyers.

I like where your heart is... but frigs are not used because they die from bombers fast.

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Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#14 - 2013-12-17 09:47:04 UTC
EVE isn't a loop based system- instead, you get certain ships or weapon systems that punch above/below the current ship class.

Natural, fairly unimaginative progression would be a 'heavy bomber' cruiser class that fires citadel torpedoes and siege bombs (massive explosion radius that reduces effectiveness vs. sub-caps obviously).
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#15 - 2013-12-17 10:22:07 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
EVE isn't a loop based system- instead, you get certain ships or weapon systems that punch above/below the current ship class.


No, it is not. But CCP try to make it real life simulator and I see OP as a very interesting option, how new pilots can be something else but tacklers.

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2013-12-17 13:43:50 UTC
But how are a frigate's piddly little guns going to get through shields and armour that a doomsday can't?
Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-12-17 14:12:34 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
But how are a frigate's piddly little guns going to get through shields and armour that a doomsday can't?


If the graphical effect of shields as a (more or less streched) sphere were put into place I think this could work out somehow.
Frigs and larger things can be detected by this shield and are forced to stay soutside of that sphere. Everything smaller (Valkyre Pilots and Fighters/-Bombers) can fly into it and attack the turrets/installed modules. Dogfights could happen under the protection of the shpis's shields or in open space where eve-ships can attack them aswell.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2013-12-17 14:18:24 UTC
Mascha Tzash wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
But how are a frigate's piddly little guns going to get through shields and armour that a doomsday can't?


If the graphical effect of shields as a (more or less streched) sphere were put into place I think this could work out somehow.
Frigs and larger things can be detected by this shield and are forced to stay soutside of that sphere. Everything smaller (Valkyre Pilots and Fighters/-Bombers) can fly into it and attack the turrets/installed modules. Dogfights could happen under the protection of the shpis's shields or in open space where eve-ships can attack them aswell.



But my battleship's bullets can't get through the shield, and they're smaller than a fighter...

And aren't valkyrie pilots going to be on a different server entirely, like dustbunnies?

And how can they attack the modules through several feet of armour plate that can deflect doomsdays?
Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-12-17 14:33:06 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

But my battleship's bullets can't get through the shield, and they're smaller than a fighter...
And aren't valkyrie pilots going to be on a different server entirely, like dustbunnies?

Perhaps not, I cannot look into the future and if I could I would not tell. Twisted

Danika Princip wrote:

And how can they attack the modules through several feet of armour plate that can deflect doomsdays?

At this point I'd like to ask for a moment of silence for the designer of the death star thermal vent who died a terrible choking death. But he deserved it somehow.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#20 - 2013-12-17 14:37:09 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
But my battleship's bullets can't get through the shield, and they're smaller than a fighter...

And aren't valkyrie pilots going to be on a different server entirely, like dustbunnies?

And how can they attack the modules through several feet of armour plate that can deflect doomsdays?

This.


If frigates are going to have a significant role against capitals, then they need to not attempt to do so against the strengths of the capital directly.
The David vs Goliath analogy is useful here, as it points out that a larger opponent can have a weakness, yes, but otherwise you won't beat them with brute force.

That means you have two possible directions, from what I can see.

1> The capital has some weakness, which only a smaller ship can exploit. (This leads to a minigame at best, not advisable)
Or try to overwhelm with numbers, as follows...
2> A grouping of smaller ships can have the collective impact of a larger ship.
I strongly suggest number 2, as it reflects what EVE is supposed to want, group effort and play.

Bring in a command ship, have it use a specialty reverse booster set.

Shields: Ships in fleet lose 20% of their raw shields, transferred to augment the command ship on a point for point basis.
This would increase the signature in a way similar to existing shield boosters.
Weapon Power: Capacitor diverted to command ship from supporting vessels, in order to power capital grade weapon systems that are inoperable unboosted.
Damage resistance: The command ship is able to pass on power surges and heat excess, along with kinetic dampeners needs to the supporting ships.

This means the fleet would fight through the command ship, and the vulnerability of the command ship would actually be the fleet itself, as picking off the individual ships would be possibly more effective than firing directly on the command ship.

Just a thought.

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