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Vigilant and other hybrid ships that will change.
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Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-11-22 15:44:16 UTC
Oh, my apologies, I see you were talking about rails then, while referring specifically to blasters previously.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#42 - 2011-11-22 16:13:16 UTC
Also, a blaster is the worse turret, when it comes to damage application. Most pilots interpreted misses as a tracking issue. When in fact it was a result of optimal and falloff mechanics and not tracking mechanics.

Slight movement, with limited optimal and falloff result in misses. Those misses are not a result of being unable to track a target. So in effect. Blaster are not able to apply damage effectively. Tracking is also important, but given a turret IS able to track = Process of elimination.

Also, tracking was never a issue with medium or large turrets. Once a target of the same class was scrambled and webbed (and did not have a afterburner). Those engagements are static (limited movement).

Tracking is most important in frigate engagements. Where ships move @ higher agility, velocity and low signature.

I figured out these issues when I started playing. I made sure I understood common perceptions and made sure they're fact. These issues have been around since I started playing the game. The only thing that hid most of these issues was 90% statsis webifiers.

Although even with 90% statsis webifiers. Most Gallente, Amarr, and Caldari ships had difficulty catching Minmatar ships (nano ships in general).
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#43 - 2011-11-22 18:54:36 UTC
Sorry, but Im not understanding you.

+20% tracking, 5% damage, and lower fitting requirements IS an increase in applied damage. Now, its an increase in applied damage is our suck-ass engagement envelope, but it is an increase. All hulls are now faster (quicker damage), can fit bigger guns (more damage) which track better (more damage) and do more damage (more damage) and actually allow the use of void (more damage). The tracking bonus alone immediately makes void actually somwhat useful against same size ships (and in a bigger gun, no less).

In short, in the very limited circumstances where our ships were effective, they will now be more effective. It certainly doesnt come close to fixing our issues, (drone ships will still pack ACs) but its a start. No real solutions are going to be had until they fix many of our ships though.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-11-22 19:32:17 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Sorry, but Im not understanding you.

+20% tracking, 5% damage, and lower fitting requirements IS an increase in applied damage. Now, its an increase in applied damage is our suck-ass engagement envelope, but it is an increase. All hulls are now faster (quicker damage), can fit bigger guns (more damage) which track better (more damage) and do more damage (more damage) and actually allow the use of void (more damage). The tracking bonus alone immediately makes void actually somwhat useful against same size ships (and in a bigger gun, no less).

In short, in the very limited circumstances where our ships were effective, they will now be more effective. It certainly doesnt come close to fixing our issues, (drone ships will still pack ACs) but its a start. No real solutions are going to be had until they fix many of our ships though.


If a small turret was able to track all frigate targets before. Now, gets a 20% increase to tracking. That in no way increases your applied damage, because provided you can track. A turret will do all its damage within it's optimal.

Even if you had the 5% increase in damage now, without the 20% increase in tracking. There would effectively be no difference, between applied damage now and when you get the 20% increase in tracking. You could even say. That was a wasted change. A increase in tracking could only effect applied damage if you COULD NOT track before.

If you could track a target before. 20% tracking WOULD NOT increase applied damage. Base damage (less so) and optimal or falloff would.

Not difficult to understand...
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#45 - 2011-11-22 21:52:53 UTC
I understand that, but there were boosts to more than small turrets, and we dont always track every target now. ;)
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-26 17:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
m0cking bird wrote:


If a small turret was able to track all frigate targets before. Now, gets a 20% increase to tracking. That in no way increases your applied damage, because provided you can track. A turret will do all its damage within it's optimal.

Even if you had the 5% increase in damage now, without the 20% increase in tracking. There would effectively be no difference, between applied damage now and when you get the 20% increase in tracking. You could even say. That was a wasted change. A increase in tracking could only effect applied damage if you COULD NOT track before.

If you could track a target before. 20% tracking WOULD NOT increase applied damage. Base damage (less so) and optimal or falloff would.

Not difficult to understand...



You are talking complete rubbish!

For a start, small turrets cannot 'always' track small targets. So tracking has an effect there then, provided the target is somewhere with optimal + 2 * falloff

Secondly, medium and large turrets do shoot sometimes at smaller targets! So tracking has an effect there too.

In fact, what the other poster said is bang on:

+20% tracking, 5% damage, and lower fitting requirements IS an increase in applied damage. Now, its an increase in applied damage inside our suck-ass engagement envelope, but it is an increase.

And learn to write proper sentences before you post on a forum.

'You could even say'.
' Now, gets a 20% increase to tracking'

WTF
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#47 - 2011-11-26 19:32:07 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:


If a small turret was able to track all frigate targets before. Now, gets a 20% increase to tracking. That in no way increases your applied damage, because provided you can track. A turret will do all its damage within it's optimal.

Even if you had the 5% increase in damage now, without the 20% increase in tracking. There would effectively be no difference, between applied damage now and when you get the 20% increase in tracking. You could even say. That was a wasted change. A increase in tracking could only effect applied damage if you COULD NOT track before.

If you could track a target before. 20% tracking WOULD NOT increase applied damage. Base damage (less so) and optimal or falloff would.

Not difficult to understand...



You are talking complete rubbish!

For a start, small turrets cannot 'always' track small targets. So tracking has an effect there then, provided the target is somewhere with optimal + 2 * falloff

Secondly, medium and large turrets do shoot sometimes at smaller targets! So tracking has an effect there too.

In fact, what the other poster said is bang on:

+20% tracking, 5% damage, and lower fitting requirements IS an increase in applied damage. Now, its an increase in applied damage inside our suck-ass engagement envelope, but it is an increase.

And learn to write proper sentences before you post on a forum.

'You could even say'.
' Now, gets a 20% increase to tracking'

WTF



This is not worth a response, but here I go...........Justin Timberlake! heh!
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-11-26 23:30:45 UTC
I rest my case
Amuse
Crimson Research
#49 - 2011-11-27 04:13:14 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
I rest my case


You stoped having a case when you went to personal attacks in a thread that has been very civilized for an eve-o forum thread :p
Julia Connor
P R O M E T H E U S
From Anoikis
#50 - 2011-11-28 22:27:39 UTC
Blasters can't get any better than what Crucible has to offer imo. Any slight increase in range will put them out of place.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-12-03 13:22:38 UTC
Was finally able to take this out for a spin and it was pretty good (active tanked Brutix). Clearly this set-up is to focused on defence. I've always tried to figure out a balance between defence and damage for this ship, but you live longer focusing on defence. Which often results in more kill-mails.

[Brutix,]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II

Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Valkyrie II x5


By the way! Has anyone tried a armour Brutix yet? It's now possible to use a 1600mm armour plate, with electrons. Funny thing is! This ships has alot of effective hit-points with a armour plate and rigs.



[Brutix,]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Valkyrie II x5
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-12-03 16:00:06 UTC
The buff has made a reasonable difference to a lot of gallente ships.

The fitting especially has changed things a lot. You can actually fit up a neutron brutix or ferox, or put a heavy cap booster and medium neut on a neutron mega, fit ions to a dualrep myrm, get a neut onto a shield tanked diemos, put two damage rigs on a dualprop taranis or two magstabs on a fed navy comet and so on.

I've only tried the comet to any significant degree but I've found that it's actually a good match against dramiels now. I'd imagine a good rail ranis player could take out dramiels as well.

So it makes a difference. I'm not sure how much of a difference it'll make overall but at least now I don't feel sad when I try to put a blaster boat into eft.
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