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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3361 - 2013-12-16 15:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Point of order Mr Chairman, one doesn't so much "fly" a Drake as loll about in it. 100% of a Drake's combat functions can be achieved by gluing some food to the F1 key and placing a pigeon in front of the keyboard. Big smile

I took one of the "flying pancakes" out last night and couldn't get over how unbelievably bad the flight mechanics on those are. When running a 100MN microwarpdrive the speed actually *dropped* when I went to overheat it. It seems to have a really tough time figuring out what an "orbit" is, too.

Wolf Aideron wrote:
Personally, I don't think there is anything really wrong with the RLML's. They do exactly what they are intended to do, they launch large missiles... Rapidly. I'm getting the feeling that people are simply bummed they aren't ridiculously over-powered as per their expectations. Think about it, if a large missile did X, then MORE large missiles is only going to do X time X. It's not exponential.

You would be in the minority… They launch small (light) missiles that are great for frigates (but not much else). And entirely useless even in PvE with the 40-second reload. I took my Tengu out with two Caracals to run an L4 and the Caracal pilots spent most of the time orbiting and reloading their RLMLs. So while each Caracal can take out about 2-3 frigates, it's then purely defensive while it reloads.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3362 - 2013-12-16 16:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Ya know what would be interesting?
If missiles were a little bit smarter and would change targets if the primary is destroyed. I launch 8 cruise missiles, only 1 is needed to destroy the target, so instead of the other 7 self-destructing in space and me having to wait for the next salvo to change targets, they automatically retarget to one of the targets I have locked. They don't receive the benefit of any target painters that haven't been targeted to the new target though, so there is a drawback. Also, they would only impact if they have the fuel and flight time to make the direction change and reach the new target.
Maybe a setting selection window to set the default target switch? i.e. They move to the next target that was locked, or the nearest, or the largest/smallest sig.
Combine this with better damage application for the missiles we have already noted as needing better damage application, and I think this would provide a satisfyingly "different" missile mechanic.
This helps to alleviate wasted salvoes, makes PvE with missiles a slight bit faster, and might make missiles a little more accepted in incursions. Flight time still applies, but the new mechanic would help make missiles more different from turrets.
Thoughts, feedback, and constructive criticism are welcome from everyone except Bouh who will just whine, complain, and otherwise make us all a little slower for reading his post.

Edit: Initially I envision the target switch only applying to targets already locked. After further testing this might need to be changed, but I think that the missile pilot should be responsible for ensuring that backup targets are locked and in range.
RoF and flight time rigs, mods, skills, and bonuses just gained a new way they can be useful without changing gameplay in a serious way.
Unfrotunately, it's not a niche weapon so CCP probably won't pick up the idea but I thought I would put it out here.
Edit 2: Yes, missile boats would have even less to do that "just hitting F1", but anybody taking fire from a missile boat in this manner would recognize the hazard and adjust fire accordingly. To think otherwise would imply that turret pilots are complete idiots who can't recognize a threat. A new Defender system would also most likely be warranted. Possibly one, with massive fitting requirements and maybe a hull bonus on an existing line of ships, could be used in an AoE defense role. 15km from the ship or somesuch, a tight fleet would have some missile protection but would also be closer together making it easier for missiles to change targets. So there would be a give and take and FCs would need to make some leadership choices and fly accordingly.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3363 - 2013-12-16 16:58:12 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
If missiles were a little bit smarter and would change targets if the primary is destroyed.

That's an interesting idea, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better-suited to the FoF variants? Here's another twist on rapid launchers: return the ammunition capacity to the pre-Odyssey levels, leave the 40-second reload time and add a big activation cost (GJ). So fire until your heart's content (or your capacitor drains).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3364 - 2013-12-16 17:03:18 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
If missiles were a little bit smarter and would change targets if the primary is destroyed.

That's an interesting idea, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better-suited to the FoF variants? Here's another twist on rapid launchers: return the ammunition capacity to the pre-Odyssey levels, leave the 40-second reload time and add a big activation cost (GJ). So fire until your heart's content (or your capacitor drains).

I did a couple edits there, so make sure you caught those too.
Basically, in my mind at least, the appeal would be that salvoes aren't wasted as much and missiles have a new mechanic to set them apart.
But you do bring up a valid point, so maybe a penalty could be incorporated for non-FoF missiles in regards to switching targets? Something along the lines of a lag while the targeting system processes new information and blah blah blah... While FoF missiles computer systems are already processing Primary, Secondary and Tertiary target data?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3365 - 2013-12-16 17:31:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
-

return the ammunition capacity to the pre-Odyssey levels


YES

Arthur Aihaken wrote:

...leave the 40-second reload time and add a big activation cost (GJ). So fire until your heart's content (or your capacitor drains)...


No!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3366 - 2013-12-16 17:48:56 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
No!

Hehe, touched a nerve - did I? Lol
I can't help but think that the only change we really needed for the original RLMLs and first iteration of RHMLs was to simply reduce the ammunition capacity by 1/3.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3367 - 2013-12-16 17:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Reducing clip size does induce an overall DPS nerf. I admit I was impressed that my T2 RLMLs could hold 80 missiles. Maybe only holding 60 would have been better than this 16-and-slowload business we now have instead.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3368 - 2013-12-16 18:09:28 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Well I actually realize now that damage bonused hull can fit smaller launchers and have bonuses to them, something turrets can't do and which would be exactly what people here want their RLML to do.

That would be Scythe Fleet Issue and Osprey Navy Issue I suppose, where Scythe is faster, has way lower signature and deals much more damage. Yay Caldari \o/
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence...

Let's see about that..

Scythe Fleet Issue
Drone Bandwidth: ...25 Mbit/sec
Signature Radius: ...90 m
Max Velocity: .........280 m/sec
Traits: ....................10% bonus to Missile damage

Osprey Navy Issue
Drone Bandwidth: ...10 Mbit/sec
Signature Radius: ...115 m
Max Velocity: .........260 m/sec
Traits: ....................10% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage

Quote:
You look like you basicaly hate caldari ships in all but graphics. You should fly other ships in fact if you can't see the strength of caldari ships.

You are right, as always. Being able to fly both missile and turret ships with near perfect skills, I'm the one biased towards different races and their weapon systems, having "secret" FW agenda, not you.
You see ? That's exactly what I'm saying : you underlined each thing the ScytheNI had better than the ONI and forgot everything else.

ONI have more hp, 6 ******* mid slots, far better sensors, better capacitor and a second bonus useful to missiles, but what are these useful for ? Do I really need to explain how good is a 6th mid slot ? No other cruiser in game have as many of them...

And just to remind you : caldari focus on range, tough shield and fleet warfare. Minmatar focus on guerilla warfare, speed and versatility.

And here you just clearly showed that you don't care about resilience or range but speed and versatility (because the ONI is already a very fast ship, but the ScytheFI is just even more, because minmatar).

Hence, caldari are clearly not a race for you, you should flee them and never look back. It's just an advice of course, but continuing to bother with caldari with only makes you cry on the forum to make them more minmatarish.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3369 - 2013-12-16 18:28:44 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Reducing clip size does induce an overall DPS nerf. I admit I was impressed that my T2 RLMLs could hold 80 missiles. Maybe only holding 60 would have been better than this 16-and-slowload business we now have instead.

Anything would be better at this point...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3370 - 2013-12-16 21:03:38 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You see ? That's exactly what I'm saying : you underlined each thing the ScytheNI had better than the ONI and forgot everything else.

ONI have more hp, 6 ******* mid slots, far better sensors, better capacitor and a second bonus useful to missiles, but what are these useful for ? Do I really need to explain how good is a 6th mid slot ? No other cruiser in game have as many of them...

And just to remind you : caldari focus on range, tough shield and fleet warfare. Minmatar focus on guerilla warfare, speed and versatility.

And here you just clearly showed that you don't care about resilience or range but speed and versatility (because the ONI is already a very fast ship, but the ScytheFI is just even more, because minmatar).

Hence, caldari are clearly not a race for you, you should flee them and never look back. It's just an advice of course, but continuing to bother with caldari with only makes you cry on the forum to make them more minmatarish.

What's wrong with you? What capacitor? ScytheFI can fit medium booster and OspreyNI only a small one. Sensors are worse but when dealing with frigs wouldn't you rather have a bit faster locking time? With similar fittings HP will be similar too. My EFT is showing only 1.5k difference, which is IMO not worth mentioning. 6 mids would allow you to fit web easily, that is true, but your applied dps will still be lower, even with kinetic! What will happen when you switch to other damage types? What second bonus useful to light missiles? There is none.

Please, stop being dishonest. OspreyNI is a wannabe frigate killer if compared with far better ship. It's way slower, bigger and less agile, has lower scan resolution, can fit only small cap booster and, worse of all - it's out dps'ed by the ScytheFI. So yeah, don't cry whenever you are unhappy with numbers. After all, finding a hull with damage bonuses was your idea, not mine.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3371 - 2013-12-16 21:59:06 UTC
Can everyone please stop quoting B---? I have block on for a reason...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3372 - 2013-12-16 22:12:52 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Can everyone please stop quoting B---? I have block on for a reason...

You want him to talk unchallenged so he can twist the truth and the meaning of things as he pleases, spreading his lies undisturbed until they become the truth for all those lazy minded?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3373 - 2013-12-16 22:24:11 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Can everyone please stop quoting B---? I have block on for a reason...

You want him to talk unchallenged so he can twist the truth and the meaning of things as he pleases, spreading his lies undisturbed until they become the truth for all those lazy minded?

Ignore him and he'll eventually leave.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3374 - 2013-12-16 22:59:52 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Can everyone please stop quoting B---? I have block on for a reason...

You want him to talk unchallenged so he can twist the truth and the meaning of things as he pleases, spreading his lies undisturbed until they become the truth for all those lazy minded?

Ignore him and he'll eventually leave.
Haha, you are so naive... :-)

Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
What's wrong with you? What capacitor? ScytheFI can fit medium booster and OspreyNI only a small one. Sensors are worse but when dealing with frigs wouldn't you rather have a bit faster locking time? With similar fittings HP will be similar too. My EFT is showing only 1.5k difference, which is IMO not worth mentioning. 6 mids would allow you to fit web easily, that is true, but your applied dps will still be lower, even with kinetic! What will happen when you switch to other damage types? What second bonus useful to light missiles? There is none.
That's exactly what I'm saying. You don't have any use for everything the ONI have to offer. Does that mean you are wrong or stupid ? Not at all ! But there's not only your way of playing in the game, and what I'm saying is that all those things you look with disdain can be very useful and even far more useful than everything the Scythe FI can bring on the table.

That is a problem of viewpoint : what is useful in some situations is useless in others and vice versa. The ONI is useless to you, but in some situations you obviously don't imagin, it's far better than the Scythe FI.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3375 - 2013-12-16 23:43:13 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Can everyone please stop quoting B---? I have block on for a reason...

You want him to talk unchallenged so he can twist the truth and the meaning of things as he pleases, spreading his lies undisturbed until they become the truth for all those lazy minded?

Ignore him and he'll eventually leave.
Haha, you are so naive... :-)

Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
What's wrong with you? What capacitor? ScytheFI can fit medium booster and OspreyNI only a small one. Sensors are worse but when dealing with frigs wouldn't you rather have a bit faster locking time? With similar fittings HP will be similar too. My EFT is showing only 1.5k difference, which is IMO not worth mentioning. 6 mids would allow you to fit web easily, that is true, but your applied dps will still be lower, even with kinetic! What will happen when you switch to other damage types? What second bonus useful to light missiles? There is none.
That's exactly what I'm saying. You don't have any use for everything the ONI have to offer. Does that mean you are wrong or stupid ? Not at all ! But there's not only your way of playing in the game, and what I'm saying is that all those things you look with disdain can be very useful and even far more useful than everything the Scythe FI can bring on the table.

That is a problem of viewpoint : what is useful in some situations is useless in others and vice versa. The ONI is useless to you, but in some situations you obviously don't imagin, it's far better than the Scythe FI.

See, it's not that you're wrong, it's just that you don't have the same level of game experience or knowledge as Bouh. Clearly if you were as experienced as he is in flying Caldari ships you would understand the points that he is trying to make. I'm not sure what points he is trying to make either, sadly my feeble mind cannot comprehend all that which Bouh knows about the greatness of the Caldari ships and missile weapon system. Smile

In other news, I'm wondering if I can bastardize a Navy Raven with a high level faction armor mod to run with an armor incursion fleet. Or would an armor tanked cruise Fleet Phoon be better?

As far as on topic..... I got nothing. Mostly because it doesn't matter what I type because we are in a forgotten corner at the top of the forum list.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3376 - 2013-12-17 00:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
As far as on topic..... I got nothing. Mostly because it doesn't matter what I type because we are in a forgotten corner at the top of the forum list.

Oh I got one... I just came up with the most twisted RHML/RLML fit you could possibly imagine. When I'm done it'll be pushing 800 DPS (out-DPS'ing a HML Tengu by about 25%). Even managed to fit a MWD, medium shield booster/amplifier and remote shield assist. Plus it's got salvage drones, room for 2x mobile tractor units and a whack of storage for salvaging. Going to be an awesome L4 mission runner! Can you guess what I am?
Big smile

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#3377 - 2013-12-17 00:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
Hey doesn't anyone remember Fozzie's open statement upon gaining control? Eliminate missiles usage from the game.
He said something about how he thought missiles were a primitive idea for a SciFi setting as well as sucking up an unwarranted amount of server time in an MMO. So from Fozzie's view point goal achievement without an actual Jita protest riot is FUN.

From profit standpoint any weapons with persistent independent movement are expensive in CPU and code. Weapons other than drones and missiles (include bombs and warp probes as close cousins) are simple damage calcuation and data exchange with target then all graphics are offloaded to client machines. Missiles on the other hand require position handling by the server very like ships. Drones are simplified ships without modules.


All that said and possibly true...most players missed Fozzie open hints about trying to introduce hit and run tactics to EVE on a wider scale than just SBs. Oops RLML ships are not supposed to stick around to kill every target available Oops They are supposed to get what kills one load can and be gone as that ammo load runs out ...ideally before enemies can inflict kills in return. Destroyers still own high sec ganks of course but what about elsewhere when everyone can open up the second you drop out of warp?

I do think Foozie may have left some bits out for this idea because he is torn between his original goal of killing missiles out of EVE and making missiles a useful special weapon of their own at least for a while. Range is one of those things if you aren't using Caracal. Missiles speed rigs aren't up to it last I looked.

Otherwise RLML missiles are perfect for dumping a small load of ammo as soon as you drop out of warp - while you are already aligning to warp out. A Caracal without damage modules can only deliver 14K damage on skill alone before running out -- so you need at least a small gang to do anything useful. Theoretically hit and run allows fits ordinarily considered sacrificial in toe to toe slugfests to survive to strike again. So I am guesssing fits should be set to lock quick and tank for about 50 seconds (fueled reps or big buffer) and 3-4 ballistic control modules.

Evil Keep in mind part of a Caracal fleet can shoot down interceptors and other tackler frigates before most other typical mining fleet guard ships can get into range. Meaning 6-8 Caracals hit and run fleets are a potential nightmare for non-high sec mining fleets, striking from beyond normal PVP/gank range 56km and disappearing with dead barges and frigate defenders in their wake. Twisted Low sec mining gank - not high sec. (If the guard fleet has BS ...heh heh the target may have changed and thus the strike force. Plus of course some BS have fire rates that limit the number to targets they can destroy in a 45-55 second scenario.)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3378 - 2013-12-17 01:17:13 UTC
^ We're not going away quietly...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3379 - 2013-12-17 01:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Ultimate L4 RHML/RLML Mission Fit
You'll need the following for this fit: CPU Management V, Power Grid Management V, Weapon Upgrades V and preferably Advanced Weapon Upgrades IV or V (you may also need a +5 power grid or +5 CPU implant in slot 6).

Gnosis Mauler
3x Dread Guristas Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher
2x Dread Guristas Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Gistii A-Type Remote Shield Booster (or Drone Link Augmentor II)

Gistum C-Type Microwarpdrive (or Gistum C-Type Afterburner)
Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Gistum C-Type Shield Booster Amplifier
3x Gistum C-Type Passive Amplifiers (mission-specific)

3x True Sansha Reactor Control
3x Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

2x Medium Ancillary Current Router II
1x Medium Ancillary Current Router I

2x Caldari Navy Warden Sentry Drones
5x Salvage Drones
1-2x Mobile Tractor Unit

If your CPU/power grid allow, substitute where you deem fit. These are great to run in a pair, as you can use the remote shield boosters to augment the other's shields if need be. A Damage Control can also be beneficial, but you'll probably be trading off some DPS in the form of a Ballistics Control. The Gnosis is *insanely* cheap to repair for some reason, so if you take any armor or hull hits it's simple to just dock-up at a nearby station (and quickly reload, too).

Expensive? Somewhat. Cheaper than a fully-blinged Tengu or Navy Drake. The Dread Guristas stuff is all fairly reasonable (way cheaper than Caldari Navy), and it's mainly Faction to get the fitting. With my III-IV skills it's pushing 600 DPS (more overheated). The best part about this is the massive 900m3 cargo hold, so with a pair of these you can basically salvage as you go! Comments welcome!

Addendum: Just watch... the power grid requirements will get "conveniently" increased without so much as a peep...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3380 - 2013-12-17 03:17:45 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Can everyone please stop quoting B---? I have block on for a reason...

You want him to talk unchallenged so he can twist the truth and the meaning of things as he pleases, spreading his lies undisturbed until they become the truth for all those lazy minded?

Ignore him and he'll eventually leave.


People used to (and still do) say that about the New Order, and ... well ... now look at it.