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Rifter Needs LOVE
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#21 - 2013-12-15 13:16:14 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
5% reduction in inertia modifier is all it needs.

It hits harder than a slasher. Tanks more than a slasher and is way more flexible than a slasher.

The reduction in inertia gives it something of it's old self back without being OP.


The dps difference is absolutely minuscule :P

What it needs is to not be a scram kiter

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

BA Rooster
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-12-15 14:42:38 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
5% reduction in inertia modifier is all it needs.

It hits harder than a slasher. Tanks more than a slasher and is way more flexible than a slasher.

The reduction in inertia gives it something of it's old self back without being OP.


I would happily take that fight in either a Slasher or a Breacher any day.
Ginger Barbarella
#23 - 2013-12-15 16:18:28 UTC
claste wrote:
So the glory days of a rifter eating everything are over and no its probaly the worse t1 frig for pvp. the dps on small auto cannons is horrible to begin with. what frig do people who fly armor rupture and armor canes fly? breacher(mini cyclone)...



Rifter had years of love in their "glory days", so maybe it's pilots need to learn how to actually fight now. Twisted

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#24 - 2013-12-15 20:19:28 UTC
er what? The rifter is what everyone thats older than a year and a half learned to fight in :P

I love my rifter but it does need a little love, only a little mind you. Just enough to put it on par as a realistic choice against other ships.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-12-15 20:43:54 UTC
Switch damage bonus for rate of fire bonus, switch 4th highslot for 4th lowslot.

Fixed.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2013-12-15 20:45:09 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Switch damage bonus for rate of fire bonus, switch 4th highslot for 4th lowslot.

Fixed.


Would go a long way.

utility highs slots = worst slots

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

StahlWaffe
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-12-15 21:27:05 UTC
The rifter is as good as it used to be. It can still do the very same stuff.
The difference is, however, that there is probably not a single cruiser out now that might have struggle fighting off a Rifter, and that all the other frigs are now on par or above the Rifter. It's engagement profile got reduced.


It certainly can still fight some frigs, examples here are Incursus and (behold:) Slasher, but it usually gets steamrolled by anything. Still good for gangstuff, ofc. Never hurts to have another Rifter with you.

A fix would be:

Falloff + RoF
or
4 Turretslots with Tracking + Falloff
or
3-3-4
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#28 - 2013-12-15 21:49:12 UTC
StahlWaffe wrote:
The rifter is as good as it used to be. It can still do the very same stuff.
The difference is, however, that there is probably not a single cruiser out now that might have struggle fighting off a Rifter, and that all the other frigs are now on par or above the Rifter. It's engagement profile got reduced.


It certainly can still fight some frigs, examples here are Incursus and (behold:) Slasher, but it usually gets steamrolled by anything. Still good for gangstuff, ofc. Never hurts to have another Rifter with you.

A fix would be:

Falloff + RoF
or
4 Turretslots with Tracking + Falloff
or
3-3-4


A good rifter dies to a good Incursus 10/10 times

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

StahlWaffe
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-12-15 21:55:34 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
StahlWaffe wrote:
The rifter is as good as it used to be. It can still do the very same stuff.
The difference is, however, that there is probably not a single cruiser out now that might have struggle fighting off a Rifter, and that all the other frigs are now on par or above the Rifter. It's engagement profile got reduced.


It certainly can still fight some frigs, examples here are Incursus and (behold:) Slasher, but it usually gets steamrolled by anything. Still good for gangstuff, ofc. Never hurts to have another Rifter with you.

A fix would be:

Falloff + RoF
or
4 Turretslots with Tracking + Falloff
or
3-3-4


A good rifter dies to a good Incursus 10/10 times



... It *should* be able to keep range. I have to say though, it's a long fight, and if it's a dualrep incursus, it's a fight of capboosters vs Barrageammo.
Railincursus (which might be what you have in mind when saying 'good incursus') totaly wrecks the rifter.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#30 - 2013-12-16 00:49:16 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Switch damage bonus for rate of fire bonus, switch 4th highslot for 4th lowslot.

Fixed.


Would go a long way.

utility highs slots = worst slots


Take the utility high away and completely kill off the rifter for good.

The extra high that allows you to fit nos/neut or launcher (that's gives it a good 25%+ DPs over slasher btw) is what makes it so versatile

Seriously all it needs is a slight reduction to inertia to make it the fastest combat frig but still slower than attack frigs. Most of the people whining about the rifter have never spent hours upon hours in them. No the rifter is not the 'king' anymore but it is far from completely useless that the majority of people make it out to be.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#31 - 2013-12-16 05:20:55 UTC
Seriously Bored wrote:
Wow. Things really have changed since the last time I played. Rifter was frig king from like 2006-2011...

What changed? Or was it the fact nothing changed for it?


Wolf took it's place.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#32 - 2013-12-16 11:03:42 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
claste wrote:
So the glory days of a rifter eating everything are over and no its probaly the worse t1 frig for pvp. the dps on small auto cannons is horrible to begin with. what frig do people who fly armor rupture and armor canes fly? breacher(mini cyclone)...



Rifter had years of love in their "glory days", so maybe it's pilots need to learn how to actually fight now. Twisted


You mean, hot skills like TDing LML condors?

F1, F2, F3, F4.

Ich lerne gut!

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#33 - 2013-12-16 11:04:33 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Seriously Bored wrote:
Wow. Things really have changed since the last time I played. Rifter was frig king from like 2006-2011...

What changed? Or was it the fact nothing changed for it?


Wolf took it's place.


SHUT UP DONT TELL PEOPLE THIS WTF NO PEOPLE WOLF IS BAD DONT USE IT

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#34 - 2013-12-16 13:00:02 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Switch damage bonus for rate of fire bonus, switch 4th highslot for 4th lowslot.

Fixed.


Would go a long way.

utility highs slots = worst slots


Take the utility high away and completely kill off the rifter for good.

The extra high that allows you to fit nos/neut or launcher (that's gives it a good 25%+ DPs over slasher btw) is what makes it so versatile

Seriously all it needs is a slight reduction to inertia to make it the fastest combat frig but still slower than attack frigs. Most of the people whining about the rifter have never spent hours upon hours in them. No the rifter is not the 'king' anymore but it is far from completely useless that the majority of people make it out to be.


It doesn't give anything a 4th low wouldn't be better for. A frig needs 4 lows for a proper armor tank and gank.


And to the gentleman above, of course i meant a Rail mancursus.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#35 - 2013-12-16 13:34:38 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Switch damage bonus for rate of fire bonus, switch 4th highslot for 4th lowslot.

Fixed.


Would go a long way.

utility highs slots = worst slots


Take the utility high away and completely kill off the rifter for good.

The extra high that allows you to fit nos/neut or launcher (that's gives it a good 25%+ DPs over slasher btw) is what makes it so versatile

Seriously all it needs is a slight reduction to inertia to make it the fastest combat frig but still slower than attack frigs. Most of the people whining about the rifter have never spent hours upon hours in them. No the rifter is not the 'king' anymore but it is far from completely useless that the majority of people make it out to be.


It doesn't give anything a 4th low wouldn't be better for. A frig needs 4 lows for a proper armor tank and gank.


And to the gentleman above, of course i meant a Rail mancursus.


I'm not saying that a 4th low wouldn't be 'more' beneficial than a 4th high however I believe that the rifter with a slight reduction to inertia would be better balance than increasing it's tank.

However if you did swap a high to low then you are basically putting it in direct conflict with the incursus and in that setup you would need to look at other things like projectiles to give it any ability to actually compete with said incursus. Right now a smart rifter pilot can kill average incursus pilots. Swap the layout around and you simply remove the ability of the rifter to kill an incursus period (excluding fail fits etc) The incursus simply out dps/tank/speed it in every way.

Keep the layout and reduce inertia means that the rifter could potentially get under the guns of a rail incursus and keep a blaster incursus at edge of scram range to kite. Yes the likelihood is that the incursus would still win however it would not be a 100% certainty like it would if you swap a high to a low.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-12-16 18:36:41 UTC
I haven't flown a Rifter lately, but I fly the rail Incursus quite a bit.

An AB/AC/Rocket Rifter shooting explosive can't kill a Rail Incursus? I would think it could get under the guns - even with javelin loaded - and outlast it. The Incursus should still hit, but not as well as the Rifter. It should outlast the Incursus' cap too. I've been out of SMCs lately, but a CCC rigged Incursus cap doesn't last a huge amount of time.

This thread makes me want to buy some Rifters and try them out, so I will.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#37 - 2013-12-16 18:40:37 UTC
Hrett wrote:
This thread makes me want to buy some Rifters and try them out, so I will.


Do it. Everyone underestimates you and acts stupid around you. It's great. The ship might not be the god it once was, but it is a badness-magnet now.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
StahlWaffe
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-12-17 18:05:53 UTC
You know something is wrong, when fitting Blasters to an obvious autocannon platform gives you better results.

Go strap some ions on it, dudes. Hell, Neutrons work, too.

[Rifter, Blasterifter]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Small Armor Repairer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I



[Rifter, AutoRifter]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Small Armor Repairer II
Gyrostabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S

Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I



First one needs 3% CPU, but since a lot of people - or at least i do - use Geno Cores, that shouldn't be a problem.

Note the difference of the mods.
Less than 10% difference in tracking - on a tracking bonused hull.
Less DPS with autocannons - on a projectile damage bonused hull.
With Ions, the AutoRifter can get 'more range'. With Neutrons, it's pretty much even.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-12-17 18:48:14 UTC
StahlWaffe wrote:
You know something is wrong, when fitting Blasters to an obvious autocannon platform gives you better results.

Go strap some ions on it, dudes. Hell, Neutrons work, too.

[Rifter, Blasterifter]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Small Armor Repairer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I



[Rifter, AutoRifter]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Small Armor Repairer II
Gyrostabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S

Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I



First one needs 3% CPU, but since a lot of people - or at least i do - use Geno Cores, that shouldn't be a problem.

Note the difference of the mods.
Less than 10% difference in tracking - on a tracking bonused hull.
Less DPS with autocannons - on a projectile damage bonused hull.
With Ions, the AutoRifter can get 'more range'. With Neutrons, it's pretty much even.


Not that I'm against strapping blasters on anything (I loves me some blastagednessification) but I think I am missing something here.
10% worse tracking with antimatter with .9+2.5 range for 143 dps (5 more dps than the rifter). AC gets .8+6 range and 138dps.
If you use null to get you similar range (2.6+3.5), you lose 29 dps to 114 (24 less than the rifter) and tracking goes to .378. The rifter has .541 tracking and the same 138 dps.

The rifter can fight out to 6.8 with its best short range ammo and far better tracking. The blaster version has to switch to "lesser" ammo and shoots to 6.1. And I think also many people, like myself, fly with no implants at all. (I cant be bothered to shop for them.)

Again - I havent flown a rifter in a long time and this is paper performance, but I dont see an issue here. It may still suck in-game though.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#40 - 2013-12-18 09:26:15 UTC
StahlWaffe wrote:
Note the difference of the mods.
Less than 10% difference in tracking - on a tracking bonused hull.
Less DPS with autocannons - on a projectile damage bonused hull.
With Ions, the AutoRifter can get 'more range'. With Neutrons, it's pretty much even.
Blaster fit have less tank (one less tank rig you forgot to mention). Also, blasters in scram range will be kited by litteraly everything but other blasters, even with neutron. With AC on the Rifter, you'll have more tracking than anything, and can hit anywhere in scram range for decent dps.

AC indeed have less dps than blasters, but they also have more range and selectable damage type (and don't use cap).
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