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RIGS
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takkorii
Commodities Unlimited
#1 - 2011-11-16 20:44:36 UTC
I've noticed that there are rigs for everything from shields and armor, ewar, scanning, speed even salvaging... but I have not seen any rigs for mining. Some people may say this is not a needed item, but in all fairness I believe that there should be some for better yield, longer range of lasers / strip miners, et cetera. Alot of the TII exhumers have ample room for tank, and the low slots are usually filled with cargo expanders and / or damage controls as well as some individuals battleship mining. So I see this as a feasable request to make in terms of a viable option as an added bonus for the indy players.

*Please note, this is just a briefly posted request / comment towards CCP so I did not go into an in depth explanation and or arguement. While constructive criticism and discussion is welcom and wanted on the topic, please keep the douchebaggery to a minimum to leave room for more intelligent conversation.

Big smile Thank You,
takk
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#2 - 2011-11-16 21:39:01 UTC
The expression, "lipstick on a pig" comes to mind. As does "Tilting at windmills".

I agree that there is a lot of room for improvements to mining ships WITHOUT increasing yield.

However it seems that FiS means "Fighting in Space". Cry
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#3 - 2011-11-17 06:03:51 UTC
Le sigh

The more you mine, the more you can sell.
The more you sell, the lower the market prices.
The less you earn per hour.

There are a couple of rigs useful to miners, the Drone Mining Augmentor, and depending on your method of mining, Cargohold Optimization rigs.

If you increase the ability to mine more per hour then every man and his macro will do the same, thus increasing the supply of minerals and decreasing their value as the markets will have more available so people constantly undercutting each other will drive the prices down.

You've only got to look at certain minerals like Morphite (used to be ~10k a unit), Zydrine + Megacyte (around 4k a unit) to see what flooding the market does to prices.

Mining doesn't need to be bigger, it needs to be better, but CCP seem unable to get rid of macros on a big enough scale for it to have any impact.
The Breadmaster
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-11-19 20:27:02 UTC
Emma Royd wrote:
Mining doesn't need to be bigger, it needs to be better, but CCP seem unable to get rid of macros on a big enough scale for it to have any impact.


Unfortunately, in recent years game design has taken into account the presence of bots...
especially in regards to harvest nodes. And it has been done to the detriment of flesh and
blood players.

I am no advocate, but without bots certain game elements would not make sense today.
For example, consumption of in game plex licenses vs the cost of mined ores.

Frankly, I am quite sure that CCP doesn't even know ( quantitatively ) the impact bots are
having in Eve and are likely scared to eliminate them altogether.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#5 - 2011-11-19 21:26:07 UTC
The Breadmaster wrote:
Emma Royd wrote:
Mining doesn't need to be bigger, it needs to be better, but CCP seem unable to get rid of macros on a big enough scale for it to have any impact.


Unfortunately, in recent years game design has taken into account the presence of bots...
especially in regards to harvest nodes. And it has been done to the detriment of flesh and
blood players.

I am no advocate, but without bots certain game elements would not make sense today.
For example, consumption of in game plex licenses vs the cost of mined ores.

Frankly, I am quite sure that CCP doesn't even know ( quantitatively ) the impact bots are
having in Eve and are likely scared to eliminate them altogether.


I have said this many times... CCP can never remove the bots unless they want EVE to die (all those banned licenses would remove too much RL income for CCP).

With that said, I think removing bots would fix a lot of issues with mining. Though, part of the problem with mining is the actual players that are mining (not bots) are so few in game that CCP ignores their requests... masses of PvE & PvP players get CCP's attention faster than a few insignificant miners. So ideas to fix mining are pushed to the back-burner while ideas to balance other ships like capitals or frigates gets CCP's attention quickly.

I did a little research to back up what I have stated above. FanFest 2011: CCP Presents video [time 1:11:00 - 1:24:00] talks about the priority CCP has placed on fixing features.

1:11:00 - "There is a large body of features we must iterate on, but we can't do all of them at the same time"

- Sovereignty - The Cyno Effect - Factional Warfare - Balance Hybrids! - Sovereignty - Bounty System - Nebulas - Starbases - Weapon Effects - Tech III - Market - Alliance System - Corporation Mgt - Starmap - Tactical View - Jove - Capital Ships - Mining - Agent System - Market - Turrets - Sounds - Boosters - UI Overhaul - Contraband

1:11:20 - "The Key is good prioritization, most important to less important; we need to prioritize; this is an example of sorting, this is not the final sorted list"

1. Sovereignty (mentioned twice above, so must be important; guess that's why it is first on the list?)
2. Starbases
3. Factional Warfare
4. Starmap
5. Corporation Mgt
6. Tech III
7. UI Overhaul
8. Capital Ships
9. Market (also mentioned twice above, so must be important; but it's number nine... so who knows?)
10. Mining
11. Market (also listed twice on this priorities list; I guess that means they get two chances to fix it?)
12. Agent System
13-25. {remaining items from 1:11:00 "Iterate Features"; somehow they did not make the "Prioritization" List}

1:11:45 - "This will take time" (i.e. do not hold your breath on any "fix" any time soon, LOL!!)

R1. Sov/Starbases
R2. FW
R3. Starmap, Corp. Mgt, Tech III, UI Overhaul
R4. Capital Ships, Market
R5. Mining
R6. Market, Agent System

I wonder what the schedule for each R1 - R6 actually is... notice mining is # 10 on Prioritization List and # R5 on the schedule. In my mind, any of those changes would then be irrelevant after CCP decides to completely remove/prevent bot/macro on EVE's live server; thus it would be back to "square one" to again fix what was just fixed by #10 & R5.

But the value of mining would increase tremendously, so maybe sometime in the next 10 years they may SOON fix the mistake from years ago (when they first noticed bot/macro use and ignored it).
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-11-20 01:45:45 UTC
The suggestion that drones might have their goo removed has been made by the devs. Apparently drone goo, from the drone regions, makes a fair impact on mineral availability.
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
#7 - 2011-11-20 02:17:46 UTC
Emma Royd wrote:
Le sigh
Mining doesn't need to be bigger, it needs to be better, but CCP seem unable to get rid of macros on a big enough scale for it to have any impact.


Do not confuse unable with unwilling, CCP are perfectly capable of removing bots, with either introducing a mining mini game or by introduc client side monitoring equipment. But why would they wish to upset a large part of their client data base? Bots do not hurt CCP and a lot more people use bots than are upset by them. Removing bots is not in CCP intrest.
General Sauron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-11-20 02:23:25 UTC
Just a thought. Instead of trying to fight the bots, why not join them so to speak.

Perhaps the solution is make mining more passive like PI. Just be able set up your mining ship for three to six hours and come back a few hours later with the ore already in station.

Let everyone bot, mining is boring anyway.
Woo Glin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-11-20 07:07:30 UTC
what if make a mine mine mine mine mine mine mine mine mine mine t3 miners
Woo Glin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-11-20 07:07:41 UTC
ccp
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#11 - 2011-11-20 19:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Esunisen
I use shield extender + TH resist rigs in my Hulk, saves meds for something else, and it has better tank.

For mining buff you have Orca or Rorqual.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#12 - 2011-11-21 14:06:04 UTC
Mining is not broken. Ask for CCP to fix it at your peril. Far better for CCP to direct their attention to things that are broken. And I'm glad to see they are starting to do just that. Big smile
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#13 - 2011-11-22 10:23:10 UTC
Granted, CCP should have sorted the bot problem when it was first apparent, then maybe mining wouldn't be in the sorry state it is now.

They make token efforts to get rid of the bots, but as people say, it's fairly obvious that they're not that interested in industry as a whole, and mining is only one part of industry so there's no chance of anything getting fixed, there will always be more important demands on ccp's time than a bunch of whiner miners :( who want mining to become a bigger part of the game where it's worth doing, and they're not seen as the peculiar uncle who lurks at the back of parties Sad

Mining as a mechanic isn't broken - it works as intended, lock asteroid and press a button, but it's the perception of mining and miners from non-industry people that is broken, and that is way out of CCP's hands, there's nothing they can do about that.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#14 - 2011-11-22 15:28:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
As far as I am concerned mining is not broken. The problem is everyone is blaming the bot miners for the low mineral prices. It is true that many minerals are mined by bots, I do not dispute that.

However after spending some time in a large null sec alliance that built supers I got to see that they did not get the bulk of there minerals from mining or buying off the market. they got them from buying cheap meta 1 modules and drone poo and reprocessing it. It also gave them the added bonus of the modules and drone poo taking up less cargo space meaning less jump frieghter trips. With maxed skills including metallurgy you can net far more minerals per isk reprocessing meta 1 items and drone poo than if you buy the minerals from the market. The amount of minerals flooding into the market from mission runners selling meta 1-2 items and drone poo is far higher than the effect from bots.

If module reprocessing was nerfed to the point that even with maxed skills the mineral returns were 10-15% below what goes into the modules, and drone poo was removed all together. the prices of minerals would be a lot higher even with the bots doing most of the mining.

The Big problem however will never change. Minerals are the baseline for the entire economy in EVE. everything is made from minerals, so if the mineral prices go up, the prices of everything else go up to suit. Miners would make more isk/hour but would need to spend an comparable % more for whatever they buy. This would result in nothing more than inflation, with the extra isk made just being worth less.

I would suspect that if the huge influx of minerals from reprocessed loot and drone poo was cut out that the market would stabilize with mining being a slightly more lucrative profession but really that is a lot of work for a marginal increase.

Mining is a career that can be done semi afk with very little risk, and even less effort. This is why it is and always will be a low paying career. 10 mil an hour to mine solo in high sec is actually a pretty good income if you are doing it semi afk while doing homework, watching your kids, or some other activity that would prevent your from being able to spend that time doing higher isk/hour activities. For example I am AFK mining right now with 4 accounts while I am at work. I can not dedicate enough of my attention to the game to run missions or any other high isk/hour activity. If I was not mining or hauling I would not even be logged in. So the 50-60 mil/hour I am making now can not be compared to the 100 mil/hour I will be making later tonight running missions, but can only be compared to the isk I could make with the same semi afk attention I am giving the game now which would be pretty much zero.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#15 - 2011-11-22 15:35:46 UTC
Emma Royd wrote:
Granted, CCP should have sorted the bot problem when it was first apparent, then maybe mining wouldn't be in the sorry state it is now.

They make token efforts to get rid of the bots, but as people say, it's fairly obvious that they're not that interested in industry as a whole, and mining is only one part of industry so there's no chance of anything getting fixed, there will always be more important demands on ccp's time than a bunch of whiner miners :( who want mining to become a bigger part of the game where it's worth doing, and they're not seen as the peculiar uncle who lurks at the back of parties Sad

Mining as a mechanic isn't broken - it works as intended, lock asteroid and press a button, but it's the perception of mining and miners from non-industry people that is broken, and that is way out of CCP's hands, there's nothing they can do about that.



There really is nothing CCP can do about the mining bots. Any change they make to the code to affect the bots will only result in new more complex bot programs being developed. The more they fight the bots the harder the game becomes for the players actually playing while the bots just keep updating their code one step ahead of CCP. If the fix went live without going to SISI then you might get a week while they caught up. But that is about it.