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T2 BPOs -- can I get a DEV reply?
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fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2011-11-18 19:04:45 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
If how to obtain the blueprint you feel is devaluing you effort/ISK is irrelevant for your "problem" then it is not much different to the devaluation you will experience when new ships are introduced and/or balanced.


I see what your saying, but thats different because the nerf or boost or rebalancing changes for ALL copies of that ship. So everyone is still playing on the same field with the same pieces. The devaluation is not from the item changing value its from the system being unbalanced.

If CCP announced today that they were going to give out 5 of each T1 BPO to players.
Also that these BPOs would have 10-90% reduced mineral costs.
The only way they would be removed is through being destroyed as an item.

Anyone without these new BPOs would just have to
try to compete with people that could profitably undercut even normal production costs
find items that were not completely devalued to produce
or beg borrow and steal to get one

Would ANYONE that is currently an industralist say that this is a good idea?
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#62 - 2011-11-18 19:18:32 UTC
I think you will find few that think the way tech 2 BPOs was ideal, but from there and to simply remove them now because you feel a bit disadvantaged is a long way. Two wrongs does not make a right.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#63 - 2011-11-18 19:22:20 UTC
CCP THIS GUY REQUESTED A RESPONSE

WHY HAVE YOU NOT GIVEN HIM ONE YET

HE IS ENTITLED.
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Omega
#64 - 2011-11-18 19:28:05 UTC
fido gotran over wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
If how to obtain the blueprint you feel is devaluing you effort/ISK is irrelevant for your "problem" then it is not much different to the devaluation you will experience when new ships are introduced and/or balanced.


I see what your saying, but thats different because the nerf or boost or rebalancing changes for ALL copies of that ship. So everyone is still playing on the same field with the same pieces. The devaluation is not from the item changing value its from the system being unbalanced.

If CCP announced today that they were going to give out 5 of each T1 BPO to players.
Also that these BPOs would have 10-90% reduced mineral costs.
The only way they would be removed is through being destroyed as an item.

Anyone without these new BPOs would just have to
try to compete with people that could profitably undercut even normal production costs
find items that were not completely devalued to produce
or beg borrow and steal to get one

Would ANYONE that is currently an industralist say that this is a good idea?


if those prints could only produce 30 ships a month. i wouldnt care. my isk comes from mass producing items.
Daddy's Princess
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-11-18 23:33:24 UTC
Ok, I'll try a civilized response Big smile

I'm not sure why people assume that the people who are producing off a t2 BPO are undercutting them. I'll break it down why this is not the case.

Just because you make yours cheaper than the inventors, why on earth would you sell it cheaper when you can just as easily sell at the going rate? And you make such a small quantity that you don't need to dump it on market at bargain prices. The exceptions are very slow selling and generally terrible items where the BPO owner will go under invention price just to make something out of it.

That is why I'm saying T2 bpos are having next to no impact on the market except making people jealous even though you can make more profit per item inventing and mass producing. You may say there are exceptions that do sell lower. I will go ahead and agree but will add that their products never end up competing with yours. This is because in all likelihood their stock is bought up by traders and re listed at going rate.

Where the t2 BPOs have a huge advantage is the ease of operation. Just gather materials and pop them in the oven for a month. Collect goods. To make things one step simpler, some producers will decide to just sell their stock straight to buy orders and still make a profit. Less profit than the inventor but far more convenient and easier game play. Again, no impact on you as from then on you're competing with the resellers.

Now you may say this is unfair but really EVE is all about getting an edge isn't it? Who says everyone has to be on an even footing. There is unfairness everywhere but most have created that advantage themselves. Grinding isk to buy a t2 bpo(s) so they can chill and make consistent income knowing they have a valuable asset to sell off in the future. People manipulating the market with a 100bil isk is also unfair, so is other producers undercutting your 100 products with their 2000, people blobbing up to take the good moons in 0.0, more organized groups evicting you from your profitable wormhole etc etc... It's everywhere.

There is this perceived hardship out there which is not justified. Eve is what you make of it.

Moon, Scifi, Fantasy
Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2011-11-18 23:50:35 UTC
Not this again... Look, if you like BPOs, buy and use them to your heart's content. If you don't, don't use them... Why the hard-on?
Lukriss
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-11-19 04:29:34 UTC
It's is pretty ******* dumb to assume that T2 BPOs define prices on T2 items as a whole. Of course, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, on some lesser used items it does.

But take something like a Hulk do you remember how much those were before invention? Beacause I do 450ish mill, right now they're less than 220m, which, along with the fact that the subscriber base has increased since then, is a pretty damn good proof that demand wasn't met with only the BPOs.

Lets say that 200 Hulk BPOs exist (it's WAY WAY WAY less than that, I think less than 10). Now, those 200 people producing from their BPOs they will be able to undercut inventors, I wont argue that, but remember their supply is limited so it will dry up at some point.

Now they're trying to sell their stuff, they all put up their orders at the exact same time, what will the price be playing 0.01 isk games? It will be 2 isk less than inventors are willing to sell for. 2 isk. Even if they all undercut by 100 isk, it's only 20k isk less than inventors are willing to sell for, hell lets even make it a 1k isk undercut each, that's 200k below the price inventors will be willing to sell for.

Who, in their right mind, will be willing to produce a Hulk and only make 200k profit? No one, with a brain, which means that when inventors stop being willing to compete, a build and sale will still not result in a loss, and the price will only be terrible until the BPO owners stock sells out (which it will on every "popular" item, at which point you're only competing with other inventors, so they are the ones ******* up the market. Why don't they go bankrupt? I guess the posfuel they mine themselves along with the datcores they research themselves is free, I dunno.

Does this mean I think that T2 BPOs are good for the game? No in no way. But I do believe there's no good way to remove them without screwing some people over majorly. No one is losing from the BPOs being in the game but some people are gaining fat on it. If it was the other way around that tons of people lost on it and no one gained anything, sure I'd be for removing the BPOs but as of now, I really see now need..

Also inb4 accuastion of me owning a T2 BPO, I don't, have I thought about buying one? Hell yea But I just don't have the cash to invest for a ~12% ROI/Year invesment (6 year breakeven point, that was pretty standard on any highdemand item when I was considdering getting one)
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#68 - 2011-11-19 17:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Oh, wow, arrived very late to a "T2 BPOs are the devil, burn'em" party thread, I see ?
Serves me right to go on a honeyweek P

Let's just say the horse has been beaten to death into a bloody pulp, dried, snorted, micturated, decanted, re-dried and sold as novelty souvenirs in the following long-running thread in the old forums (got to page 40, post #1185 before the old forums closed down):
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1360780
alternatively,
http://eve-search.com/thread/1360780

If you're trying to restart the argument, you will surely find just about any opinion in there, and just about every possible explanation as to why it doesn't really matter all that much either way, then the counter to that too.

...

VERY LONG STORY SOMEWHAT SHORT, the "solution" to the T2 BPO "problem" is NOT fiddling with them in any way at all, but instead looking at the INVENTION PROCESS (namely, the cruddy output ME/PE levels) and the moon mineral distribution (or at least alternative advanced material production options).

[sarcasm]
Yes, the solution to the non-existing problem of T2 BPOs has absolutely nothing to do with T2 BPOs.
Go figure.
[/sarcasm]

...

ASSUMING for some reason CCP decides to NOT improve invention and NOT refactor the moon products chains in any way, this is what the EXISTENCE of T2 BPOs does right now, and how their removal would basically do more harm than good:

* they keep a few low-volume items within the realm of "practical to use once in a blue moon" as opposed to "hell no, are you crazy, nobody uses those" by providing them below a price level that would be possible via invention ; ALL ITEMS THAT DO TRADE A SIGNIFICANT VOLUME ARE PROFITABLE TO INVENT ANYWAY, AND THE PRICE LEVEL IS SET BY INVENTORS FOR THOSE ITEMS, NOT BY BPO OWNERS

* they make all moon minerals at least a bit cheaper, especially the bottleneck ones, and hence all T2 items as a whole slightly cheaper; if all items would need to be invented because no more T2 BPOs would exist, the bottleneck moongoo(s) - currently, Technetium - would become radically more expensive, T2 items would increase in price noticeably while at the same time the number of T2 items produced would go down (while the game's population share that can potentially use T2 items keeps going up)

* YOU CAN NOT DEVISE A SYSTEM FOR THEIR REMOVAL THAT WILL NOT EITHER SCREW UP THE GAME'S ECONOMY OR END UP BEING GROSSLY UNFAIR- in this case, "fair" would mean "compensate with either how much the BPO is worth now or price it was purchased at, whichever is higher" - the ungodly amount of disposable ISK dumped into the system would make just about everything explode in price... which would mean the initial compensation would become "unfair" shortly after it was dispensed (and so on and so forth)

...

T2 BPO owners carve out a (mostly) PERCEIVED (and not necessarily real) "first right to sell" slice from the market, but their profit is capped by a sales price at a maximum rough value around the invention profitability breakeven (give or take depending on the swing of the market, phase of the moon or whatnot else).

For everything else, it's all inventor-vs-inventor market PvP (with the occasional trader thrown in) that causes all the PERCEIVED grief of some inventors.

In markets where T2 BPOs have any meaning whatsoever, an inventor would need to be a complete idiot to even consider entering, and as such he'll get exactly what he deserves.

...

The vast majority of T2 BPOs (by count) yield a pathetic profit ; in many cases, well below the potential profit that can be obtained with the same amount of slots busy with T1 production (at a fraction of the cost).

For the vast majority of T2 BPOs that *are* reasonably profitable (that being a minority of the total number of T2 BPOs), the current owner is NOT the original owner, the market already decided what the "fair price" for the T2 BPO should be, and that person PAID IT at the time. In fact, quite a few of those have switched owners many times already.

...

Bottom line ?

If you think T2 BPOs are overpowered, just freaking buy one.
If you can afford them but you think they cost too much, then they can't be overpowered.
If you can't afford them, then that's just envy... and you should HTFU or STFU (or both).

You can't eat your cake but still have it intact afterwards.

...

P.S. Alternatively, we could just make T2 BPOs available at LP shops at prices similar to the currently charged values ; in time, all T2 BPOs would become less and less valuable, and invention would become less and less practical, with datacores becoming nearly worthless. This way, you maximize grief for everybody involved. You know, if that's your cup of tea.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#69 - 2011-11-19 18:40:50 UTC
Ariane VoxDei wrote:


Lets do the polarity change test on your "if you think T2 BPO is better"

If you really did not think that T2 BPO is better, which is what you are implying, you could choose to *not care*. It can hardly be negatively impacting you that some do think so, if you dont. They would then, to you, represent a business opportunity, placing high value on something you do not think has high value.
Or you could care and be a lot more constructive about it, instead of sounding very butthurt that someone is, again, drawing attention to this embarassing subject.

Anyone who defends the status quo in this clearly has something at stake.
Holders
Connection/dependency on holders.
Devs/CCPers.

Same old story every time. I don't know who got sacked recently, but ccp'ers are people too and some have in the past caused CCP to look too proud and outright corrupt. Its not all hello kitty and my little pony and you would do well to remember that.


It's a matter of principle. Why should CCP screw over people (and incidentally destroy high value assets) to placate a few whiners who can't even come up with a serious reason to remove T2 BPOs? I do indeed have something at stake, the integrity of the game. Among other things, this is a capitalist simulation. If CCP kept taking stuff away just because not everyone had it, then it wouldn't be Eve any more.

T2 BPOs got introduced by a lousy mechanic. Too bad. Their presence has been fixed by invention. There's nothing left to complain about except that some people have stuff you want. There's already an in game mechanic to fix that. Save your isk and buy one.
Mnengli Noiliffe
Doomheim
#70 - 2011-11-22 11:58:36 UTC
The bpo's that are 'killing the market' are bpo's for items that no one wants.

Those items ONLY sell in volumes a bpo's can produce. so a bpo owners can meet the demand and because of high pe, they can always beat the inventors al long as the item remains low demanded.

However, since the market is huge -- MUCH larger than the amount of BPO's - these rare items are irrelevant. For any item that has market volume exceeding BPO production rate, invention is more profitable, since you can invent and build unlimited amounts at the same time, while with bpo you can only have as much manufacturing jobs as you have bpo's at the same time.

In other words - if a BPO is controlling an item supply, then this item is useless junk. who cares about useless junks?

If there were no BPO for junk items, the profit for those items would be exactly 0 anyway since any raise in price would cause overproduction and immediate price plummeting. No sane inventor would bother with such items since before production you check market history and realise that any sensible volumes you produce would flood the market so you won't be able sell it.

And no you don't have to invent and build something to find out the item you built can't return the initial investment. You know, there are such things as data dumps and market research BEFORE you even begin to invent or buy materials for the batch.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#71 - 2011-11-22 12:21:29 UTC
fido gotran over wrote:
Breaker77 and Servitor 001 are saying thatt T2 BPOs cost more to manufacture with than invetion --

All invetion has a -4 ME (unless you use the decryptors which add millions to the cost and can even make the ME worse)
Then you have to add the cost of copying
Then you have to add the cost of the data cores
Then you have to add the rate of failure

T2 BPOs can be researched so they use less materials and they dont require all the incidental costs of invention.

I'll give one example and tell me if I'm missing something.

T2 Veldspar minig crystals
Invetion takes -
Laser Physics datacore - 2 - Buy price in Amarr 185,000 apiece
Electronics engineering datacore 2 - Buy price in Amarr 210,000 apiece
For a total of 790,000 per attempt

The T2 veld crystals are selling for 60,000 apiece
Thats 600,000 for a 10 run copy

Now ignoring the cost of
Running the invention
The time spent copying
The cost of materials TO ACTUALLY BUILD IT
And the rate of failure wich would require MORE datacores

You begin with a 190,000 isk LOSS per 10 run print to even TRY to invent
With a 50% failure rate thats 380,000 LOSS before you add the 220,000+ cost for everything else

T2 BPO not even researched takes (THESE ARE SELL PRICES rounded up just for worst case profit on BPO)
28 Nocxium -- (482*28) 13496
1 hypersyanptic fiber -- 5000
1 veldspar crystal -- 15,000
and 1.5% of a R.A.M. Elec -- (45000*0.015) 675

for a total cost of 34171 isk per unit
60000 - 34171 = 25829 profit per unit
and profit would only go up if the person set buy orders and build thier own t1 crystals

So for 10 units like above there is a minimum of 258290 profit for ten units with a T2 BPO
And for Invention its a 600,000+ loss

THIS is why I want a DEV comment on this.
I don't know who is producing these crystals so I cannot say that it MUST be T2 BPOs.
MAYBE people are REALLY this stupid
MAYBE T2 BPOs are not being used to kill this market
MAYBE T2 BPOs dont have any affect on any items in the game and everything is fine.

OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.

AS far as Ideas for solutions there are many ways to address it

1) Add datacores as a cost (relative to how many datacores it takes per unit with lvl5 skills) to T2 bpos and make them all -4 ME -- They would still have the benefit of unlimited runs and no invention steps to deal with.

2) Remove them from the game and pay the owners the isk values that they paid for them.

3) Remove them from the game and pay the owners some multiple of what the items cost on market or an approxamation of what they would sell for on contrats relative to past sales.

4) combine 2 and 3 and pay the higher value


actually this .... it is quite easy to see which t2 BPOs are used on the market if u see the prices.

In past few weeks I am quite active on the carebare side and it is one of the annoying parts u see as an inventor and t2 builder. Some things are not profitable even with buy orders for materials.


Rainrider
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
#72 - 2011-11-22 14:46:16 UTC
Mnengli Noiliffe wrote:
The bpo's that are 'killing the market' are bpo's for items that no one wants.

Those items ONLY sell in volumes a bpo's can produce. so a bpo owners can meet the demand and because of high pe, they can always beat the inventors al long as the item remains low demanded.

However, since the market is huge -- MUCH larger than the amount of BPO's - these rare items are irrelevant. For any item that has market volume exceeding BPO production rate, invention is more profitable, since you can invent and build unlimited amounts at the same time, while with bpo you can only have as much manufacturing jobs as you have bpo's at the same time.

In other words - if a BPO is controlling an item supply, then this item is useless junk. who cares about useless junks?

If there were no BPO for junk items, the profit for those items would be exactly 0 anyway since any raise in price would cause overproduction and immediate price plummeting. No sane inventor would bother with such items since before production you check market history and realise that any sensible volumes you produce would flood the market so you won't be able sell it.

And no you don't have to invent and build something to find out the item you built can't return the initial investment. You know, there are such things as data dumps and market research BEFORE you even begin to invent or buy materials for the batch.


what I can not make copies my my T2 BPO?
make 5 1500 run T2 BPC (lets say Hammerhead II)
Look the invertion and production of just ONE hamerhead is just under 920K isk
do the F-in math
and yes I will sell you 1500 Hammerhead II today at a special cost to you on only 920,001isk per unit
Rainrider
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
#73 - 2011-11-22 15:14:24 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
You keep missing the part where BPO production is not scable compared to invention...


you keep saying that..

you ever made antimatter charges L? do you do you production run for the BPO?
try this
make 10 copy with 1500run each
now start making antimatter charges L
run 5 copies at a time.... ......do you see the light yet?

(do not tell anyone but you can make copies from you T2 BPO.... ... but do not tell anyone)

I have and still am putting skill point into make items
and yes the T2 BPO owner can sell item for less then the person using the invention process

Just think about this one
what is the cost/price of your Hammerhead II?

what 400k isk???? if the BPO can not keep up with demand as you say then you should be paying north of 1mil isk for each hammerhead II

do the math (or use "Dedeaf Industrial Tool")
the Invertion cost to make a Hammerhead II is just under 920K isk (919,249.49 isk)
Rainrider
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
#74 - 2011-11-22 15:27:27 UTC
Breaker77 wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
You keep missing the part where BPO production is not scable compared to invention...


Are you trying to say that thousands of hulk invention jobs per day make more profit than the extremely limited number of Hulk BPOs? Of course you are!!

It's a clear case of Economies of Scale.

A T2 BPO can only make X number of items per day.

An inventor can invent and build as many items as they have slots and time for*.

Is it better to make 5 million ISK profit per item but only make 10 items per day (50 mil profit) or 1 million ISK per item but build 100 items (100 mi profit)?

That is why T2 BPOs are so overrated. They can only produce X number of items per day while with invention an almost unlimited number of items can be produced.


*note - people who own T2 BPOs can also invent as well, most of which do so.



Ever looked and a Hulk BPO?????
you can make copies with 10 runs each........
so go ahead invent use the invertion process to make a 100 Hulk
I will just run off 100 10 run BPC from my BPO Lol
and mine BPC with be ME zero (like I'm not going to research itRoll)
Rainrider
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
#75 - 2011-11-22 15:45:01 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Shadow Lord77 wrote:
Eve is a small game with not many players. Only a few have BPOs and most of them are entitled to come on to these threads and attack any players which threaten their BPOs.

CCP should take out T2 BPOs as a whole. Relax; it's only a game right? It'll make things fair for the invention newbies and you'll get by on fine while not having a T2 original blueprint I'm sure.


I love how idiots assume anyone against T2 BPO changes must own a BPO.

I don't own one. I never have. I have never invented something. I did some T3 production when whs first came out because it was lucrative as hell.




say it all...

I too do not own a T2 BPO, but I have done Invention and I can tell you it's cheaper to buy most of the items from the open maket Most of the time......yes I too can find items that you can make isk at with invention

(see posts regarding Hanmmerhead II)
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
#76 - 2011-11-22 15:56:51 UTC
Rainrider wrote:
.. three posts about copying T2 BPOs and one about Antimatter Charge L (a T1BPO!) ...

Are you mentally impaired?
Arcan Winter
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2011-11-22 17:07:25 UTC
Rainrider wrote:


...

what I can not make copies my my T2 BPO?
make 5 1500 run T2 BPC (lets say Hammerhead II)
Look the invertion and production of just ONE hamerhead is just under 920K isk
do the F-in math
and yes I will sell you 1500 Hammerhead II today at a special cost to you on only 920,001isk per unit



Well, maybe you should take a look at the copy time of T2 BPO. For your example of Hammerhead II it will take longer time to make a copy at a POS lab than it takes to build a Hammerhead II (think the same is valied for most/all T2 BPO). So by doing copies you will lower your production, not increase it!.

Even, with a T2 Hammerhead II BPO you will not be able to make 1500 copies, max is 100.

And about cost of Hammerhead II, they sell at jita for 540k p/u at the moment. And if you know your math you should know an inventer will make profit at that price level!

So what are you trying to say?


Rainrider
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
#78 - 2011-11-22 17:09:38 UTC
Lutz Major wrote:
Rainrider wrote:
.. three posts about copying T2 BPOs and one about Antimatter Charge L (a T1BPO!) ...

Are you mentally impaired?



must be ......

by the the mgf. screw or a computer or T1 items or a T2 items it's all the some
input cost plus profit equals sell price is that simple


be hell that do I know I'm MENTALLY IMPAIRED right??????
Rainrider
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
#79 - 2011-11-22 17:20:20 UTC
Arcan Winter wrote:
Rainrider wrote:


...

what I can not make copies my my T2 BPO?
make 5 1500 run T2 BPC (lets say Hammerhead II)
Look the invertion and production of just ONE hamerhead is just under 920K isk
do the F-in math
and yes I will sell you 1500 Hammerhead II today at a special cost to you on only 920,001isk per unit



Well, maybe you should take a look at the copy time of T2 BPO. For your example of Hammerhead II it will take longer time to make a copy at a POS lab than it takes to build a Hammerhead II (think the same is valied for most/all T2 BPO). So by doing copies you will lower your production, not increase it!.

Even, with a T2 Hammerhead II BPO you will not be able to make 1500 copies, max is 100.

And about cost of Hammerhead II, they sell at jita for 540k p/u at the moment. And if you know your math you should know an inventer will make profit at that price level!

So what are you trying to say?





the buy order for the datacore need to do the invention are 680,000isk

or

do you get then free?????
Mnengli Noiliffe
Doomheim
#80 - 2011-11-22 19:09:25 UTC
copying time per 1 run is longer than manufacturing so its pointless.

as of datacores, well you need 2 of them to make 5 runs on average so it's 136k per drone with your figure. as long as profit per drone is more than that, it's profitable.