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Intergalactic Summit

 
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An interesting view of the reclaiming

Author
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#41 - 2011-11-21 23:58:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Lyn Farel wrote:

And at the same time, no respect for the capsuleers that "stuff their wallets" by eliminating outlaw factions or the incursions of the Sansha Nation ?


How many of them go out every day to the front lines? That's what I'm trying to point out. Half the time, it's myself or another militia pilot that pulls them out of the fire when someone's peeling their hull away. Do they pull themselves away from their rock long enough to give us a hand when we need it?

Lke I said, I respect anyone brave enough to try and eke out a living in this crazy 'verse. Trashing the militia for the sake of the miner is kind of counterproductive, though, when it's the militia that keeps the miners safe most of the time.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2011-11-22 14:10:43 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Astrid Stjerna Understood my point, whereas I don't quite think you did Lyn, The TLF actually fights against Amarrian forces, and not just noncapsuleer forces


What is your point here ?

ValentinaDLM wrote:
The point, wasn't that they are worthy of respect because they destroy things, the point is they put themselves on the line and actually fight for something, rather than complain from afar.

[...]

And Yes Lyn, perhaps the milita is full of "pirates", I can't honestly say that I hold the moral values that the empire holds, but you know what, even the pirates and thieves there are still doing more than the some of the holders that talk oh so loud about how the empire needs to reclaim, yet do absolutely nothing to accomplish this.


This point, I understood it fully. I think that you, actually, did not understand mine at all.


ValentinaDLM wrote:
No, I will never have respect for those that oppose incursions, because of my own personal feelings towards Sansha's Nation.


That is your problem, not ours. I own no grief against the Nation - that I personally find very interesting as a concept - except that it has now become a question of survival to oppose it.

ValentinaDLM wrote:
And those that oppose the other "outlaw" factions, rarely take any serious risk to do so, and those who don't take risks aren't worthy of my respect, so only a small percentage would I actually respect.


This is ludicrous. What is worth of respect is what you achieve to do, not the fancy risks you take or the things you do "just for the show". What is worth of respect are one's ideals, or what one tries to achieve, not how many risks one takes. Is life a contest of "who will risk one's life the most" for you ?

ValentinaDLM wrote:
Also, these so called "outlaw" factions are by and large misunderstood, while I think the Angel Cartel and the Guristas are more or less just up to no good, for the sake of acquiring isk, the others all have motivations, that I think are at least as good as the "emprie" factions.


Every outlaw faction can be painted in shades of grey. Yet that does not mean they can even be equated to these empire factions on a scale of morals and ethics.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2011-11-22 14:17:13 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

And at the same time, no respect for the capsuleers that "stuff their wallets" by eliminating outlaw factions or the incursions of the Sansha Nation ?


How many of them go out every day to the front lines? That's what I'm trying to point out. Half the time, it's myself or another militia pilot that pulls them out of the fire when someone's peeling their hull away. Do they pull themselves away from their rock long enough to give us a hand when we need it?

Lke I said, I respect anyone brave enough to try and eke out a living in this crazy 'verse. Trashing the militia for the sake of the miner is kind of counterproductive, though, when it's the militia that keeps the miners safe most of the time.


Do not make me laugh. Miners are usually exterminated by militias. I know it, I have been part of this mess for more than 3 years, and it has become worse each year.

However I have the feeling that you and Valentina tried to say that people who most capsuleers refer to as "carebears" are not worthy of respect. This is just wrong. I have infinitly more respect for them than most people enlisted in the militias, even these that actually fight for their faction (maybe 5-10% of them) in a war that is at best, debatable.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#44 - 2011-11-23 07:05:37 UTC
I hope you're enjoying the view from atop that moral high horse you're sitting on Ms. Farel. Allow me to offer you a handkerchief so you can deal with the inevitable nosebleed from that rarefied atmosphere. Roll

You may not work for the Imperials anymore but, you certainly have their haughty righteous attitude down.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2011-11-23 16:28:44 UTC
And it is not justified in the present case ? If this universe lacks of something, it is definitly high morals and ethics.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#46 - 2011-11-23 16:39:57 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

However I have the feeling that you and Valentina tried to say that people who most capsuleers refer to as "carebears" are not worthy of respect. This is just wrong. I have infinitly more respect for them than most people enlisted in the militias, even these that actually fight for their faction (maybe 5-10% of them) in a war that is at best, debatable.


Again, you misunderstand.

I have respect for all capsuleers, carebear and militia alike.

I just have a bit more respect for the militia because when someone asks for help, we're out there helping, instead of worrying about how helping is going to impact our profit margin.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2011-11-23 19:46:25 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

However I have the feeling that you and Valentina tried to say that people who most capsuleers refer to as "carebears" are not worthy of respect. This is just wrong. I have infinitly more respect for them than most people enlisted in the militias, even these that actually fight for their faction (maybe 5-10% of them) in a war that is at best, debatable.


Again, you misunderstand.

I have respect for all capsuleers, carebear and militia alike.

I just have a bit more respect for the militia because when someone asks for help, we're out there helping, instead of worrying about how helping is going to impact our profit margin.


You must be refering to your own corporation ?
Hamish Grayson
#48 - 2011-11-23 20:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamish Grayson
The capsuleer privateers of TLF crew their ships with Minmatar freemen. The capsuleer privateers of the 24th crew their ships with Minmatar slaves. When the two groups clash the end result is more dead minmatar. Changing the name on a few backwater worlds that neither faction actually cares about is a waste of your time. The Faction 'war' isn't a patriotic struggle. It's a blood sport, were for the TLF and the 24th score is kept by measuring the two mountains of minmatar corpses.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2011-11-23 20:21:41 UTC
Hamish Grayson wrote:
The capsuleer privateers of TLF crew their ships with Minmatar freemen. The capsuleer privateers of the 24th crew their ships with Minmatar slaves. When the two groups clash the end result is more dead minmatar. Changing the name on a few backwater worlds that neither faction actually cares about is a waste of your time. The Faction 'war' isn't a patriotic struggle. It's a blood sport, were for the TLF and the 24th the score is kept by measuring the two mountains of minmatar corpses.


But that Gallente-Caldari conflict, that's totally worthwhile, right?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Hamish Grayson
#50 - 2011-11-23 20:37:47 UTC
No, it certainly is not.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2011-11-23 21:42:49 UTC
Good. We finally agree on something.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Ascentior
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#52 - 2011-11-24 14:40:40 UTC
Hamish Grayson wrote:
The capsuleer privateers of TLF crew their ships with Minmatar freemen. The capsuleer privateers of the 24th crew their ships with Minmatar slaves. When the two groups clash the end result is more dead minmatar. Changing the name on a few backwater worlds that neither faction actually cares about is a waste of your time. The Faction 'war' isn't a patriotic struggle. It's a blood sport, were for the TLF and the 24th score is kept by measuring the two mountains of minmatar corpses.

Show me. No one is ever forced to crew any of my ships. I must have faith in my crew and they must have faith in what we are doing. How else am I to expect to enlighten anyone?

But again, this has degraded from a discussion on my work trying to help people from all walks find their faith. Which I do without chains, whips, drugs or lasers. Instead, we again start talking about who can blow who up. While I have no moral issues destroying the ships of those who target me, my crew, other loyalist capsuleers, or the brave crew of our Imperial Navy, I do so only in the hopes that we get an opportunity to speak with the unenlightened populace.

These rebels have shown time and time again that they do not WANT to know of God, and that is fine, they don't believe in the divine retribution that will come. A shame, but not in my control and not my focus. What they are doing, is preventing others from hearing the Lord's voice, and that IS something I can not allow.

It's true that faith, real faith, can takes years, generations, even millennia to be found. But the sooner we start, the sooner they can all rejoice in His splendour.

Those of you who don't agree, who wish to fight all Amarr to the bitter end, I understand. I regret that I cannot save you, but I will accept that. Should this change, I will welcome that change. You never have to explain to me why you don't believe. But you will not change my mind or any of those who walk this path either. So stop filling up my comms with your inane dribble. I did start the conversation with...

"Ascentior wrote:
Greetings faithful, and if you are truly interested, those of lesser faith.


Perhaps that should be a hint that you don't have an interest in what was to follow? You've all shown that you have enough grasp of language to understand that concept.

Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment)

Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy

Chosen by God to serve the Empire.

Caius Ardishapur
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2011-11-24 17:13:38 UTC
Ascentior,

Please know that while the discussion may have degraded, your original words were not lost to them. While I am just a young capsuleer training at the Academy, I have found great inspiration in what you have said here. With your permission, I would like to quote some of what you have said in an upcoming assignment on the Methodology of Reclamation.

I would also like to ask, are the rebels truly beyond saving?
Hamish Grayson
#54 - 2011-11-24 19:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamish Grayson
Minmatar slaves or even freemen who've accepted the Amarrian faith are still Minmatar. My point being that real life isn't black and white and a letter of mark doesn't make Astrid Stjerna a swashbuckling hero. It makes her somebody who kills her kin for profit, pleasure and prestige. Capsuleers are only heroes on the holo-screen and it was my hope to convey that message to pilot Stirena before she's collected as many ghosts as I have.

My point had nothing to do with your interest or lack of interest in S&M fetishes.
Gottii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2011-11-24 19:18:33 UTC
Hamish Grayson wrote:
The capsuleer privateers of TLF crew their ships with Minmatar freemen. The capsuleer privateers of the 24th crew their ships with Minmatar slaves. When the two groups clash the end result is more dead minmatar. Changing the name on a few backwater worlds that neither faction actually cares about is a waste of your time. The Faction 'war' isn't a patriotic struggle. It's a blood sport, were for the TLF and the 24th score is kept by measuring the two mountains of minmatar corpses.



If you and yours cared so much for the plight of the Minmatar people, you wouldnt seek a military alliance with those who enslaved us, or profit from the misery of our people by trading with their Holders, nor would create machines to place in our heads to aid in our enslavement and degradation, nor would you carry out the innumerable other ways the State directly and indirectly harms the People....

Spare us your false humanity and concern. It rings hollow.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#56 - 2011-11-24 19:36:12 UTC
The Reclaiming started when the Udorians arrived on the Amarr landmass, and oppressed the True Amarr, who became fanatic zealots as a result, eventually subduing the Udorians in the first Imperial Crusade.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-11-24 20:05:00 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
The Reclaiming started when the Udorians arrived on the Amarr landmass, and oppressed the True Amarr, who became fanatic zealots as a result, eventually subduing the Udorians in the first Imperial Crusade.


So basically, the Reclaiming is due to a victim complex?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#58 - 2011-11-24 20:25:23 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
The Reclaiming started when the Udorians arrived on the Amarr landmass, and oppressed the True Amarr, who became fanatic zealots as a result, eventually subduing the Udorians in the first Imperial Crusade.


So basically, the Reclaiming is due to a victim complex?


Nope.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Hamish Grayson
#59 - 2011-11-24 20:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamish Grayson
Gotti wrote:



If you and yours cared so much for the plight of the Minmatar people, you wouldnt seek a military alliance with those who enslaved us, or profit from the misery of our people by trading with their Holders, nor would create machines to place in our heads to aid in our enslavement and degradation, nor would you carry out the innumerable other ways the State directly and indirectly harms the People....

Spare us your false humanity and concern. It rings hollow.


The Amarr Empire, Minmatar Republic, Gallente Federation and Caldari State all trade with each other. All four nations participate in the military alliance known as CONCORD. I would also point out that the robust trade economy of the Federation imports and exports more goods across the Amarrian border than the State does.

Second, the high tech goods the Caldari do sell to the Amarrian holders reduces their reliance on slave labor, directly leading to the more progressive social policies such as those that lead the the Empress' release of millions of slaves.

Finally, the State co ducts a fair amount of trade with the republic too and our high-tech components feature prominently in modern Minmatar designs, allowing the republic to maintain military parity with the Empire.

But I do accede to your point that being of Caldari heritage, or in my case half Caldari, does make one morally inferior to a Matari. After all, some racial groups are just better than others.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#60 - 2011-11-24 20:53:57 UTC
Hamish Grayson wrote:
Minmatar slaves or even freemen who've accepted the Amarrian faith are still Minmatar. My point being that real life isn't black and white and a letter of mark doesn't make Astrid Stjerna a swashbuckling hero. It makes her somebody who kills her kin for profit, pleasure and prestige. Capsuleers are only heroes on the holo-screen and it was my hope to convey that message to pilot Stirena before she's collected as many ghosts as I have.

My point had nothing to do with your interest or lack of interest in S&M fetishes.


I make no claims that I'm some kind of 'hero', swashbuckling or otherwise, and I don't want 'prestige' for taking a life. o say I take 'pleasure' in killing someone is almost insulting; I'm not a psychopath, Captain Grayson. And you're right -- there's nothing 'noble' about what I do.

During my combat training, I practiced on a holosim of an Amarrian attack fleet. My instructor watched me try and avoid Matari casualties, and had this to say:

'Once the enemy figures out that you won't kill your own people, they'll put Matari slaves on every ship and every planet, and your war will end before it even begins.'

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....