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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3301 - 2013-12-14 17:38:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And who does actually know anything about blasters and railguns more than I do after flying them for 3 years ? I was there in the Drake and winmatar era, and I remember how it was. HML of this time were not better than HAML of now, they just had more range. Comparison is simple.

So let's see... You know more about blasters and railguns than anyone here after 3 years. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that remark, I will instead ask a question that might be somewhat relevant to a missile thread. Why does your complete mastery of hybrid weapons qualify you to be an expert on weapon balancing in regards to missiles?
Can I, a missile pilot for a bit more than 3 years, go into another weapon thread and start slinging my e-peen around like you have done here?
Can I, an almost completely PvE pilot for most of my characters life, go into a PvP thread and start telling everyone what they're doing wrong?
Since you're only going to pick a snippet from this response to reply to, it doesn't matter what I say here. But I do hope that someone gets a bit of a chuckle from your arrogance and lack of any qualifications to be talking about missiles. You yourself have said that whether you are flying solo in a gang, a simple missile boat will send you running back to safety quivering with fear. Maybe that is why you are here with such arrogance? Does a missile pilot have you pinned in station with his mighty Kestrel?
You just admitted that your only qualifications for posting in this thread have nothing to do with the missiles in question. Go home Bouh, and watch out for those OP Heavy Missiles....
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3302 - 2013-12-14 18:28:17 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And who does actually know anything about blasters and railguns more than I do after flying them for 3 years ? I was there in the Drake and winmatar era, and I remember how it was. HML of this time were not better than HAML of now, they just had more range. Comparison is simple.

So let's see... You know more about blasters and railguns than anyone here after 3 years. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that remark, I will instead ask a question that might be somewhat relevant to a missile thread. Why does your complete mastery of hybrid weapons qualify you to be an expert on weapon balancing in regards to missiles?
Can I, a missile pilot for a bit more than 3 years, go into another weapon thread and start slinging my e-peen around like you have done here?
Can I, an almost completely PvE pilot for most of my characters life, go into a PvP thread and start telling everyone what they're doing wrong?
Since you're only going to pick a snippet from this response to reply to, it doesn't matter what I say here. But I do hope that someone gets a bit of a chuckle from your arrogance and lack of any qualifications to be talking about missiles. You yourself have said that whether you are flying solo in a gang, a simple missile boat will send you running back to safety quivering with fear. Maybe that is why you are here with such arrogance? Does a missile pilot have you pinned in station with his mighty Kestrel?
You just admitted that your only qualifications for posting in this thread have nothing to do with the missiles in question. Go home Bouh, and watch out for those OP Heavy Missiles....


in order to use blasters well, it is imperative that you know the capabilities of the weapons systems you fight against. Knowledge is power. Bouh is talking sense. if you listen to him you'll get more kills with missiles.

Try these techniques on the test server.

see you all in the great space brawl o/

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3303 - 2013-12-14 18:54:50 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Learn to fit, or skill up.

Let's see your RLML and HML fits...

Quote:
Nobody here understand anything about balancing and is only whining for their precious missiles, yet they talk with your blessing... The problem is that you are asking things for missiles by comparing them only in the worst case scenario for missiles vs best case scenarios for turrets

When have I ever made a comparison with missiles to any other weapon? All the arguments I've made for RLMLs, HMLs and RHMLs have been on their own merits (or lack thereof).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3304 - 2013-12-14 19:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
So let's see... You know more about blasters and railguns than anyone here after 3 years. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that remark, I will instead ask a question that might be somewhat relevant to a missile thread. Why does your complete mastery of hybrid weapons qualify you to be an expert on weapon balancing in regards to missiles?
Can I, a missile pilot for a bit more than 3 years, go into another weapon thread and start slinging my e-peen around like you have done here?
Can I, an almost completely PvE pilot for most of my characters life, go into a PvP thread and start telling everyone what they're doing wrong?
Since you're only going to pick a snippet from this response to reply to, it doesn't matter what I say here. But I do hope that someone gets a bit of a chuckle from your arrogance and lack of any qualifications to be talking about missiles. You yourself have said that whether you are flying solo in a gang, a simple missile boat will send you running back to safety quivering with fear. Maybe that is why you are here with such arrogance? Does a missile pilot have you pinned in station with his mighty Kestrel?
You just admitted that your only qualifications for posting in this thread have nothing to do with the missiles in question. Go home Bouh, and watch out for those OP Heavy Missiles....
You must be very very stupid if you only understand what you personaly expiremented.

You'll certainly don't believe me, but try to fly, that would end badly... I personaly not experimented it, but my knowledge of physics and my observations allowed me to discover that humans were not good at flying like birds, we need a parachute or something for that.

Maybe in some years when you'll have experimented on turrets you'll understand how falloff and tracking works in the game, but I'm sceptical because statistics aren't often straitforward...
Utopia Atheras
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union
#3305 - 2013-12-14 19:14:48 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bouth, just stop… Until you actually start flying the ships and missile systems we're talking about, you're just trolling.


Actually I'd advise you to read his posts carefully.



And I would advise you to take a look at his character and killboard:

https://zkillboard.com/character/755604880/top/

How many missile boats on there?
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3306 - 2013-12-14 19:43:04 UTC
here's where I might start if I were looking to solo a thorax in a caracal. Happy to test this on sisi with anyone once my daughter is in bed:

At range 8.5km, orbiting. It consistently delivers more dps to the thorax than the thorax can respond with. There is a danger if the thorax is fielding 5 ecm drones. you'd want to deal with the drones first.

It's possible that the shield booster could be replaced with a web or painter. That would need some testing.

Unbonused speed of this ship is 823m/s, easily outpacing the thorax and therefore dictating engagement range.

[Caracal, anti-thorax]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Warp Scrambler II
10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I

Warrior II x2

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3307 - 2013-12-14 20:25:33 UTC
Well, I hate to let this thread lapse - but I think we've more or less said all we can say on the new rapid light and rapid heavy missile launchers (at least I have, anyway). I guess we can further the continuing turrets vs. missiles debate (although to be honest, I'm not sure how we got on that topic), but in the absence of any further dev updates - it looks like the majority are moving on to heavy assault missile launchers.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Six Apnea
Dirty Cupcake
#3308 - 2013-12-14 20:26:15 UTC
I tackled a Sabre in an Arty/RLL fit Huginn.

All RLL emptied and the Sabre was still there. I had to plink away with the Arty to get him down... REALLY?

Powergrid on the Huginn won't allow you to put Heavy or HAMs in the RLLs place.

CONCLUSION:
Increase PG on Huginn? Or adjust the reload speed/launcher load max on RLL... seems to me the RLL is the problem.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3309 - 2013-12-14 21:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
This isn't a post about how wrong about missiles arthur is, but stating that the fit is what killed him. Not rhml.

It's easy to critique things after the fact... However, you can't escape the stark reality that an ideally fit Raven couldn't kill a Thorax. Since heavy missiles are a cruiser-sized weapon, it's not the wrong medium of choice. As for the battle itself, I ran three (yes, 3) x-large ancillary shield boosters with Navy Cap 400 boosters (that's the only thing that kept me alive for 2 reloads against a Malediction, Thorax, Harbinger, Tormentor and Vexer). I actually ran out of cap booster and by the end most of my modules were either burned out or severely damaged from overheating. The only reason the Thorax escaped at the end was because they finally managed to neut/vampire my capacitor to the point that the warp scrambler shut off.

So while I'm always open to constructive criticism, I'm not really seeing any killmails with RLMLs and RHMLs from solo (non-gang) engagements. If they don't exist, I think that speaks volumes.


Heres something i was able to wrangle up just now.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21290751

The kill is interesting for a few reasons. Its a dram, one of the fastest ships in the game. It has an afterburner. I was shooting at his highest resistance, and he was armor tanked.

Guess how many missiles i had left over? 10. It took a wopping 8 missiles to kill him. Seems like minmatar shoot missiles better than caldari. Again, damage bonus is far better than RoF for the Rapid Launchers.

The fit I was in

[Scythe Fleet Issue, RLML]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Warrior II x5

Then you say "but of course he died, you had a neut", and i say "of course he died, i fit a neut". My ships are purpose built for the job at hand. If i want them to kill frigs, they kill frigs. If i want them to kill cruisers, they kill cruisers. Nothing more, nothing less. Its built to be a speedy bastard that has cap sustainability. 4k m/s OH is quick even for a frig. At the minimum it slows the rate the frigate closes distance so you can effectively "kite" longer.

Another thing this brings to light and, in my opinion, is a bigger deal at killing frigs with missiles than the missiles themselves sometimes. Specific anti-frig ships should have a minimum of 20 drone bandwidth/space. This is where the caracal suffers. That would help offset the less than ideal dps of missiles against an a/b target. Drones could still be killed by target, so that speed tanking could still take place to defend missiles. But at least the initial volleys w/ drones could help bring the target down. Not saying thats the solution for missiles, but if they don't want to buff heavies, they could at least add drones.

So, if you wanted the details of the fight, here goes:

I was burning back to LS from NS. Got to NRAEL and encountered a solar fleet gang. 5-6 frigs, including 2-3 intys, a keres and the dram, a VNI, and 2 BC's. Gate bubbled to hell. So i knew that would be suicide, so i jumped a system out, and hung out in a safe, and waited about 2 minutes. 1 guy pops in, i scan and wait, see he's in a dram. Decide eh, he's prob armor tanked with an explo hole. Luckily, i already had nova faction missiles loaded. So i knew they were waiting on the other side of gate, so i jump to 100 off the farthest gate from the NRAEL gate. Dram then lands about 40KM from me 10 seconds later. I burn away from him, and start shooting missiles around 20KM. He closes in with scram/web and then a/b. I neut him and continue firing. And shortly after he gets scram/web, he dies. Then i found out, he was fitting for max explo hole coverage. So, he still died, with an a/b and me shooting at his 2nd strongest resist. Interesting....

Also, my missile skills are not that great. 3-5's. So, there was room for improvement.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3310 - 2013-12-14 22:15:16 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Seems like minmatar shoot missiles better than caldari. Again, damage bonus is far better than RoF for the Rapid Launchers.

I think you nailed it right there. I was looking at some Scythe fits the other day and man are those things fast. Damage definitely trumps rate-of-fire when using any of the rapid launchers.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3311 - 2013-12-14 22:22:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
here's where I might start if I were looking to solo a thorax in a caracal. Happy to test this on sisi with anyone once my daughter is in bed:

At range 8.5km, orbiting. It consistently delivers more dps to the thorax than the thorax can respond with. There is a danger if the thorax is fielding 5 ecm drones. you'd want to deal with the drones first.

It's possible that the shield booster could be replaced with a web or painter. That would need some testing.

Unbonused speed of this ship is 823m/s, easily outpacing the thorax and therefore dictating engagement range.

[Caracal, anti-thorax]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Warp Scrambler II
10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I

Warrior II x2



That looks decent, gave me the idea for this fit. This should easily kill frigs, as they'll be immobile and easy to get max damage. Could prob even tank a couple frigs as well.

[Caracal, Anti-frig]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

10MN Afterburner II
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 150
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 150
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Warrior II x2

Has lower sig thanks to no extenders. Can tank 250 dps (320 OH) with each booster, or 400 (640OH) combined. This could easily nuke frigs. Maybe not a thorax, could be interesting though if you were able to mitigate dps into the 250 range though with a/b. EDIT: just ran in EFT, thorax with neutrons and 2 mag stabs will do 248dps at 6km and drops down significantly from there. You could technically speed tank him and rep with LASBs at that range, and wait out the reload if soloing. Not ideal.. but doesn't mean you will die hilariously to them if you run into one while hunting frigs.

Just for reference, does 200 dps to an a/b fit dram. 330 dps total with faction missiles. Max 330 dps if dram didn't have a/b, just mwd.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#3312 - 2013-12-14 22:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleb Seremshur
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


Reiterating what you said in here

Quote:
We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.


Just to remind people that these changes to rapid launchers were introduced because there was no reason to use other weapons systems with the previous RLML/RHML set up. Whether or not the change was too extreme is a different question.

I personally would rather see the rapid launchers function more Like This (0m47s) & 2m24s
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#3313 - 2013-12-14 23:10:22 UTC
Utopia Atheras wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bouth, just stop… Until you actually start flying the ships and missile systems we're talking about, you're just trolling.


Actually I'd advise you to read his posts carefully.



And I would advise you to take a look at his character and killboard:

https://zkillboard.com/character/755604880/top/

How many missile boats on there?


Bouh is a gallente troll, all he cares about are hybrid weapons, facts are not important to him in his quest to manipulate ccp into buffing gallente through his meta gaming. He has infested lots of threads about missiles, ships and ship stats and performance with the same goal of buffing gallente and nerfing others. I recommend that you all ignore or block him as reading his posts are a waste of time that you will never get back. I like people with strong opinions and I like it when people back them up with reasoned argument or facts. This has never happened with Bouh.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3314 - 2013-12-15 01:06:19 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


Reiterating what you said in here

Quote:
We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.


Just to remind people that these changes to rapid launchers were introduced because there was no reason to use other weapons systems with the previous RLML/RHML set up. Whether or not the change was too extreme is a different question.

I personally would rather see the rapid launchers function more Like This (0m47s) & 2m24s

I think that what many people are saying is that this was mostly because all the other missile systems are borderline unusable. RLMLs probably did need their fitting beefed up a bit but I still believe that the 40 second reload is seriously heavy handed.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3315 - 2013-12-15 01:18:48 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I personally would rather see the rapid launchers function more Like This (0m47s) & 2m24s

0.5 second rate of fire with a 40-second reload, sure. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3316 - 2013-12-15 02:56:09 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Well, I hate to let this thread lapse - but I think we've more or less said all we can say on the new rapid light and rapid heavy missile launchers (at least I have, anyway). I guess we can further the continuing turrets vs. missiles debate (although to be honest, I'm not sure how we got on that topic), but in the absence of any further dev updates - it looks like the majority are moving on to heavy assault missile launchers.

Yep they work "ok"on my cerb but then it is 200 mil ship but on the caracal without perfect skills its REALLY tight and i can in no way play the way i was before.
But hey on the bright side maybe this is the push i needed to unsub.

"What you talking about willis"
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3317 - 2013-12-15 03:02:32 UTC
Maxor Swift wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Well, I hate to let this thread lapse - but I think we've more or less said all we can say on the new rapid light and rapid heavy missile launchers (at least I have, anyway). I guess we can further the continuing turrets vs. missiles debate (although to be honest, I'm not sure how we got on that topic), but in the absence of any further dev updates - it looks like the majority are moving on to heavy assault missile launchers.

Yep they work "ok"on my cerb but then it is 200 mil ship but on the caracal without perfect skills its REALLY tight and i can in no way play the way i was before.
But hey on the bright side maybe this is the push i needed to unsub.

Yep, CCP40sec and his latest round of ideas were what it took for me to drop mine.
Pretty sure they're saying good riddance...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3318 - 2013-12-15 03:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Maxor Swift wrote:
But hey on the bright side maybe this is the push i needed to unsub.

Speaking of effective launchers and ammunition... I got beaned several times with a volley of snowballs from an unbelievable distance today. Scared the crap out of me on the undock! Why is it that we can ensure the launchers are effective for Christmas - just not the rest of the time.
Roll


scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Yep, CCP40sec and his latest round of ideas were what it took for me to drop mine.
Pretty sure they're saying good riddance...

"Oh, he's making a list... he's checking it twice... he's gonna find out who's been nerfing the 'lights'..."

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3319 - 2013-12-15 08:29:31 UTC
Bumping up the ladder, just because

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Chigurh Friendo
Fight The Blob
#3320 - 2013-12-15 10:51:05 UTC
Rise, when are we going to hear more about whatever progress has been made on developing the ammo reload vs. ammo swapping time differential implementation for RLMLs?

I was under the impression that there were technical limitations... but that otherwise it was a "we're for sure doing this" type of change. Any new information that you can shed some light on?