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Perfect ME Level
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Nyrak
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-11-21 14:45:27 UTC
I noticed a difference from two different sources in terms of the "perfect" ME level.

For example, the Assault Missile Launcher blueprint has a "perfect" ME level = 100 when using the BPO Calculator. Yet with EveMon under the Blueprint browser tab, the same blueprint has a "perfect" ME level = 101.

It seems EveMon is rounding the numbers upward while the calculator is rounding the number downward as was the past practice. I am wondering which source is correct.

Sorry I could not link the web sites since the forums are not letting me create links this morning.
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#2 - 2011-11-21 14:57:55 UTC
BPO Calc and Chruker.dk both say ME 100.

Probably a glitch with rounding.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-21 15:09:42 UTC
but those BPC's on market with, i dont know, 500 ME are going to sell before yours

dont you love it?

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#4 - 2011-11-21 15:44:42 UTC
ME 500 on this bpo ? made me lol LolLolLol
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-11-21 16:21:50 UTC
i didnt look for any BPO's, i just made the number up.

I was just saying that there are plenty of over researched blueprints out there, and they WILL sell before yours if thats what you plan on doing.

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2011-11-21 16:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
The differing number are simply explained: it depends on if you start with numbers from an in-game BPO, or the ones in the CCP database dump. The formula is simple for a 10% BPO, but people apply it incorrectly in one case or the other.

Perfect M.E. on a BPO with 10% base waste at M.E. 0 =
Using numbers from the database dump: FLOOR(largest material quantity subject to waste / 5)
Using numbers from an in-game BPO: FLOOR(largest material quantity subject to waste / 5.5)

The database numbers do not have the 10% applied, hence the well-known divisor of 5. However in-game numbers are already 10% higher at M.E. 0, so the divisor must increase by 10%.

For all math, I've written on this topic a couple of times: Formula for calculating perfect ME/PE?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1297383&page=1#18
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2011-11-21 16:24:04 UTC
When I see ME 100 on BPCs that just need 25, it makes me smile. (Not this case, of course, but it's far from uncommon.)

Either people don't understand opportunity costs, don't understand how ME actually works, or are doing it for a sales advantage with people that don't understand the two former.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2011-11-21 16:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Steve Ronuken wrote:
When I see ME 100 on BPCs that just need 25, it makes me smile. (Not this case, of course, but it's far from uncommon.)

Either people don't understand opportunity costs, don't understand how ME actually works, or are doing it for a sales advantage with people that don't understand the two former.

M.E. 20 on a 10% base waste BPO is 10% / (1 + 20) = 0.47% waste < 0.5% waste which is usually good enough.

I only recommend researching ammo to perfect, as one makes thousands of production runs of that, and the research time is reasonable.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-11-21 16:33:52 UTC
WTB time machine so that i can research a perfect Raven BPO

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#10 - 2011-11-21 16:58:06 UTC
mmm, typical example where perfect ME means nothing

Perfect ME on Raven BPO takes 17540 years LolLolLol

Example:

Research it to ME 100 takes 234 days and you're like 100k isk more than the perfect ME price. Costs POS fuel and you lock a ME slot for 234 days, without building anything, so you have negative income = isk loss (No, POS fuels aren't free, even if you make them)

At ME 50 you're 200k isk more than perfect.

Ok, now within the 234 days, including research ME 50, how many ships will you build and sell ?

It takes 5 hours to build a ship at PE 0, and 117 days to ME your BPO

Answer 561 ships, this is nearly 45b isk

See ? 0 vs 45b, guess who wins Blink
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-11-21 18:09:30 UTC
Esunisen wrote:

Answer 561 ships, this is nearly 45b isk

See ? 0 vs 45b, guess who wins Blink

confirming the minerals you mine are free

gg

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#12 - 2011-11-21 18:35:07 UTC
Fraa Bjorn
Cell 317
#13 - 2011-11-21 19:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fraa Bjorn
Yeah, Evemon has that bug. One thing you can do though (that seems to work correctly with evemon) is to manually change the ME on the BPO, and verify youself what the lowest "perfect" ME is. You'll notice that Evemon correctly shows, e.g., no difference between material requirements between ME 100 and ME101, yet still claim that perfect ME is 101.

Edit; grab the datadump, and do your own research - personally, I've stopped trusting other tools than my own - these annoying inconsistencies are everywhere it seems :(

All games have QQ, but only Eve has Q.Q
TrollFace TrololMcFluf
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-11-21 20:56:53 UTC
There is a difference between perfect ME and viable cost efficient ME

Wasting several hours/days/weeks to knock several hundred isk worth of trit off a blueprint is a total waste of time money and effort and is one of the reasons that every high-low sec ME research slot is always full the sooner people learn this the better god forbid we dont need anymore ME 4500 hoboblin blueprints knocking around jita
Phyress
Isumi Industries
#15 - 2011-11-21 23:14:12 UTC
What's a good rule of thumb for a target ME?

Something like...
>1% for ships
>0.2% for modules
>0.05% for ammo?

Or is there simply too much of a difference of scale within each class?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#16 - 2011-11-22 04:32:56 UTC
Well, a large tower can have somewhere around 36-39 ME slots (plus copy/invent slots). Let's say you have 60 productive slots on a large tower (maybe 75). Fuel costs at the moment are around 375M ISK/mo up to 400M ISK/mo. Which gives you an approximate slot cost of 7000-9000 ISK/hr. But I also expect fuel prices to go up to more like 450-500M/mo for a large tower.

Will that extra hour of research time save you more then 6700-9800 ISK in waste over a few months of production?

For T1 ammo (small up through large), I'd put a reasonable ME at an optimal level calculated somewhere between 25 and 45. Now I'm just lazy and run them all at 50/15 (ME/PE). Most of the T1 ammo BPOs can be easily researched to 50/15 in the space of about a week. But at 9000 ISK/hr for lab time, that's about 1.5M ISK invested in each of the BPOs.

For T1 modules, I'd try to get waste below 0.30%, basically 1 weeks of research time. For the larger T1 modules (worth more then 1M ISK/unit) it might be worth closer to 2 weeks of research time.

Ships are harder - frigates are probably only worth 7-10 days of POS lab time, with bigger hulls being worth more and more lab time up until you hit the 30 day mark. Battleships - might be worth 45-60 days of research time. Again, run the numbers and ask:

Will that extra week of lab time save me more then 1.5M ISK over a 3 or 6 month production run of the item?
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#17 - 2011-11-22 06:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Esunisen
Phyress wrote:
What's a good rule of thumb for a target ME?

Or is there simply too much of a difference of scale within each class?


The raising speed of ME is different for each bpo, i.e. ME 19 needs nearly 30 days on ships, and Heavy Scourge needs less than 6 days for perfect (ME 147). Some bpo with very few materials are even perfect at ME 0.

Give a try on this BPO Calc, it saves many maths P
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
#18 - 2011-11-22 08:50:27 UTC
Esunisen wrote:
...

Example:

Research it to ME 100 takes 234 days and you're like 100k isk more than the perfect ME price. Costs POS fuel and you lock a ME slot for 234 days, without building anything, so you have negative income = isk loss (No, POS fuels aren't free, even if you make them)

At ME 50 you're 200k isk more than perfect.

Ok, now within the 234 days, including research ME 50, how many ships will you build and sell ?

It takes 5 hours to build a ship at PE 0, and 117 days to ME your BPO

Answer 561 ships, this is nearly 45b isk

See ? 0 vs 45b, guess who wins Blink
With your math I can sell my 60 Raven prints after 234 days of research for NPC price and have my ~58B vs your 45B, guess who wins now!?

Esunisen wrote:
Revenue =/= Profit

K ?

Take your own advice and calculate with profit margins ... not with revenues, which nobody is interested in
Phyress
Isumi Industries
#19 - 2011-11-22 09:42:19 UTC
Esunisen wrote:
Give a try on this BPO Calc, it saves many maths P


Thanks! It also makes it clear why most contract Carrier BPCs are ME2... it's probably not worth the extra investment time to ME3 worth it to cut the cost by a single Capital Drone Bay Lol
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#20 - 2011-11-22 12:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Esunisen
Lutz Major wrote:
With your math I can sell my 60 Raven prints after 234 days of research for NPC price and have my ~58B vs your 45B, guess who wins now!?



Sorry didn't get it. You sell your ME 50 bpo for 58B ? Scam spotted.

After 234 days all you have is your researched bpo and your fuel loss, you can't copy/invent or do anything during research.

Quote:
Take your own advice and calculate with profit margins ... not with revenues, which nobody is interested in


I am not interested in profit. Doesn't mean i like losses. All my manufacturing profit is reinvested.