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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3261 - 2013-12-13 19:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Based on my one direct interaction with him I believe the "Rise hates missiles" line of thinking is definitely false. That said, just because he doesn't hate missiles doesn't mean he is actually right about their current state in the game or about what needs to be done with them. I think he honestly thought the new rapid launchers were a good idea that would be "fun" to use. He was wrong. It happens.
That's what is fun with being right or wrong in this kind of circumstances : I think He think to be right and you are wrong, and I do the same whereas you think the opposite. Who is right and who is wrong then ?

Well, until now the facts seems to be pointing that the weapon is not as hated as people here hates it (numbers Rise and Fozzie talked about), and there haven't been any Jita riot like some here have said would happen.

We are only half a dozen talking about them here for some time now, and the "haters" still don't want to look at reality as nobody still provided numbers for more average and regular use cases. There have been some tests, but not without flaws (testing is hard though, as thinking that the weapons are bad before starting the test will affect the results in the desired direction ; you'll be prone to be bad if you think your weapons are bad).

PS : and as boring as I can be in your eyes, I'm only trying to help you bring real arguments to Rise here. But focusing on worst cases to say that the results are bad is kind of obvious and won't catch the attention of the dev.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3262 - 2013-12-13 19:39:05 UTC
There have also been no tests showing them to be effective at anything close to a realistic scenario outside of gang-spam warfare.
If I said I had numbers showing how much they absolutely suck more than a $2 hooker, I would die under a barrage of posts telling me to prove it. And until I could prove it I would be making completely unsubstantiated claims. Why is it that 40sec and Fizzle can say there are metrics showing whatever they want them to say and they are upheld as the truth? Why the double-standard in the turret community? :)
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3263 - 2013-12-13 19:39:20 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Well, until now the facts seems to be pointing that the weapon is not as hated as people here hates it (numbers Rise and Fozzie talked about), and there haven't been any Jita riot like some here have said would happen.


Jita riots over a single weapon system getting screwed? I don't think anyone who suggested that was serious. And if people like these things why are none of them in this thread, and why are the killboards nearly devoid of them? The answer is obvious to me, but I'm sure it won't be to you.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3264 - 2013-12-13 19:58:48 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Well, until now the facts seems to be pointing that the weapon is not as hated as people here hates it (numbers Rise and Fozzie talked about), and there haven't been any Jita riot like some here have said would happen.


Jita riots over a single weapon system getting screwed? I don't think anyone who suggested that was serious. And if people like these things why are none of them in this thread, and why are the killboards nearly devoid of them? The answer is obvious to me, but I'm sure it won't be to you.
My math teacher thought integral calculus obvious. Since then, I know there's no such thing as "obvious".

And people who like the weapon system are playing the game I guess ; why would they come here in the first place ?

@scorchlikeshiswhiskey : actually there have been some tests, but they have been completely ignored and drowned in the rants.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3265 - 2013-12-13 20:09:33 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Well, until now the facts seems to be pointing that the weapon is not as hated as people here hates it (numbers Rise and Fozzie talked about), and there haven't been any Jita riot like some here have said would happen.


Jita riots over a single weapon system getting screwed? I don't think anyone who suggested that was serious. And if people like these things why are none of them in this thread, and why are the killboards nearly devoid of them? The answer is obvious to me, but I'm sure it won't be to you.
My math teacher thought integral calculus obvious. Since then, I know there's no such thing as "obvious".

And people who like the weapon system are playing the game I guess ; why would they come here in the first place ?

@scorchlikeshiswhiskey : actually there have been some tests, but they have been completely ignored and drowned in the rants.


So let me get this straight. The people who hate these weapon systems come here to complain but the people who like them don't post here barely at all because they are too busy playing the game? Good lord that's dumb.

Anyway, I'm done. I am wasting brain cells responding to your endlessly circular logic. Hiding posts and moving on.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#3266 - 2013-12-13 20:42:09 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
Missiles main problem is velocity, overall missiles always always lose over other weapons due to poor alpha damage. If you're going to introduce velocity as a factor then the alpha needs to be much higher then projectiles. You want an instant alpha? Fine use turrets but if you want max alpha, even with a delay, then use these rapid firing bays.

Missiles are DEAD last to be picked for incursions and currently the ONLY DPS flavor is Vindicator and Mach, followed by Nightmare.


What's funny about what you're saying is that cruise missiles on a navy raven pretty much completely owns all those ships in terms of long range DPS against PVE targets (read lots of slow battleships). The reason that missile ships are less sought after for incursions has a lot more to do with prejudice against them in general, a lack of a missile specialized pirate faction, and a general preference for armor tanking. And yes flight time sucks, but it's not a reason to skip over a ship that does far more damage to an NPC battleship than any other incursion BS.

All that said, if they were to double the damage of missiles and halve their fire rate across the board I wouldn't complain. Hell that would make the rapid launchers much, much better come to think of it.


Really? A dominix can just sit there, drop drones and collect bacon. Flying skills? What flying skills, just park the shoe ship in a mission, and deploy sentry drones.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#3267 - 2013-12-13 20:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Hey guys, unless something dramatic pops up - like CCP responding to what has been discussed recently, then I'm done on this thread. Its been... emotional ;-)

Some final thoughts.

1. Bouh - you are not always wrong on some of your thoughts, particularly on guns, I do appreciate issues like the tracking / transversal etc. But they are more flexible, especially in gang, than you give them credit for, and you tend to over estimate the effectiveness of missiles by a wide margin. And while they are undoubtedly cruiser guns are weaker against frigates than either the old or new RLML, they are also far better than missiles at pretty much everything else. I hope you put SISI on and test some new ideas out. Good luck with the FW stuff, should be fun as Test try for 100% victory.

2. I will be setting up some small gangs among friends to play more with Thorax's. They will be rail fit, with a peak active tank of 900hp a second - a pretty epic tank number I think you'll agree for T1. Should be fun. If it wasn't for Bouh telling me how bad they were, I doubt I'd have realised how much potential they had in a gang setup lol Big smile

3. I'm not sure where the future is regarding Caldari. I know I'm switching to other races for now, but not given up hope of one day trying to FC Caldari only fleets. Personally, I feel a global resistance nerf was perhaps the last thing Caldari needed - and I understand all the tanking benefits that resistance offers, and CCP's desire to nerf it, I'm just not sure given the races drawbacks of having large signatures, meh speed and fitting limitations across the board, along with the worst resist hole in the game, that was such a great idea. I have to imagine if you look at the Metrics, that most Caldari ships rank as the least used these days. They still have a few things going for them, despite CCP's best attempts at killing them off. Despite their disadvantages, it at least makes them fascinating to try to play.

4. So missiles. We've covered a lot in this thread, with some great posters, some emphatic, sometimes bias debate on both sides, but I think there are a clear set of things that have dropped out of it all, and I only hope CCP take it onboard, weigh it up, and give us more choices as players to make picking any race, a viable, fun option as long as its fit right.

4. A: RLML/RHML - the 40 second mechanic is a major barrier to their use and uptake long term. Quite simply, interest in these weapons will diminish over the coming months, which is perhaps what CCP wanted, but definitely not the way to go about it. A straight forward nerf would have been painful, but overall accepted as long as it didn't make the RLML the new Heavy Missile Launcher which brings me to my last point.

4. B: Heavy Missiles are simply not fit for purpose in the game. Given their low starting damage, combined with the ships that fit them, inherent mid slot limitations, tied to an inability to hit their targets properly unless you bring fleet size worth of e-war, they are just not worth undocking with, especially given the vast array of alternatives. Nobody is going to fly a ship that does less damage in reality, than the Light Missile launcher - a launcher designed for frigates.

Lastly, if any folks are interested (and some already have contacted me) I will be taking out small gangs again, and folks are welcome to come along. E-mail me for details.

Fly safe o/

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3268 - 2013-12-13 21:28:23 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
Missiles main problem is velocity, overall missiles always always lose over other weapons due to poor alpha damage. If you're going to introduce velocity as a factor then the alpha needs to be much higher then projectiles. You want an instant alpha? Fine use turrets but if you want max alpha, even with a delay, then use these rapid firing bays.

Missiles are DEAD last to be picked for incursions and currently the ONLY DPS flavor is Vindicator and Mach, followed by Nightmare.


What's funny about what you're saying is that cruise missiles on a navy raven pretty much completely owns all those ships in terms of long range DPS against PVE targets (read lots of slow battleships). The reason that missile ships are less sought after for incursions has a lot more to do with prejudice against them in general, a lack of a missile specialized pirate faction, and a general preference for armor tanking. And yes flight time sucks, but it's not a reason to skip over a ship that does far more damage to an NPC battleship than any other incursion BS.

All that said, if they were to double the damage of missiles and halve their fire rate across the board I wouldn't complain. Hell that would make the rapid launchers much, much better come to think of it.


Really? A dominix can just sit there, drop drones and collect bacon. Flying skills? What flying skills, just park the shoe ship in a mission, and deploy sentry drones.


Oops, forgot about the overpowered shoe of doom.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3269 - 2013-12-14 00:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
The average for my post was based on highest speed in class compared to the other presumed target of the weapon, frigates. The average speed of frigates vs fast cruisers and the ability of RLML to hit them.

Ok lets say we use your, logic (for want of a better word) and use a rupture to balance light missiles. We end up with a light missile that can hit 1 of the slowest ship in its class, now because we want to keep it balanced we tune down how well light missiles hit the rupture so it isn't an easy kill and upset all those who fly them.

This could work, except light missiles are meant for killing frigates and "fast" cruisers which they will not be able to do as they are now balanced for a different class of fighting - they would no longer be any good at all vs the ships they were designed to counter. The job of countering Cruisers and battlecruisers is meant to be HM, sadly they do not perform in this role. Hams will go close to doing their job as long as you don't want to fit a tank as well because those slots will be taken up with prop mod, web and scram, leaving 2 slots for tank. How good is that.

Arthur's charts, if you care to look show how different missiles compare to each other in different configurations and vs different ships. This has nothing at all to do with how they compare to turrets, that is something entirely different. Frankly at this stage it is something I really don't care about. The discussion has been about a way to get missiles to hit their intended targets in the intended way.
Ok, so we basicaly agree for the graphs I guess.

But you are plain wrong for the roles of the different launchers : RLML are NOT meant to shoot at cruisers, only frigates and destroyers ; and HML are NOT the goto medium missile launcher to shoot at cruisers, this role is HAML one. HML are the missiles you use to shoot at long range. If you don't need long range, don't use HML, use HAML instead. And if you need more firepower against frigates, use RLML, but avoid cruisers then. If you need to shoot both cruisers and frigates, HAML +scram+web will do the job fine.

2 mid slots shield tank is fine BTW when you factor in everything else : with shield, you don't lose speed, and there is no cruiser both as fast as the Caracal and more resilient than him. Just check it : armor attack cruiser with more than a 800mm plate will be very slow, and a Thorax with 800mm plate, DCU + EANM + adaptive plating (4slots) have less ehp than your Caracal with DCU+LSE+invuln (3slots). Also, such a Thorax will only have 400 blaster dps, same as your HAML Caracal, but with three times less range and have to deal with tracking. You don't need 35kehp on your attack cruiser for it to be useful, moreover when you have plenty of range and speed.
Ok, I'm sorry Bouh but you are really coming across like you have no clue what your talking about.
Forgetting your plain incorrect argument about the roles of different missile systems, we'll move on to your 2 slot shield tank being adequate.

Ham Caracal with 1LSE, T2 invul, DCU and 2 Extender rigs (ancillary current router required to fit HAMS) = 18,522 EHP, 1800m/s, 379DPS (factions) and has to fight at -10k due to needing Scram and web to be able to hit anything. 979 sig with MWD, 167 without MWD.
Blaster Thorax with 800 T2 plate 2EANM, DCU and 3 trimarks = 22,394k EHP, 1500m/s, 385DPS guns + 124 drones= 509 DPS same range due to scram and web, 720 sig with MWD, 120 without MWD. Has small cap booster to help maintain mobility.

Resists;
Thorax - 74 , 67 , 66 , 53
Caracal - 39 , 51 , 64 , 70

These are both ships I have used on tranquility ( with another toon) and are currently in my ship hanger. Both ships have around the same cap time, Thorax has small booster (so can run MWD constantly), caracal is dead in space after 1min 20sec.
I think you need to get off EFT, train up for caldari and stop guessing as to "how good" they are, fighting in Web range, Thorax has it all over Caracal.

I have lost 2 caracal's to thorax's but never killed a thorax with a caracal. I'm no ace PVP'r and am the 1st to admit I'm pretty bad at it. I switched the toon in question to Guns after realising I could not compete in 1v1 PVP with missiles.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3270 - 2013-12-14 01:35:09 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
The average for my post was based on highest speed in class compared to the other presumed target of the weapon, frigates. The average speed of frigates vs fast cruisers and the ability of RLML to hit them.

Ok lets say we use your, logic (for want of a better word) and use a rupture to balance light missiles. We end up with a light missile that can hit 1 of the slowest ship in its class, now because we want to keep it balanced we tune down how well light missiles hit the rupture so it isn't an easy kill and upset all those who fly them.

This could work, except light missiles are meant for killing frigates and "fast" cruisers which they will not be able to do as they are now balanced for a different class of fighting - they would no longer be any good at all vs the ships they were designed to counter. The job of countering Cruisers and battlecruisers is meant to be HM, sadly they do not perform in this role. Hams will go close to doing their job as long as you don't want to fit a tank as well because those slots will be taken up with prop mod, web and scram, leaving 2 slots for tank. How good is that.

Arthur's charts, if you care to look show how different missiles compare to each other in different configurations and vs different ships. This has nothing at all to do with how they compare to turrets, that is something entirely different. Frankly at this stage it is something I really don't care about. The discussion has been about a way to get missiles to hit their intended targets in the intended way.
Ok, so we basicaly agree for the graphs I guess.

But you are plain wrong for the roles of the different launchers : RLML are NOT meant to shoot at cruisers, only frigates and destroyers ; and HML are NOT the goto medium missile launcher to shoot at cruisers, this role is HAML one. HML are the missiles you use to shoot at long range. If you don't need long range, don't use HML, use HAML instead. And if you need more firepower against frigates, use RLML, but avoid cruisers then. If you need to shoot both cruisers and frigates, HAML +scram+web will do the job fine.

2 mid slots shield tank is fine BTW when you factor in everything else : with shield, you don't lose speed, and there is no cruiser both as fast as the Caracal and more resilient than him. Just check it : armor attack cruiser with more than a 800mm plate will be very slow, and a Thorax with 800mm plate, DCU + EANM + adaptive plating (4slots) have less ehp than your Caracal with DCU+LSE+invuln (3slots). Also, such a Thorax will only have 400 blaster dps, same as your HAML Caracal, but with three times less range and have to deal with tracking. You don't need 35kehp on your attack cruiser for it to be useful, moreover when you have plenty of range and speed.
Ok, I'm sorry Bouh but you are really coming across like you have no clue what your talking about.
Forgetting your plain incorrect argument about the roles of different missile systems, we'll move on to your 2 slot shield tank being adequate.

Ham Caracal with 1LSE, T2 invul, DCU and 2 Extender rigs (ancillary current router required to fit HAMS) = 18,522 EHP, 1800m/s, 379DPS (factions) and has to fight at -10k due to needing Scram and web to be able to hit anything. 979 sig with MWD, 167 without MWD.
Blaster Thorax with 800 T2 plate 2EANM, DCU and 3 trimarks = 22,394k EHP, 1500m/s, 385DPS guns + 124 drones= 509 DPS same range due to scram and web, 720 sig with MWD, 120 without MWD. Has small cap booster to help maintain mobility.

Resists;
Thorax - 74 , 67 , 66 , 53
Caracal - 39 , 51 , 64 , 70

These are both ships I have used on tranquility ( with another toon) and are currently in my ship hanger. Both ships have around the same cap time, Thorax has small booster (so can run MWD constantly), caracal is dead in space after 1min 20sec.
I think you need to get off EFT, train up for caldari and stop guessing as to "how good" they are, fighting in Web range, Thorax has it all over Caracal.

I have lost 2 caracal's to thorax's but never killed a thorax with a caracal. I'm no ace PVP'r and am the 1st to admit I'm pretty bad at it. I switched the toon in question to Guns after realising I could not compete in 1v1 PVP with missiles.


He will ignore your numbers, try to change the topic, and generally continue to argue around your point rather than actually addressing it. You are wasting your time.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3271 - 2013-12-14 02:05:57 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

fighting in Web range, Thorax has it all over Caracal.


This is probably as it should be

Sgt Ocker wrote:

I switched the toon in question to Guns after realising I could not compete in 1v1 PVP with missiles.


This is probably not as is should be.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3272 - 2013-12-14 02:30:29 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:


The reason that missile ships are less sought after for incursions has a lot more to do with prejudice against them in general, a lack of a missile specialized pirate faction, and a general preference for armor tanking. And yes flight time sucks, but it's not a reason to skip over a ship that does far more damage to an NPC battleship than any other incursion BS.


Actually missile flight time pretty much guarantees you will lose any contest to a fleet with turrets. THAT is why no one uses missiles.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3273 - 2013-12-14 03:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Moonaura wrote:
Hey guys, unless something dramatic pops up - like CCP responding to what has been discussed recently, then I'm done on this thread. Its been... emotional ;-)

Some final thoughts.

1. Bouh - you are not always wrong on some of your thoughts, particularly on guns, I do appreciate issues like the tracking / transversal etc. But they are more flexible, especially in gang, than you give them credit for, and you tend to over estimate the effectiveness of missiles by a wide margin. And while they are undoubtedly cruiser guns are weaker against frigates than either the old or new RLML, they are also far better than missiles at pretty much everything else. I hope you put SISI on and test some new ideas out. Good luck with the FW stuff, should be fun as Test try for 100% victory.

2. I will be setting up some small gangs among friends to play more with Thorax's. They will be rail fit, with a peak active tank of 900hp a second - a pretty epic tank number I think you'll agree for T1. Should be fun. If it wasn't for Bouh telling me how bad they were, I doubt I'd have realised how much potential they had in a gang setup lol Big smile

3. I'm not sure where the future is regarding Caldari. I know I'm switching to other races for now, but not given up hope of one day trying to FC Caldari only fleets. Personally, I feel a global resistance nerf was perhaps the last thing Caldari needed - and I understand all the tanking benefits that resistance offers, and CCP's desire to nerf it, I'm just not sure given the races drawbacks of having large signatures, meh speed and fitting limitations across the board, along with the worst resist hole in the game, that was such a great idea. I have to imagine if you look at the Metrics, that most Caldari ships rank as the least used these days. They still have a few things going for them, despite CCP's best attempts at killing them off. Despite their disadvantages, it at least makes them fascinating to try to play.

4. So missiles. We've covered a lot in this thread, with some great posters, some emphatic, sometimes bias debate on both sides, but I think there are a clear set of things that have dropped out of it all, and I only hope CCP take it onboard, weigh it up, and give us more choices as players to make picking any race, a viable, fun option as long as its fit right.

4. A: RLML/RHML - the 40 second mechanic is a major barrier to their use and uptake long term. Quite simply, interest in these weapons will diminish over the coming months, which is perhaps what CCP wanted, but definitely not the way to go about it. A straight forward nerf would have been painful, but overall accepted as long as it didn't make the RLML the new Heavy Missile Launcher which brings me to my last point.

4. B: Heavy Missiles are simply not fit for purpose in the game. Given their low starting damage, combined with the ships that fit them, inherent mid slot limitations, tied to an inability to hit their targets properly unless you bring fleet size worth of e-war, they are just not worth undocking with, especially given the vast array of alternatives. Nobody is going to fly a ship that does less damage in reality, than the Light Missile launcher - a launcher designed for frigates.

Lastly, if any folks are interested (and some already have contacted me) I will be taking out small gangs again, and folks are welcome to come along. E-mail me for details.

Fly safe o/

CCP, Moonaura has summed the feedback in this thread quite well. I for one, have no reason to use missiles even in pve or pvp anymore.

HAMs are not viable in pve. HAMs are barely acceptable (at least acceptable) in pvp. HMs are dead to both PvE and PvP. There is no reason to use those atrocious...things. Cruises are decent and at least acceptable except for their insane flight-times/range. Torps are horrible with their range but at least apply damage in a marginally acceptable manner. LMs are great! Yay you haven't destroyed that yet. Rockets are great for their designed purpose as well.

Defenders are crap. Enough said.

I can get much better and consistent applied damage from turrets and drones. I have no reason to use missiles now. RHMLs that you proposed and forced on us are worthless garbage. You made one of the three viable missile systems (Cruise, HAMs and RLMLs) complete rubbish. No thank you! There is a saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."

I refused to be fooled a second time. But you have completely lost any trust that I had in you and your teams (Fozzie and Rise). I have no reason to believe that you are not rabidly hateful of missiles and caldari. The track record of brutal nerfs to Caldari ships and missiles only reinforces that perception. Yea, drake blobs were the king once. Yet, instead of approaching the issue with calm and logic you fell in with the emotionally-compromised crowd. You ignored every option offered that would have been less drastic. Now HMs are now such that they might as well not exist in the game.

RLMLs and RHMLs are now the same as the HMs. The novelty is going to wear off in the next couple weeks. Then you really will have practically killed any option that Caldari PvP and PvE pilots had. If we want to use hybrids the Moa is laughable and the Rokh there too. Serious the range bonus on those two ships is just wrong. So now I and everyone else that started as Caldari will move to Minmatar, Amarr or Gallente (most likely the last or first) if we have any sense.

There is no reason to stay on a 'sinking derelict ship'. Thank you very much for a crappy year for me personally in this game and the complete waste of a lot of people's time and effort. I am done here with what has amounted to emotional and psychological terrorism by a CCP dev on a part of the Eve Community.

Good bye Missiles and Caldari! It was great while it lasted...

ps. Hello Amarr, Winmatar and Gallente!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3274 - 2013-12-14 04:50:18 UTC
Just a quick note for those of you still attempting to use RLMLs...

3x T1 Medium Warhead Rigors ($8.4m ISK) is almost as effective as 2x T2 Medium Warhead Rigors and 1x T2 Medium Flare ($86m ISK). With T2 rigs and a Federation Navy Target Painter you will hit 100% damage application against MWD Assault Frigates and higher. By dropping to T1 rigs (and saving yourself $78m ISK in the process), you lose 6% efficiency. Note that this was a real-world comparison using my own IV and V missiles skills, so in all likelihood when you hit V in certain categories or run the odd implant (don't bother with explosion velocity, only explosion radius) this will most likely vanish.

If anyone would like to get together with their RLML Caracals (etc.) for a small gang roam, drop me an email (maybe we can do some more testing).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3275 - 2013-12-14 05:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
TL;DR - Petition to have RLML/RHML reload time reduced to 20 seconds. If you agree, "Like".
.....

Official Petition to CCP
After having spent weeks testing RLMLs and RHMLs, this is my official petition for a change to the reload time. 40-seconds is simply too easy to counter in PvP, prolongs PvE missions by allowing NPCs to easily recover and effectively eliminates the only advantage with missiles in the ability to switch to different damage types. I would like to see all stats retained, but the reload time reduced to a maximum of 20 seconds. Thanks for your consideration.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3276 - 2013-12-14 06:14:30 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
TL;DR - Petition to have RLML/RHML reload time reduced to 20 seconds. If you agree, "Like".
.....

Official Petition to CCP
After having spent weeks testing RLMLs and RHMLs, this is my official petition for a change to the reload time. 40-seconds is simply too easy to counter in PvP, prolongs PvE missions by allowing NPCs to easily recover and effectively eliminates the only advantage with missiles in the ability to switch to different damage types. I would like to see all stats retained, but the reload time reduced to a maximum of 20 seconds. Thanks for your consideration.


There's no chance of that happening. That would actually result in greater dps on the RLML than with its pre-nerfed version. If they drop the reload to 20 seconds they will also nerf the rate of fire by ~40%. Mark my words on that one.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3277 - 2013-12-14 06:30:24 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
There's no chance of that happening. That would actually result in greater dps on the RLML than with its pre-nerfed version. If they drop the reload to 20 seconds they will also nerf the rate of fire by ~40%. Mark my words on that one.

It'd actually be comparable to the old version. Or they could just put the old version back.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#3278 - 2013-12-14 06:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
So just some anecdotal evidence from a fight we had last night.

We caught a Caracal in Jamunda, and followed it to a planet once it warped off. Only one of our Interceptors got him pointed, and held him there by himself until he had to warp off from the damage. By that time I managed to warp on our fleetmate and establish secondary point. I overheated my launchers and kept firing. I had to warp off and back once due to the damage. He also deployed drones, which we killed quickly.

After that, the incoming damage seemed to drop significantly, and we all concentrated on slowly killing him. We didn't realize until after we saw the killmail why the DPS had stopped- because he was RLML fit, ran out of ammo, and hit the 40-second reload.

Killmail (copy/paste it): http://pbau.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20897612

Now from a fun factor: A weapon system designed to kill frigates couldn't kill a single one, and once out of ammo, he had to sit there waiting, while we slowly pecked him to death. Although I was happy we got a kill, I doubt it was fun or exciting for him watching his launchers flash and his shields disappear.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#3279 - 2013-12-14 06:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
TL;DR - Petition to have RLML/RHML reload time reduced to 20 seconds. If you agree, "Like".
.....

Official Petition to CCP
After having spent weeks testing RLMLs and RHMLs, this is my official petition for a change to the reload time. 40-seconds is simply too easy to counter in PvP, prolongs PvE missions by allowing NPCs to easily recover and effectively eliminates the only advantage with missiles in the ability to switch to different damage types. I would like to see all stats retained, but the reload time reduced to a maximum of 20 seconds. Thanks for your consideration.


How about creating an actual petition using change.org or a similar website so you can track signatures and pass it around in game?

-edit- I don't like having specific solutions really in a petition though, since we can always debate about whether 15 seconds or 20 seconds is sufficient, or if there's a better solution altogether. Would rather the petition just be for getting numbers to show the people who are dissatisfied with the current iteration.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3280 - 2013-12-14 07:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Ransu Asanari wrote:
-edit- I don't like having specific solutions really in a petition though, since we can always debate about whether 15 seconds or 20 seconds is sufficient, or if there's a better solution altogether. Would rather the petition just be for getting numbers to show the people who are dissatisfied with the current iteration.

What I really want is the old RLMLs back and the first iteration for RHMLs. They weren't "op", and the above example is just one of many we'll be hearing in the coming weeks and months.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.