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[ Proposal] PI / POCO Changes

Author
princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-12-09 17:13:02 UTC
Now that we have had some time to reflect on the PI / POCO changes in this latest update, I would like to suggest a few tweaks.

1. SET THE NPC TAX RATE TO ZERO WHEN A PLAYER CORP SETS UP A POCO. Lets think this one through for a moment - why should Interbus (the NPC) get ANY tax at all once their customs office is destroyed? It makes no sense - it is akin to paying rent to a 0.0 corp for a system they no longer control. It also makes the Hisec POCOs much less profitable for the player corps that have invested the 100M or so necessary destroy an Interbus Customs Office and set up their own. Interbus deserves NOTHING, NADA, ZERO from planets where they have no customs office.

2. APPLY CUSTOMS CODE EXPERTISE TO POCO TAX RATES. I was not a big fan of this skill in the first place, but if you are going to say that training this skill gives you such expert tax knowledge that you can avoid 50% of the customs duty at level 5, then go ahead and apply it to POCOs as well. Player corps can set their tax rates with the sure and certain knowledge that anyone who cares a whit about PI will be training this to level 5 anyway, and it makes the skill consistent.

3. TAX FREE PLANETARY LAUNCHES. Throughout history, there have been those daring individuals who seek to maximize profits by evading customs duties - they are called SMUGGLERS. The planetary complex you build, full of your own people - should not be sending ISK payments out every time you do a planetary launch. Instead, keep the ISK and take the RISK - make the planetary launch tax free from NPC and POCO taxes, but make the pickup of such a container in orbit a suspect-flagging offense, and make the materials in the container appear as loot in a smugglers wreck when destroyed. This motivates both smuggling and tax code enforcement by corps with POCOs --

Flame on.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2 - 2013-12-09 18:10:39 UTC
princess minervia wrote:
Now that we have had some time to reflect on the PI / POCO changes in this latest update, I would like to suggest a few tweaks.

1. SET THE NPC TAX RATE TO ZERO WHEN A PLAYER CORP SETS UP A POCO. Lets think this one through for a moment - why should Interbus (the NPC) get ANY tax at all once their customs office is destroyed? It makes no sense - it is akin to paying rent to a 0.0 corp for a system they no longer control. It also makes the Hisec POCOs much less profitable for the player corps that have invested the 100M or so necessary destroy an Interbus Customs Office and set up their own. Interbus deserves NOTHING, NADA, ZERO from planets where they have no customs office.

2. APPLY CUSTOMS CODE EXPERTISE TO POCO TAX RATES. I was not a big fan of this skill in the first place, but if you are going to say that training this skill gives you such expert tax knowledge that you can avoid 50% of the customs duty at level 5, then go ahead and apply it to POCOs as well. Player corps can set their tax rates with the sure and certain knowledge that anyone who cares a whit about PI will be training this to level 5 anyway, and it makes the skill consistent.

3. TAX FREE PLANETARY LAUNCHES. Throughout history, there have been those daring individuals who seek to maximize profits by evading customs duties - they are called SMUGGLERS. The planetary complex you build, full of your own people - should not be sending ISK payments out every time you do a planetary launch. Instead, keep the ISK and take the RISK - make the planetary launch tax free from NPC and POCO taxes, but make the pickup of such a container in orbit a suspect-flagging offense, and make the materials in the container appear as loot in a smugglers wreck when destroyed. This motivates both smuggling and tax code enforcement by corps with POCOs --

Flame on.


1.) Absolutely NO. If I can setup my own POCO in highsec, and remove all taxes for important & exporting to it, then there is very little incentive to setup a POCO in lowsec or nullsec. Highsec POCO's are much harder to destroy (no caps, need a wardec, etc), and while highsec planets produce less, many, many POCO activites aren't centered on direct production, but for manufacturing higher tier goods from lower tier goods. The tax helps balance using the little-risk highsec activities from the much higher risk lowsec/nullsec activities. If you need a RP reason, its to pay for concords protection of your POCO.

2.) The skill is fine as it is. No change needed.

3.) What are you smoking? Smugglers get PAID for moving goods. You have to pay to move goods from your planet surface to some orbital pickup point, and if they call that a tax, so be it. Your not landing on the planet in your iteron, and it is silly to not to expect to pay for transporting goods from the surface to its pickup point. Furthermore, the pickup point is usually in a "safe" location, which means you don't have to worry about some cloaked combat person waiting for you (they have to probe you first).
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-12-09 23:21:12 UTC
princess minervia wrote:
Flame on.

"I'm gonna make some terrible suggestions based on shaky lore interpretation and RL comparison without any regard for game design and balance."
YinKo Toranaga
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-12-10 00:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: YinKo Toranaga
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
princess minervia wrote:
Now that we have had some time to reflect on the PI / POCO changes in this latest update, I would like to suggest a few tweaks.

1. SET THE NPC TAX RATE TO ZERO WHEN A PLAYER CORP SETS UP A POCO. Lets think this one through for a moment - why should Interbus (the NPC) get ANY tax at all once their customs office is destroyed? It makes no sense - it is akin to paying rent to a 0.0 corp for a system they no longer control. It also makes the Hisec POCOs much less profitable for the player corps that have invested the 100M or so necessary destroy an Interbus Customs Office and set up their own. Interbus deserves NOTHING, NADA, ZERO from planets where they have no customs office.

2. APPLY CUSTOMS CODE EXPERTISE TO POCO TAX RATES. I was not a big fan of this skill in the first place, but if you are going to say that training this skill gives you such expert tax knowledge that you can avoid 50% of the customs duty at level 5, then go ahead and apply it to POCOs as well. Player corps can set their tax rates with the sure and certain knowledge that anyone who cares a whit about PI will be training this to level 5 anyway, and it makes the skill consistent.

3. TAX FREE PLANETARY LAUNCHES. Throughout history, there have been those daring individuals who seek to maximize profits by evading customs duties - they are called SMUGGLERS. The planetary complex you build, full of your own people - should not be sending ISK payments out every time you do a planetary launch. Instead, keep the ISK and take the RISK - make the planetary launch tax free from NPC and POCO taxes, but make the pickup of such a container in orbit a suspect-flagging offense, and make the materials in the container appear as loot in a smugglers wreck when destroyed. This motivates both smuggling and tax code enforcement by corps with POCOs --

Flame on.


1.) Absolutely NO. If I can setup my own POCO in highsec, and remove all taxes for important & exporting to it, then there is very little incentive to setup a POCO in lowsec or nullsec. Highsec POCO's are much harder to destroy (no caps, need a wardec, etc), and while highsec planets produce less, many, many POCO activites aren't centered on direct production, but for manufacturing higher tier goods from lower tier goods. The tax helps balance using the little-risk highsec activities from the much higher risk lowsec/nullsec activities. If you need a RP reason, its to pay for concords protection of your POCO.

2.) The skill is fine as it is. No change needed.

3.) What are you smoking? Smugglers get PAID for moving goods. You have to pay to move goods from your planet surface to some orbital pickup point, and if they call that a tax, so be it. Your not landing on the planet in your iteron, and it is silly to not to expect to pay for transporting goods from the surface to its pickup point. Furthermore, the pickup point is usually in a "safe" location, which means you don't have to worry about some cloaked combat person waiting for you (they have to probe you first).


+1
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#5 - 2013-12-10 08:44:56 UTC
princess minervia wrote:

3. TAX FREE PLANETARY LAUNCHES. Throughout history, there have been those daring individuals who seek to maximize profits by evading customs duties - they are called SMUGGLERS. The planetary complex you build, full of your own people - should not be sending ISK payments out every time you do a planetary launch. Instead, keep the ISK and take the RISK - make the planetary launch tax free from NPC and POCO taxes, but make the pickup of such a container in orbit a suspect-flagging offense, and make the materials in the container appear as loot in a smugglers wreck when destroyed. This motivates both smuggling and tax code enforcement by corps with POCOs --

Flame on.


Whats the point of a POCO if everyone using the planet can do free launches.

RocketShips aren't free you know, transporting a bunch of cargo from the ground into orbit is pretty expensive.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-12-10 15:09:05 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
princess minervia wrote:

3. TAX FREE PLANETARY LAUNCHES. Throughout history, there have been those daring individuals who seek to maximize profits by evading customs duties - they are called SMUGGLERS. The planetary complex you build, full of your own people - should not be sending ISK payments out every time you do a planetary launch. Instead, keep the ISK and take the RISK - make the planetary launch tax free from NPC and POCO taxes, but make the pickup of such a container in orbit a suspect-flagging offense, and make the materials in the container appear as loot in a smugglers wreck when destroyed. This motivates both smuggling and tax code enforcement by corps with POCOs --

Flame on.


Whats the point of a POCO if everyone using the planet can do free launches.

RocketShips aren't free you know, transporting a bunch of cargo from the ground into orbit is pretty expensive.



True, but there is no cost difference between lifting 500m3 of Lead or 500m3 of Gold into orbit. I am not saying that there should not be a fixed price paid for every launch, I am merely saying that the cost of the goods in the container should not figure into that equation as this is not a tax transaction.
At 500m3 per launch and one launch per 5 minutes, nobody is going to get too rich doing this - but it does provide an outlet around the extreme taxation POCOs if you want to use it. The counter is that they may bust you running around with the suspect flag in a hauler.
princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-12-10 15:23:39 UTC
3.) What are you smoking? Smugglers get PAID for moving goods. You have to pay to move goods from your planet surface to some orbital pickup point, and if they call that a tax, so be it. Your not landing on the planet in your iteron, and it is silly to not to expect to pay for transporting goods from the surface to its pickup point.


Hauling corps with Freighters get paid for moving goods. Smugglers get paid for moving goods past customs authorities without paying the duty. The 'danger mode' of hauling would be blockade running, running from gate to gate in your cloaky hauler from nullsec to Jita hoping you can get your cargo in.

If it were POSSIBLE to land on your planet in an Iteron in this game, load up your cargo and then try to pull a daring Han Solo escape past the ships camped out in orbit, I would be all for it. As it is, the ONLY possibility for smuggling is the planetary launch system. As I noted above, there is no difference in cost for launching 500m3 of lead vs 500m3 of gold, so planetary launches should be fixed price - no tax affairs. All that means is that it only makes sense to smuggle valuable items - duh.

princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-12-10 16:02:18 UTC
[If I can setup my own POCO in highsec, and remove all taxes for important & exporting to it, then there is very little incentive to setup a POCO in lowsec or nullsec. Highsec POCO's are much harder to destroy (no caps, need a wardec, etc), and while highsec planets produce less, many, many POCO activites aren't centered on direct production, but for manufacturing higher tier goods from lower tier goods.]

Very little incentive to setup a POCO in lowsec or nullsec? What are you smoking? The huge increase in material extraction rates alone justifies that cost - the motive is profit. Just wacking the Interbus customs office and setting up your own at a 0% tax rate can add enough to your profit to pay for itself.

Yes, many of the hisec planets are used only as processing centers - importing raw materials from nullsec/lowsec and exporting higher tier items. You are still collecting taxes from the transactions through your POCO, and there is still no reason for Interbus to get any of it. Concord protection? Really? They protect everything from noobships to control towers for free all over hisec, so I don't see much point in that argument. I can make a better argument that buying and burning starbase charters in a control tower should entitle one to faction navy protection.

As for Hisec POCOs being hard to destroy - are you kidding? I was watching Battleship gangs do them in 20 minutes. So what if you need a wardec in hisec? Any reasonable gang can put a POCO into reinforced in 30 minutes or less.

Zircon Dasher
#9 - 2013-12-10 16:32:53 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The tax helps balance using the little-risk highsec activities from the much higher risk lowsec/nullsec activities. If you need a RP reason, its to pay for concords protection of your POCO.


Would you support adding a base tax (say 15%....maybe reducible to X%) to all highsec activities in order to help balance the risk? Meaning all refining, manufacturing/invention/copying, sales, LP, bounty, etc.

You know... to pay for CONCORD.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2013-12-10 18:10:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The tax helps balance using the little-risk highsec activities from the much higher risk lowsec/nullsec activities. If you need a RP reason, its to pay for concords protection of your POCO.


Would you support adding a base tax (say 15%....maybe reducible to X%) to all highsec activities in order to help balance the risk? Meaning all refining, manufacturing/invention/copying, sales, LP, bounty, etc.

You know... to pay for CONCORD.


Yes! Although, CCP has already attempted to balance some aspects of highsec via limited resources.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#11 - 2013-12-10 18:31:01 UTC
princess minervia wrote:
[If I can setup my own POCO in highsec, and remove all taxes for important & exporting to it, then there is very little incentive to setup a POCO in lowsec or nullsec. Highsec POCO's are much harder to destroy (no caps, need a wardec, etc), and while highsec planets produce less, many, many POCO activites aren't centered on direct production, but for manufacturing higher tier goods from lower tier goods.]

Very little incentive to setup a POCO in lowsec or nullsec? What are you smoking? The huge increase in material extraction rates alone justifies that cost - the motive is profit. Just wacking the Interbus customs office and setting up your own at a 0% tax rate can add enough to your profit to pay for itself.

Yes, many of the hisec planets are used only as processing centers - importing raw materials from nullsec/lowsec and exporting higher tier items. You are still collecting taxes from the transactions through your POCO, and there is still no reason for Interbus to get any of it. Concord protection? Really? They protect everything from noobships to control towers for free all over hisec, so I don't see much point in that argument. I can make a better argument that buying and burning starbase charters in a control tower should entitle one to faction navy protection.

As for Hisec POCOs being hard to destroy - are you kidding? I was watching Battleship gangs do them in 20 minutes. So what if you need a wardec in hisec? Any reasonable gang can put a POCO into reinforced in 30 minutes or less.



I've destroyed plenty of POCO's, and own a few myself. To RF a POCO in 20 minutes, you need to deal out 6.5k dps, which is ~6 Oracles. Given 6 POCO's in a system, that's 2 hours of structure shooting for 6 pilots. In nullsec or lowsec, you can use a single supercap (or dread if you are brave), and RF a POCO in half the time. You don't have to wardec (time & isk savings), and you use less player time.

In highsec, there are more planets than is pragmatic to control. This means anyone can setup their own "tax free" POCO, and have the ability to perfectly produce high tier PI goods from low tier PI goods. Why would this be good for the game?

The only benefit that low/null planets would have is much better extraction rates.... This is good, but it is only one part of the PI industry.

Truthfully, you are only suggesting this because it helps you personally, not because it is good for the game.
princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-12-11 18:58:52 UTC
[In highsec, there are more planets than is pragmatic to control. This means anyone can setup their own "tax free" POCO, and have the ability to perfectly produce high tier PI goods from low tier PI goods. Why would this be good for the game?]

Flip it around. Why would this be bad for the game? You can set up a hisec factory planet with perfect production, but where exactly do you figure on getting the raw materials or trade goods needed as inputs for it? You won't support many perfect factory worlds doing extraction in hisec, so you are either extracting in lowsec/nullsec yourself or buying the inputs from people who do.

[The only benefit that low/null planets would have is much better extraction rates.... This is good, but it is only one part of the PI industry.] Yes, but it is one of the most important and profitable parts. Oil companies own refineries and oil fields. The refinery doesn't make any gas (profits) without the input from the oil field. Why do oil companies explore for oil fields in very inhospitable places? Because that is where the oil is, and that is where they must go to make profits.
Similarly in Eve, your perfect production planet is not making any profits without the inputs from other planets. The raw materials have to come from someplace so the ultimate benefit to moving out to lowsec/nullsec extraction is profit.

[Truthfully, you are only suggesting this because it helps you personally, not because it is good for the game.]
Truthfully, you are entitled to your opinion - that and $1.00 gets you a cup of coffee.

PI is a profit motivated venture. Why do it otherwise? You have already pointed out how a griefer gang of 6 Oracles spending a couple of hours can wipe out $600M ISK worth of Hisec POCOs and render your "perfect production planets" worthless by eliminating import/export without even bothering to put up new POCOs themselves.

My no-tax-for-NPCs proposal changes the ROI calculation on a hisec POCO and make it easier to justify spending $100M putting one up because you aren't splitting income with Interbus. My customs code expertise proposal just dovetails onto this by making the owner of the POCO figure that everyone who cares will train to Level 5 and pay half the published rate - so he sets his tax rates accordingly. People who do not train to Level 5 pay more, and he makes a bit more profit on that.
My tax-free / fixed-price launch proposal merely provides an alternative outlet for those with no customs office at a planet, or a POCO with prohibitive tax rates.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2013-12-13 17:36:58 UTC
princess minervia wrote:
[In highsec, there are more planets than is pragmatic to control. This means anyone can setup their own "tax free" POCO, and have the ability to perfectly produce high tier PI goods from low tier PI goods. Why would this be good for the game?]

Flip it around. Why would this be bad for the game? You can set up a hisec factory planet with perfect production, but where exactly do you figure on getting the raw materials or trade goods needed as inputs for it? You won't support many perfect factory worlds doing extraction in hisec, so you are either extracting in lowsec/nullsec yourself or buying the inputs from people who do.


My experience is that you get about 2x the extraction rate in lowsec and 4x the extraction rate in null/WH space (per head). I don't think this difference in extraction rates alone would offset the cost of moving goods from low/null to highsec. Especially since nullsec generally requires the use of JF's to move goods, which adds considerable logistics cost. Furthermore, some people would simply setup alts to milk highsec worlds dry using straight up extractor worlds, since moving those goods to/from a planet would cease to cost anything. In the end, this would simply be an unnecessary buff to highsec, which is the safest area of the game. Highsec was already recently buffed by the creation of highsec POCOs, and I don't see the need to buff it again (especially in a manner that discourages PI in other sec zones, by reducing the profitability of PI overall).

princess minervia wrote:

PI is a profit motivated venture. Why do it otherwise? You have already pointed out how a griefer gang of 6 Oracles spending a couple of hours can wipe out $600M ISK worth of Hisec POCOs and render your "perfect production planets" worthless by eliminating import/export without even bothering to put up new POCOs themselves.


Have you ever tried to conquer someone elses POCO's? 6 Oracles can put an entire system into RF spending several hours of time, but then to complete the job, they must return at the owner's designated time and spend several more hours to finish the job. If they don't destroy it within 4 hours of it exiting RF, natural shield regen will increase shields to the point you have to endure another RF cycle. A griefer group then must alarm clock to conquer the damn thing, and the POCO's are still fully operational when RF'd. This is on top of wardec fees, the ability to bring in allies, and the shear number of available planets, and I'm certain you are being unrealistic about highsec POCO vulnerability.

princess minervia wrote:

My no-tax-for-NPCs proposal changes the ROI calculation on a hisec POCO and make it easier to justify spending $100M putting one up because you aren't splitting income with Interbus. My customs code expertise proposal just dovetails onto this by making the owner of the POCO figure that everyone who cares will train to Level 5 and pay half the published rate - so he sets his tax rates accordingly. People who do not train to Level 5 pay more, and he makes a bit more profit on that.
My tax-free / fixed-price launch proposal merely provides an alternative outlet for those with no customs office at a planet, or a POCO with prohibitive tax rates.


To be frank, the ROI on highsec POCO's is already reasonable if you are fully utilizing your planets true potential. Why does the ROI need to be improved? A longer ROI makes it a larger risk to operate one, and more risk is exactly what highsec needs!

princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-12-14 20:42:47 UTC
[My experience is that you get about 2x the extraction rate in lowsec and 4x the extraction rate in null/WH space (per head). I don't think this difference in extraction rates alone would offset the cost of moving goods from low/null to highsec. Especially since nullsec generally requires the use of JF's to move goods, which adds considerable logistics cost. ]

My experience is about the same re: extractor heads. As far as using the JF to bring the materials back to Hisec, the cost of doing that in jump fuel is small enough to definitely make it worth it - and is routinely less than the 5% export tax charged in Hisec. Bringing in $450M of Precious metals at a cost of $20M in jump fuel works just fine for me, and that doesn't even figure the savings from access to a jump bridge network. You just can't run a real industrial concern in nullsec without a JF anyway.

[ I'm certain you are being unrealistic about highsec POCO vulnerability]

In think you are being unrealistic in expecting small or midsize hisec industrial corps to have the pvp capabilities to resist a dedicated pvp griefer gang. What does it do to your calculations if that griefer gang is 6 Rattlesnakes instead of 6 Oracles? Are you really going to hire a merc corp for a $1B ISK or so, or put $2B or $3B ISK worth of your own ships on the line to save a $100M ISK POCO with a 3-month ROI?

[To be frank, the ROI on highsec POCO's is already reasonable if you are fully utilizing your planets true potential. Why does the ROI need to be improved? A longer ROI makes it a larger risk to operate one, and more risk is exactly what highsec needs!]

The risk calculation for Hisec PI has gone from "no risk" to "you would have to be smoking crack to think this is a good idea". There is no possible way you can compete extraction-wise with the big alliances / corps based in lowsec / nullsec. If you do manage to get a hisec factory world organized, and somehow manage to feed it enough materials to keep it running, any large corp or griefer gang can come by and eliminate you with a wardec and just smash your POCO at any time.
To be frank, even the changes I am suggesting might not be enough to change the risk/profit calculation to make Hisec PI a good idea again. The only "hisec buff" that the POCO change made was to buff the ability of the large corps to squash the little guys. I'm trying to level the playing field a bit with my suggested changes.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#15 - 2013-12-15 20:34:10 UTC
princess minervia wrote:
[ I'm certain you are being unrealistic about highsec POCO vulnerability]

In think you are being unrealistic in expecting small or midsize hisec industrial corps to have the pvp capabilities to resist a dedicated pvp griefer gang. What does it do to your calculations if that griefer gang is 6 Rattlesnakes instead of 6 Oracles? Are you really going to hire a merc corp for a $1B ISK or so, or put $2B or $3B ISK worth of your own ships on the line to save a $100M ISK POCO with a 3-month ROI?

[To be frank, the ROI on highsec POCO's is already reasonable if you are fully utilizing your planets true potential. Why does the ROI need to be improved? A longer ROI makes it a larger risk to operate one, and more risk is exactly what highsec needs!]

The risk calculation for Hisec PI has gone from "no risk" to "you would have to be smoking crack to think this is a good idea". There is no possible way you can compete extraction-wise with the big alliances / corps based in lowsec / nullsec. If you do manage to get a hisec factory world organized, and somehow manage to feed it enough materials to keep it running, any large corp or griefer gang can come by and eliminate you with a wardec and just smash your POCO at any time.
To be frank, even the changes I am suggesting might not be enough to change the risk/profit calculation to make Hisec PI a good idea again. The only "hisec buff" that the POCO change made was to buff the ability of the large corps to squash the little guys. I'm trying to level the playing field a bit with my suggested changes.


If you're unable or unwilling to assemble the PvP capability to take on six guys, you're doing it wrong. If you have neither the interest nor the ability to defend your own stuff, you should either be looking to find and join a proper alliance that actually will defend its infrastructure... or you should not be setting up that infrastructure in the first place.

Just saying.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-12-16 02:17:39 UTC
princess minervia wrote:
3.) What are you smoking? Smugglers get PAID for moving goods. You have to pay to move goods from your planet surface to some orbital pickup point, and if they call that a tax, so be it. Your not landing on the planet in your iteron, and it is silly to not to expect to pay for transporting goods from the surface to its pickup point.


Hauling corps with Freighters get paid for moving goods. Smugglers get paid for moving goods past customs authorities without paying the duty. The 'danger mode' of hauling would be blockade running, running from gate to gate in your cloaky hauler from nullsec to Jita hoping you can get your cargo in.

If it were POSSIBLE to land on your planet in an Iteron in this game, load up your cargo and then try to pull a daring Han Solo escape past the ships camped out in orbit, I would be all for it. As it is, the ONLY possibility for smuggling is the planetary launch system. As I noted above, there is no difference in cost for launching 500m3 of lead vs 500m3 of gold, so planetary launches should be fixed price - no tax affairs. All that means is that it only makes sense to smuggle valuable items - duh.


Lore-wise

SOMEONE has to get that material launched from teh planet.

you know, the planet now owned by immortal demigods wielding apocalypse-level weaponry with literally negative fucks given about human life?

so, yeah, you are going to be paying NPC residents a shitton of isk to get those goods into space for you, and if they see those goods are valuable, then of course they are gonna charge you more for their risk.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#17 - 2013-12-16 18:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
princess minervia wrote:
My experience is about the same re: extractor heads. As far as using the JF to bring the materials back to Hisec, the cost of doing that in jump fuel is small enough to definitely make it worth it - and is routinely less than the 5% export tax charged in Hisec. Bringing in $450M of Precious metals at a cost of $20M in jump fuel works just fine for me, and that doesn't even figure the savings from access to a jump bridge network. You just can't run a real industrial concern in nullsec without a JF anyway.



So, you transport 450m isk in goods to highsec... You require operating a 6b isk JF, needing 20m in fuel, and certainly encouring inconviences and/or risks when moving it.
Alternatively, you can earn 1/4th this (110m isk) over the same time frame, you don't need a 6b isk JF, and you don't operate in risky space. Paying the 5% tax on your exports reduces this to 105m isk, which has marginal effect on your profit line for these goods. In contrast, your factory worlds which routinely purchase 500m isk in materials to import down to a planet and then export it as 1b in higher-tier commodities are going to be much more heavily impacted by the import/export taxes. It is precisely because of this you wish to eliminate the NPC taxes, so you can have your perfect factory worlds. Why do you deserve tax-free factory worlds in highsec? You are already enjoying low-risk operating costs, as well as concord protection, I don't understand why you should be on equal rewards with null/lowsec.


princess minervia wrote:
[ I'm certain you are being unrealistic about highsec POCO vulnerability]

In think you are being unrealistic in expecting small or midsize hisec industrial corps to have the pvp capabilities to resist a dedicated pvp griefer gang.


Hmm... Let's look at the small or midsized hisec industrial corps. What do they have in common?
They own and operate POS's, most notably with adv & regular mobile labs. These run 60-110m each, not to mention the 3-12m / day operating expense. These corps regularly deal with "griefers" (You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means) that attack them, usually for the profit involved in blowing up the POS and taking the labs. They put just as much up front (if not more), they have about the same ROI, and they cope with the threats that come at them (or die, hohoho). While POCO defense is different than POS defense, each has their own major benefits over the other. Again, I am positive you are being unrealistic about highsec POco vulnerability.

princess minervia wrote:
What does it do to your calculations if that griefer gang is 6 Rattlesnakes instead of 6 Oracles? Are you really going to hire a merc corp for a $1B ISK or so, or put $2B or $3B ISK worth of your own ships on the line to save a $100M ISK POCO with a 3-month ROI?


1.) Oracles are used because they do decent damage (800-1,000 dps) without the need to reload ammo.

2.) Rattlers are tanky, but do less dps than an oracle unless fit with missiles. If you are going straight dps, there are many ships that will out-perform Rattlers (like the Talos). If you want dps & PvP ability, there are also many ships that outperfrom Rattlers (although they have their niche too).

3.) You don't need to put 2-3B isk on the line to take on a 6-man gang. You need to play smarter, not bigger.

princess minervia wrote:
[To be frank, the ROI on highsec POCO's is already reasonable if you are fully utilizing your planets true potential. Why does the ROI need to be improved? A longer ROI makes it a larger risk to operate one, and more risk is exactly what highsec needs!]

The risk calculation for Hisec PI has gone from "no risk" to "you would have to be smoking crack to think this is a good idea". There is no possible way you can compete extraction-wise with the big alliances / corps based in lowsec / nullsec. If you do manage to get a hisec factory world organized, and somehow manage to feed it enough materials to keep it running, any large corp or griefer gang can come by and eliminate you with a wardec and just smash your POCO at any time.
To be frank, even the changes I am suggesting might not be enough to change the risk/profit calculation to make Hisec PI a good idea again. The only "hisec buff" that the POCO change made was to buff the ability of the large corps to squash the little guys. I'm trying to level the playing field a bit with my suggested changes.


1.) This is, and has always been risk when operating in highsec. It is still generally low risk though.

2.) "No way you can compete extraction wise?" My dear friend, POCO resources are worse than asteroid resources. You keep mining the planet and you keep getting resources. The difference between highsec and lowsec/nullsec is you gain more resources when operating in riskier environments. We call this concept "risk vs reward", and I fully support upholding this paradigm.

3.) QQ -- Some boogy man might attack your POCO for zero profit, just to **** you off. When this happens, offer to sell it to him to recoup your costs. It save them hours of shooting structures, and is generally win-win (I've dealt with buying & selling POCo's many times). Then you move your operation somewhere else. This is a dog-eats-dog world, and you submit/lose until you are strong enough to win.

4.) Why would the big badass boogyman no-one else can defeat be interested in your lame-ass POCOs? Hint, there is very little profit in blowing up a POCO, and shooting them for ***** and giggles gets very old very fast. Pragmatically, the only time your POCO's get attacked is if you attract attention to them somehow! Then you rightfully need to deal with the fallout.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#18 - 2014-01-21 03:22:59 UTC
No.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#19 - 2014-01-23 11:26:48 UTC
If I stasis a POCO, it should slow it down so that it falls back into the atmosphere, no?
Let's bash POCOs with stasises! How awesome would that be???

Oh and for 1 & 2 : No. It feels bad.
However, free planetary launches... Why not! This cool feature is not used enough. Big smile Even within its niche.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Sentinel zx
#20 - 2014-03-08 20:01:39 UTC
i like the Idea to Transport your goods by bypassing the POCO but its should be risky to do this no suspect flack or something else, no totally destruction of your Command center would be it

but how

Combination of Orbital bombardment and Dust Bunnies

for this we leave the current Commandcenter how it is

and create T2 Version with landing deck for Industrialships and with a Fitting able Option like eve ships for Attack and Defense

by sending Dusties on Planet would generate a Contract by Dust

and they will Sabotage or help to Destroy the Commandcenter

ok, here are some details

Orbital bombardment would not complete Destroy CC but it will Destroy the Grounddefense making for Dusties easier to move forward

forward?? yes the CC would have 3-5 Defense lines and it is up to Defender what he put in there Twisted

he also can create a Contract for defense by Dust or he could use NPC Drones instead (PVE- Content for Dust)

be creative this is great opportunity to increase the EVE-Dust link
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