Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'm going to update the graph for a Caracal, so stay tuned. If you're willing to provide me with some fits for the aforementioned target ships, I'll gladly revise the stats. I just need a short list of anything that would affect speed and signature. Feel free to suggest some alternatives (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar and even Caldari). I don't fly most of those ships, so any input is appreciated. Thanks.

Np. Right now I'm just focusing on a RHML » HML comparisons as the consensus seems to be that HAMs are ok for the moment.

Ahahahaha. I kinda miss that logic, I was around for it and it was rather sad, although the general attitude towards missiles persists. I wonder where it went. At least we will always have. Caldari are good at PvE "independent of reality", Minmatar=small gang and solo, Amarr=fleet, and gallente is jack of all trades.
But yeah his post if meant sarcastically could be interpreted to mean the opposite. No offense intended lol. Non-native aside I am quite capable of reading.

Those people are wrong - HAMs need 10-20% better damage application to be ok.

Caracal RHML-HAM-HML Comparison
Existing RHMLs, existing HAMLs (no buff) and the new proposed HMLs (slight buff).

I understand your caution Arthur. The reason I don't share your sentiment though, is the fact I was around when the "horrible" HML one shotted every solar-system in EvE.
Back in those days they had fabulous stats, and these silly DPS discussions were not as dominant. IT was much more about realistic scenarios "engagement profiles". Which to be honest I find to be completely lacking in all this anti-missile shenanigans. At the peak of HML dominance, you would only see them on the Drake and the Tengu. Only one of them truly overpowered with them. The drake was like a small moon, durable and chucked full of stats but with 0 control over a fight. They really only functioned stripped of tank (where they were balanced to ******). Or like before floating in space like an army of jellyfish and essentially just a popular fleet doctrine which was seeing more counters by the day.
Of-course many things were different back then, caracals had a kinetic bonus, couldn't fit anything, a general issue for missile ships. The tengu really made children weep in their sleep, and could've been adjusted with hull changes.

I guess the moral of the story is that people have no imagination, if HML did awesome damage like before. You would still run into the same problems as before. A abundance of kineticbonuses. Flight time creating added opportunity to evade dps. A lack of tracking enhancing modules. And a general acceptance of EFT war completely ignoring turret ships tend to favor tracking or double dip in fire rate+damage and generally better base hull attributes. Whereas as I've stated (all of this) before. Missiles are stuck with kinetic+range bonus. Rigs for projection, mind you that rigs are generally the gap filler and are a VERY substandard primary choice for increasing statistics. You need energy, target range or a little passive resist to fill a thermal hole 'just in case'. Not ohh lets try a build where I use rig slots for dps..... Even with good work on these issues it needs to come out of a vacuum more. If I was a little more math savvy or could use EFT atm I wouldn't mind making a REAL comparison between turrets and missiles. Best ammo for shooting frigs+web.

I'd probably start with a realistic fit for missiles, and a "what if we could fit like gunnery ships" fit. Imaginary tracking+range mods,+tracking/damage bonuses on hulls. And actually add some gunnery standard pvp fits and their tracking characteristics.

I was talking about the modified HML of Arthur and afraid meant that I didn't check the numbers yet. Though on a second look they show almost full dps on MWDing Loki. As I said, the Loki have a close to average speed and signature (I computed average T1 cruiser speed and signature : 127m ; 275m/s). When MWDing, missile dps is reduced most of the time (exception is 1600mm plate which slow down the cruiser to less than 5 times bonus he need to counter the signature increase), hence all cruisers above average overall (sig/speed might be a good ratio to evaluate missile vulnerability) will take, like this Loki, close to full HM dps even without rigs.

I repeat, this is for the modified HML he provided numbers for.

Hey, Bouh, if you've got all these great ideas about what Arthur has been doing wrong that only you know how to do right why not do it your own ******* self instead of being a whiny little ****?
Just a thought.....

Do you have any idea about what it takes to do this job ?

It's a great job he is doing, but not perfect. You are already enough to congratulate him so I make sure someone point out the flaws.

Because as great as its work can be, I don't like when people use math to fool others, and these numbers, because of the flaws I pointed out, can make people believe wrong things.

Really? Try to hit the same targets with arties. At extreme ranges it can do damage, but on most situatiosn it will do even less damage than missiles agaisnt a target ABing.


Missiles should need webs and target painters to deny that.

ITs simple logic. IF the hsotile spends 3-4 modules specifically to avoid missile damage. You shoudl use at LEAST, on very mINIMUM 2 mods to specifically counter that.


Game balance is not about being fun to YOU only. Trade offs are relevant. You want to do damage? web the damm target.