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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3181 - 2013-12-12 13:04:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
So essentially what you're proposing is a pretty huge reduction in the effectiveness of ABs at speed-tanking HAMs. An Enyo doesn't last long with 118 DPS applied to its lowest resists. So, yeah, I think you've got this the wrong way round. HMs before HAMs.

What's the comparison with pulse lasers, blasters and drones?
AB frigate with scram+web orbiting a cruiser (even with scram+web) will take no damage from the turrets ; and you can manually pilot if you really need it (case of electron blasters or AC on tracking bonused AB cruiser). The cruiser will have a window to shoot at the frigate until she set the orbit, but if the frigate survives this, it's done.

Light drones will do their best (which is not always full dps), but their best is 100dps on unbonused hull ; 220 for hobs2 on drone ship with 2 DDAs. But drones compare more to RLML IMO.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3182 - 2013-12-12 13:10:57 UTC
Here's a revised HML proposal for consideration.
Heavy Missile Fix

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#3183 - 2013-12-12 13:15:16 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:
So essentially what you're proposing is a pretty huge reduction in the effectiveness of ABs at speed-tanking HAMs. An Enyo doesn't last long with 118 DPS applied to its lowest resists. So, yeah, I think you've got this the wrong way round. HMs before HAMs.

What's the comparison with pulse lasers, blasters and drones?


The comparison with turrets is very difficult because it's entirely dependent on transversal. For example, with a webbed AB Enyo orbiting a stationary ion Thorax, the Thorax does 12 DPS at 2 km, 40 DPS at 3 km and 120 DPS at 6 km. Given its speed advantage inside scram range, the Enyo can get into a close orbit and receive almost no damage, but fancy piloting by the Thorax can mitigate this.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3184 - 2013-12-12 13:42:53 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Here's a revised HML proposal for consideration.
Heavy Missile Fix


That looks about perfect really +1
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3185 - 2013-12-12 14:18:01 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Here's a revised HML proposal for consideration.
Heavy Missile Fix
Again, the problem with your numbers is that they only show worse case scenarios here (the fastest and smallest ships with prop mod running). I'm afraid your HM will apply full damage to evrything else without efforts...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3186 - 2013-12-12 14:26:12 UTC
Fact, HEavy missiles and hams should NOT apply full damage to an AB cruiser. And should not do even a reasonable ammount of damage against a minmatar (smaller) cruisers.. with nanos... And shoudl do VERY LITTLE damage agaisnt that same cruiser using faction AB and maxed gang links.

Peopel take effort on their ships. You cannot demand that your simple drake fitting plain missile launchers simply ignore these effort placed on their ships.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3187 - 2013-12-12 15:12:23 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Fact, HEavy missiles and hams should NOT apply full damage to an AB cruiser. And should not do even a reasonable ammount of damage against a minmatar (smaller) cruisers.. with nanos... And shoudl do VERY LITTLE damage agaisnt that same cruiser using faction AB and maxed gang links.



Yeah, that is why they are garbage.....because they don't. So on a missile ship you are ruling out half of the sub-cap classes as targets that you have a change to do damage to.

Only missiles have this issue.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3188 - 2013-12-12 15:30:58 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Fact, HEavy missiles and hams should NOT apply full damage to an AB cruiser. And should not do even a reasonable ammount of damage against a minmatar (smaller) cruisers.. with nanos... And shoudl do VERY LITTLE damage agaisnt that same cruiser using faction AB and maxed gang links.

Peopel take effort on their ships. You cannot demand that your simple drake fitting plain missile launchers simply ignore these effort placed on their ships.


why should your 10mil isk cruiser be better than mine?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3189 - 2013-12-12 15:35:51 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
why should your 10mil isk cruiser be better than mine?
Doh ! It's not a matter of being better... It's a matter of minmatar ship having a small sig and high speed to allow them to speed tank.

What is the interest of speed tanking if nothing can speedtank missiles ?

Or why should missiles don't have a worse case scenario ?
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3190 - 2013-12-12 15:43:15 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Fact, HEavy missiles and hams should NOT apply full damage to an AB cruiser. And should not do even a reasonable ammount of damage against a minmatar (smaller) cruisers.. with nanos... And shoudl do VERY LITTLE damage agaisnt that same cruiser using faction AB and maxed gang links.

Peopel take effort on their ships. You cannot demand that your simple drake fitting plain missile launchers simply ignore these effort placed on their ships.

Basically you are right but what options are available for simple missile pilots - dual web / web & TP Drake with only one LSE & Invuln - still being slow, with huge sig and crappy damage?
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3191 - 2013-12-12 15:55:52 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Fact, HEavy missiles and hams should NOT apply full damage to an AB cruiser. And should not do even a reasonable ammount of damage against a minmatar (smaller) cruisers.. with nanos... And shoudl do VERY LITTLE damage agaisnt that same cruiser using faction AB and maxed gang links.

Peopel take effort on their ships. You cannot demand that your simple drake fitting plain missile launchers simply ignore these effort placed on their ships.


why should your 10mil isk cruiser be better than mine?


If you look at the proposal you'll see that he has 100million isk worth of rigs on his Tengu and still only gets full dps against the biggest targets, before the rigs he's doing less than half of his dps against nearly everything but the MWD Loki. Fact is if someone is going to spend that kind of ISk on rigs they should get the extra firepower, but that's not going to happen on drakes or caracals because nobody is going to spend that kind of isk on a pvp cruiser, so all things considered I think it's pretty reasonable. Especially when you consider how low HML dps is already
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3192 - 2013-12-12 16:18:54 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
If you look at the proposal you'll see that he has 100million isk worth of rigs on his Tengu and still only gets full dps against the biggest targets, before the rigs he's doing less than half of his dps against nearly everything but the MWD Loki. Fact is if someone is going to spend that kind of ISk on rigs they should get the extra firepower, but that's not going to happen on drakes or caracals because nobody is going to spend that kind of isk on a pvp cruiser, so all things considered I think it's pretty reasonable. Especially when you consider how low HML dps is already
This become comical when you realize that a twin 1600mm plate loki have the signature and speed of a Vexor...

Armor Loki with 3 trimarks have 260m/s base speed and 130m sig radius. That is the average for cruisers. In fact, the numbers on this Loki are what you would get on average.

And there is no numbers on ships without prop mod (case of tackled ships).

So that's what I feared in fact : yet again selected numbers, and the modified version of Arthur would do near 100% to half the cruisers in game even when MWDing ; which mean half the cruisers in game won't have any way to counter missiles.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3193 - 2013-12-12 16:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
If you look at the proposal you'll see that he has 100million isk worth of rigs on his Tengu and still only gets full dps against the biggest targets, before the rigs he's doing less than half of his dps against nearly everything but the MWD Loki. Fact is if someone is going to spend that kind of ISk on rigs they should get the extra firepower, but that's not going to happen on drakes or caracals because nobody is going to spend that kind of isk on a pvp cruiser, so all things considered I think it's pretty reasonable. Especially when you consider how low HML dps is already
This become comical when you realize that a twin 1600mm plate loki have the signature and speed of a Vexor...

Armor Loki with 3 trimarks have 260m/s base speed and 130m sig radius. That is the average for cruisers. In fact, the numbers on this Loki are what you would get on average.

And there is no numbers on ships without prop mod (case of tackled ships).

So that's what I feared in fact : yet again selected numbers, and the modified version of Arthur would do near 100% to half the cruisers in game even when MWDing ; which mean half the cruisers in game won't have any way to counter missiles.


Whats comical is you think your Vexor should do twice as much dps against my Caracal to begin with, and that I should only be able to apply about half of my damage so you end up doing about 3-4 times more damage than me, whilst having a better tank more tackle and still be lethal to frigates... either HML needs buffed or every other weapon needs to be brought down to its level of performance or it's not balanced
Notorious Fellon
#3194 - 2013-12-12 17:02:26 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
[quote=Fourteen Maken]...blah...blah...


Whats comical is you think your Vexor should do twice as much dps against my Caracal to begin with, and that I should only be able to apply about half of my damage so you end up doing about 3-4 times more damage than me, whilst having a better tank more tackle and still be lethal to frigates... either HML needs buffed or every other weapon needs to be brought down to its level of performance or it's not balanced



I find this also comical. I would have assumed we could all agree that cruisers with medium weapons should all be able to apply *similar* damage to each other and have similar range of tank/speed/damage trade-offs.

Seems that is not the case in some people's eyes.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#3195 - 2013-12-12 17:19:19 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
[quote=Fourteen Maken]...blah...blah...


Whats comical is you think your Vexor should do twice as much dps against my Caracal to begin with, and that I should only be able to apply about half of my damage so you end up doing about 3-4 times more damage than me, whilst having a better tank more tackle and still be lethal to frigates... either HML needs buffed or every other weapon needs to be brought down to its level of performance or it's not balanced



I find this also comical. I would have assumed we could all agree that cruisers with medium weapons should all be able to apply *similar* damage to each other and have similar range of tank/speed/damage trade-offs.

Seems that is not the case in some people's eyes.


You make a fine labyrinth of contradiction, can't decipher what you are trying to say. You agree, you don't? "I would have assumed..we could all agree... should all be able to apply.... seems that is not the case in some people's eyes.

Sorry, genuinely trying to figure out wether you are trying to be sarcastic.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3196 - 2013-12-12 17:32:47 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Whats comical is you think your Vexor should do twice as much dps against my Caracal to begin with, and that I should only be able to apply about half of my damage so you end up doing about 3-4 times more damage than me, whilst having a better tank more tackle and still be lethal to frigates... either HML needs buffed or every other weapon needs to be brought down to its level of performance or it's not balanced
HML are a long range weapon. Vexor with blasters and drones are a point blanc range weapon.

Do you see the difference ?

Compare what is comparable, like short range weapons with short range weapons, and stop trying to compete with blasters at point blanc range with missiles, that would be a proof of intelligence, because I'm really starting to lose hope.
Notorious Fellon
#3197 - 2013-12-12 17:34:06 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
[quote=Fourteen Maken]...blah...blah...


Whats comical is you think your Vexor should do twice as much dps against my Caracal to begin with, and that I should only be able to apply about half of my damage so you end up doing about 3-4 times more damage than me, whilst having a better tank more tackle and still be lethal to frigates... either HML needs buffed or every other weapon needs to be brought down to its level of performance or it's not balanced



I find this also comical. I would have assumed we could all agree that cruisers with medium weapons should all be able to apply *similar* damage to each other and have similar range of tank/speed/damage trade-offs.

Seems that is not the case in some people's eyes.


You make a fine labyrinth of contradiction, can't decipher what you are trying to say. You agree, you don't? "I would have assumed..we could all agree... should all be able to apply.... seems that is not the case in some people's eyes.

Sorry, genuinely trying to figure out wether you are trying to be sarcastic.


Cruisers with medium weapons should apply similar damage to enemies of equal size, regardless of weapon type.

The technique used to apply the damage should be different. Turrets deal with tracking, Missiles deal with countering target speed and sig.

The notion that a Vexor should do 2X damage over a Caracal is beyond silly. They should apply similar damage given similar pilot skill and use. They should have similar tank, speed, and other trade-offs as well. Missiles need to be viable.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3198 - 2013-12-12 17:34:11 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Whats comical is you think your Vexor should do twice as much dps against my Caracal to begin with, and that I should only be able to apply about half of my damage so you end up doing about 3-4 times more damage than me, whilst having a better tank more tackle and still be lethal to frigates... either HML needs buffed or every other weapon needs to be brought down to its level of performance or it's not balanced
HML are a long range weapon. Vexor with blasters and drones are a point blanc range weapon.

Do you see the difference ?

Compare what is comparable, like short range weapons with short range weapons, and stop trying to compete with blasters at point blanc range with missiles, that would be a proof of intelligence, because I'm really starting to lose hope.


Drones have a 60km control range, and you can put railguns on your vexor if you want to compare apples with apples
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3199 - 2013-12-12 17:40:22 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:

You make a fine labyrinth of contradiction, can't decipher what you are trying to say. You agree, you don't? "I would have assumed..we could all agree... should all be able to apply.... seems that is not the case in some people's eyes.

Sorry, genuinely trying to figure out wether you are trying to be sarcastic.

Are you a non-native English speaker by any chance? His post seems perfectly straight-forward to me, he's saying that missiles and turrets should have stats in a comparable range with nothing massively outclassing the other, but that "some people" (Bouh and 40sec for example) are opposed to this on a design basis.

It's like the old Winmatar issues before tiericide. "You don't get it, Minmatar are SUPPOSED to be super fast and agile, that's their specialty. Caldari ships specialize at being complete ****, that's why they're so efficient at being worthless"

So long as the devs have this ingrained belief that missiles must be **** when engaging smaller targets, no amount of graphs showing turret and drone superiority is going to make them change that.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3200 - 2013-12-12 17:40:46 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Drones have a 60km control range, and you can put railguns on your vexor if you want to compare apples with apples
Yeah, and how many years will your drones take to reach your target ? Ogres are not as fast as missiles you know, and I thought missile users would understand this parameter...