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Holy hell, the Tornado is a gankers dream.

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Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#141 - 2011-11-22 05:30:42 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
The second you make a RL comparison, the game is over. And the longer you go on with the argument, you end up grasping at nothing.


Why?

Because your real life posessions have value? To whom?

Ranger 1 wrote:
The difference is all of the things you describe are real, and are my property.

The virtual items in EVE are not yours, you do not at any time own them, they are not your property.

You'll find that information cleverly hidden in the publicly available EULA, the one we all agreed to when we chose to play this GAME.


Ah the last resort of the desperate. Hide behind the EULA to justify your actions.

You seem to be pretty touchy about *your* property.

It's almost as if you imply that you accept that those things are yours. Are they? Maybe in your case specifically they are, but how many of the suicide ganker types who "farm tears" are making payments for their car or other possessions via credit card or loan? Look at the contract terms (same as an EULA, but real). Those items are not yours if they are financed by someone else, and there is a whole industry in repossession that will prove that to you if you decide to stop paying.

The core of it has already been hit on once. Time and effort are a big part of all this stuff which the EULA supposedly claims we do not own.
Logging in daily or weekly, depending on your skill in training is a part of real life. You pay for electricity, you pay to keep your computer up to date, and you pay for the service provided by CCP known as Eve. You spend two months training skills and running missions or whatever in order to obtain use of a specific set of code lines in the program labeled "hulk". You've paid $20 or so in sub fees and put effort (casual or not) into obtaining access to that program code.
And when someone comes through who has trained for a few weeks at best, paid no money, and put in a significant less amount of time and blocks your access to that code, you expect the entire human race to react in a manner that *you* deem appropriate.

Apparently you, the perfect human being, are the ultimate judge on what constitutes value to other human beings, and therefore are the final word on data/information/bits/pixels.

Praises to thee, o god, for blessing us with your perfect wisdom.

Profit favors the prepared
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#142 - 2011-11-22 05:39:53 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
The second you make a RL comparison, the game is over. And the longer you go on with the argument, you end up grasping at nothing.


Why?

Because your real life posessions have value? To whom?

Ranger 1 wrote:
The difference is all of the things you describe are real, and are my property.

The virtual items in EVE are not yours, you do not at any time own them, they are not your property.

You'll find that information cleverly hidden in the publicly available EULA, the one we all agreed to when we chose to play this GAME.


Ah the last resort of the desperate. Hide behind the EULA to justify your actions.

You seem to be pretty touchy about *your* property.

It's almost as if you imply that you accept that those things are yours. Are they? Maybe in your case specifically they are, but how many of the suicide ganker types who "farm tears" are making payments for their car or other possessions via credit card or loan? Look at the contract terms (same as an EULA, but real). Those items are not yours if they are financed by someone else, and there is a whole industry in repossession that will prove that to you if you decide to stop paying.

The core of it has already been hit on once. Time and effort are a big part of all this stuff which the EULA supposedly claims we do not own.
Logging in daily or weekly, depending on your skill in training is a part of real life. You pay for electricity, you pay to keep your computer up to date, and you pay for the service provided by CCP known as Eve. You spend two months training skills and running missions or whatever in order to obtain use of a specific set of code lines in the program labeled "hulk". You've paid $20 or so in sub fees and put effort (casual or not) into obtaining access to that program code.
And when someone comes through who has trained for a few weeks at best, paid no money, and put in a significant less amount of time and blocks your access to that code, you expect the entire human race to react in a manner that *you* deem appropriate.

Apparently you, the perfect human being, are the ultimate judge on what constitutes value to other human beings, and therefore are the final word on data/information/bits/pixels.

Praises to thee, o god, for blessing us with your perfect wisdom.


You're welcome. Blink

I suppose I really should point out that you (and every other player of the game) also agreed that everything you "accrue" while playing EVE has no value what so ever, but if you wish to exalt me as your personal god of common sense and maturity who am I to dissuade you.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#143 - 2011-11-22 05:45:25 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

The difference is all of the things you describe are real, and are my property.

The virtual items in EVE are not yours, you do not at any time own them, they are not your property.

You'll find that information cleverly hidden in the publicly available EULA, the one we all agreed to when we chose to play this GAME.


Idea of ownership .. how cute.


Big smile

I take it you disagree. Excellent, give me your computer.


sure thing... if you dont mind waiting few bilions years.


Apparently I only have to wait until next year for all things to devolve into entropy. I'll collect the computer then.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2011-11-22 05:49:07 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

The difference is all of the things you describe are real, and are my property.

The virtual items in EVE are not yours, you do not at any time own them, they are not your property.

You'll find that information cleverly hidden in the publicly available EULA, the one we all agreed to when we chose to play this GAME.


Idea of ownership .. how cute.


Big smile

I take it you disagree. Excellent, give me your computer.


sure thing... if you dont mind waiting few bilions years.


Apparently I only have to wait until next year for all things to devolve into entropy. I'll collect the computer then.


Deal, if that event comes.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#145 - 2011-11-22 05:49:52 UTC
It doesn't matter what you think about the effort involved in acquiring your space pixels. According to all applicable contract law, and the way it ties into IP management for videogame content, you have no legal claim to your in-game possessions. No court will order CCP to derp up a Hulk for you out of thin air just because you spent ninety hours of your valuable time acquiring one.

EVE is a videogame; a form of digital entertainment. You pay for the experience of EVE online, not the virtual items you accumulate within it.

When you go to watch a movie, you pay your twelve bucks and enjoy the two-hour experience. Now, I don't know, you might be of completely unsound mind, and you might form a deep emotional bond with one of the characters in that movie. You might spend tens of hours reading about that character, printing out pictures, and dabbling with erotica fanfiction. You might even improvise a little candlelit shrine in your basement. Should you then be allowed to sue the filmmakers if they decide to kill off this character in the sequel?

Does this clarify things for you?

No?

Deal with it.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Aggressive Nutmeg
#146 - 2011-11-22 05:56:25 UTC
These repetitive threads about 'carebears', 'griefbears', 'suicide ganking' and 'collecting tears' are getting really ******* boring. Evil

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2011-11-22 06:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:
These repetitive threads about 'carebears', 'griefbears', 'suicide ganking' and 'collecting tears' are getting really ******* boring. Evil


True. Everything has been said, every argument has been dissolved by other and that has been dissolved by another one in the ideological debate.

Everyone is correct or not. Since truth doesn't really exist on the field called emotions or/and ideas. Only external reality exist however we are unable to experience it.

And this thread was originally about few weeks maybe even month old news about tornado being perfect match for suicide ganking.

It doesnt matter, suicider-gankers will kill you in anything if they want to. You undock you take the risk of being destroyed thats how it is. *Shrug*-it off and move on.

eidt. PS. Fun part is that suicide-gankers are actually able to form some kind of fleet/ mean social interraction in order to proceed with some "plan".

Yet solo miners are solo calling them sociopaths.

yet another edit.
I am indeed carebear, but i know quite a few good PvP pilots and i know i could not match them on battle field even tho i got higher knowledge about different situations in regards of PvP, however only theoretical one. It works for them i am just clumsy and cant reproduce their effectivness.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#148 - 2011-11-22 06:11:42 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I am convinced it is impossible for me to be wrong about anything that might cause me to have to change the way I play a game in order to accommodate for the difference between myself and other human beings.

If you don't see things my way, you are obviously wrong


Yes, much clearer.

Profit favors the prepared
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#149 - 2011-11-22 06:13:44 UTC
I shoot people in a game because I'm a murderer in real life


There, I said it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2011-11-22 06:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Malcanis wrote:
I shoot people in a game because I'm a murderer in real life


There, I said it.


Call the Police...

Oversimplification is not really good approach.


Let get back on trails...

Forget Tornado

jump up for 500dps+ dessies for 2mil .. Cool
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#151 - 2011-11-22 06:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Evei Shard wrote:
I am not smart enough to formulate a rational argument, and will therefore forge a statement by my debate opponent in the form of an ad hominem attack as a last resort to save face.

That is unfortunate.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2011-11-22 06:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
I am not smart enough to formulate a rational argument, and will therefore forge a statement by my debate opponent in the form of an ad hominem attack as a last resort to save face.

That is unfortunate.


And doing the same makes you better/smarter ? how ?

eidt. you are still blocked, sometimes i just look what is going on. You got your bright moments time to time.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#153 - 2011-11-22 06:23:25 UTC
Didn't you say you blocked my posts? Why the sudden change of heart?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2011-11-22 06:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Didn't you say you blocked my posts? Why the sudden change of heart?


Anyway as i wrote above this discussion has been done. And both parties sticks to their vision of what is what. I dont care either way.


This thread was about awesome Tornado, dont know who started "this" discussion again.

Its like if Nado was not implemented that suicide gankenrs will start to care about anything except their laughs and time to time profit even they have to make ISK.

And again over-buffed destroyers gonna be actually the most used spaceships for suicide-ganking i guess. Unless Freighter ofc.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#155 - 2011-11-22 06:29:19 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Sounds to me like the OP is arguing against basic human nature.
(from:Thread

According to that particular comment, you believe that people who play the game are justified in their actions and attitudes because it's "human nature".

So boasting, arrogance, deceit, ganking and other similar things are sanctioned "human nature" and therefore acceptable, however self preservation, whether in RL or unintentionally in a fictional game, is not "human nature"?

Why are you so scared to consider that maybe you are wrong?

Humans, except Ranger 1, are not perfect. There are no absolutes. Your supposition that carebears take things to seriously is an arrogant assumption that all humans should conform to the psychological makeup and patterns produced by your brain, and that humans in general can be categorized by absolutes.

Profit favors the prepared
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2011-11-22 06:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Bought ship fitted it.

Get ganked lost 260mil

*shrug*

says thanks to local and moving on.

Actually i lost it when i undocked somewhat PvP 1400mm plated and rigged Abaddon in Amarr system .. -10 with Amarr

And got bumped again and again so i couldnt warp off/allign and couldnt dock/out of range Oops

Some stupid amarr navy marchal or what dealt 216k dmg ..
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#157 - 2011-11-22 06:35:19 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

And again over-buffed destroyers gonna be actually the most used spaceships for suicide-ganking i guess. Unless Freighter ofc.


Destroyers will be useful for something at least, and dirt cheap compared to the T3's.

A lot of people make the Tornado out to be the second or third ship that a newbie hops into. I think the new BC's will be used for ganking in a lot of situations, but for the most part only by well financed groups who can afford to build and throw them away.

Depending on how far the hybrid change goes, the Catalyst could be the ship of choice for people that aren't skilled for a T3 yet.

and yeah, I fell into the off topic trap, but it's a subject that I've found fascinating since the first time I read a thread on it a while back.

Profit favors the prepared
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#158 - 2011-11-22 06:45:30 UTC

Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of the Dessie buff too....

The main problem with Dessie ganking is that it requires a group for the high-EHP targets. (and bigger ships hold up against gate guns longer....)

1 Tempest (or Tornado) = 1 or 2 dead Hulks - 90% of the time, no fuss, no wait, no coordination required.

Don't get me wrong, great things can be done in groups - but arranging a group is non-trivial thing, especially when you are in an out-of-the-way timezone like I am. And lets face it - sometimes I just want to log it, go out there, stick a locator agent on a miner I've killed before, track them down, and instapop them without having to fleet up.

If ganking required a group to succeed, far fewer people would participate - and that would be terrible for the game.

Solo PVP will not be truly dead - as long as we can repeatedly crush Hulks with a single T1 hull. MMMM Solo PVP. Big smile

The main problem with dessie ganking stems from a flaw in the 'sec status penalty' system.
(And YES - obviously none of this applies if you are using -10 alts....)

However, if 5 pilots gank a target, ALL five get a steep 'ship kill' penalty.

CCP should change this - so only the pilot that got the KM gets the the 'large ship kill' penalty. The other gankers are only guilty of 'aggression', and should only be penalized as such. (This would encourage non-outlaw Gankers to operate in dessie groups as well as the -10 outlaws.)

If the gang prefers to preserve its sec-status, it is FAR more efficient for ganking to be a solo or tandem activity, as the cumulative sec-penalties are far less per kill, if a bit more expensive in terms of ISK.

The other thing I would change is eliminate the silly '15 minute' timer system for gaining sec status. Each aggressive act gets a penalty, so it should work the same way while 'repairing' your sec status. Each NPC gives a sec-status bonus, just as each one gives a bounty.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#159 - 2011-11-22 06:46:36 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
(from:Thread

According to that particular comment, you believe that people who play the game are justified in their actions and attitudes because it's "human nature".

No, I never stated that. I simply made an allusion to humanity's predatory tendencies.

Evei Shard wrote:
So boasting, arrogance, deceit, ganking and other similar things are sanctioned "human nature" and therefore acceptable, however self preservation, whether in RL or unintentionally in a fictional game, is not "human nature"?

Boasting, arrogance, deceit, violence, and murder, are all indeed aspects of human nature. Together, they make up what is known as "survival instinct." With the development of abstract thought, the tendency toward the creation of "laws" is also an aspect of human nature, and a part of survival instinct. I do not believe that just because we have formed societies, written laws, and accepted some form of a "social" contract, that people have shed the more "sociopathic" aspects of their nature. There is plenty of empirical evidence that supports my claim. One must only take a look at the newspaper to judge the validity of my argument.

Evei Shard wrote:
Why are you so scared to consider that maybe you are wrong?

I always consider whether or not I am wrong. This consideration results in a drive to fact-check my claims. For example, I have recently read the entirety of EVE's EULA. Have you?

Evei Shard wrote:
Humans, except Ranger 1, are not perfect. There are no absolutes. Your supposition that carebears take things to seriously is an arrogant assumption that all humans should conform to the psychological makeup and patterns produced by your brain, and that humans in general can be categorized by absolutes.

I have not made a supposition. However, I did make the observation that no matter how seriously someone takes their space pixels, they have no legal ground to stake a claim to their in-game holdings as their own property.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2011-11-22 07:03:38 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

And again over-buffed destroyers gonna be actually the most used spaceships for suicide-ganking i guess. Unless Freighter ofc.


Destroyers will be useful for something at least, and dirt cheap compared to the T3's.

A lot of people make the Tornado out to be the second or third ship that a newbie hops into. I think the new BC's will be used for ganking in a lot of situations, but for the most part only by well financed groups who can afford to build and throw them away.

Depending on how far the hybrid change goes, the Catalyst could be the ship of choice for people that aren't skilled for a T3 yet.

and yeah, I fell into the off topic trap, but it's a subject that I've found fascinating since the first time I read a thread on it a while back.


well i hope you meant tier III as they are not really that expensive... altho its definitely not an rookie friendly ship, due to several fitting requirements and large guns... T2* considering its quite a voyage.

deissies are fairly cheaper than battlecruisers thats for sure.. and fitting is kind of cheaper too and its not so skill intensive.